Media report on SA pilot exodus

[sky waiter]

Comm guys who know there licence wasnt a waste?

What about the contract guys who know it was? Or are trying to get into the airline with all this movement, i personaly recon i must be doing something wrong as i dont have airlines phoning me left right and centre...

Bit off topic but need to post something somewhere and try to give the SAA guys a break!!!

[TwinJock]

Nugpot has my vote!!

SAA drivers are definitely overpaid if compared to other local players. The age old lie off "we are so highly trained, that is why we are in such a demand" by SAA spokesman, has been proven to be a lie over and over.

The aviation industry in the USA, Australia, and even the UK, is not what is was a couple of years ago. In the USA FO's are being paid less than burger flippers at the big M - and they continue to find individuals who are willing to work for peanuts. At mainline BA, only the very senior skippers are well paid, while the rest are working their butts off. SAA has not kept up with the times - the aviation industry world wide has changed, but SAA still pays their drivers "parity". Parity, compared to who and what.

The reason for SAA's woes was partly caused by SAAPA's greed! Adapt or die brothers! Oh, by the way, to those SAA training captains that I met this week - welcome to Dubai!

[SAASFO]

Jetnut??

SA and SAA pilots are underpaid by international standards.

I am an SAA pilot and I am marginally overpaid for what I do. Yes, I'd be a Captain at any other airline with around 10 years service, but I am earning around $10,000 a month excluding benefits, and you show me any other airline where a first officer earns that kind of money. However, let's look at a brand new FO at SAA - He or she walks in at the same salary as a Comair Captain (over R500k a year) and this is where SAA's salary structure is seriously skewed. The pay scales are too flat and this is primarily because CJ was on SAAPA as an FO when these pay scales were negotiated and it was in his personal favour for them to be so at the time.

However, our Captain salaries are also too high. Do you realise that SAA pilots are the third highest paid airline pilot group in the world!! And that is before our benefits are taken into account.

As for Twinjock:

The aviation industry in the USA, Australia, and even the UK, is not what is was a couple of years ago.

Which rock are you crawling out from behind? SAA could not have chosen a worst time ever for taking on the pilots. Airlines all over the world are in a pilot shortage crisis, specifically qualified pilots, and it is a matter of time before airlines like Etihad, Emirates, Qatar and the like start pushing up salaries way beyond SAA's to enable themselves to expand at the rate they need to.

[wing tip brakes]

SAA

SAASFO I don't understand the problem everyone has with the junior salaries.
It was set up long ago, thats how it is. I have yet to hear a captain whining that he's getting too much money. apparently this si because of all the managerial duties they have. I only thing they manage is,
1. Do I have one or two cups of coffee before take off
2. What meal should I have tonight
While the Cojo is doing the interior and exterior preflight.

SAASFO if you are overpaid why not stand up at the next SAAPA meeting and propose a pay cut. Is the idea not to save the airline.

[SAASFO]

Wing tip brakes, if all the SAA pilots flew for free the airline would still be going down the tubes - that was not my point.

As for the post I read somewhere about Cargo carrying SAA, try an over R150 million loss on the MD11 freight operation alone in less than a year!!

We will also be taking pay cuts because there is a definite pay freeze for next year which, based on inflation, means an effective 5% to 7% pay cut.

[Avi8tor]

wow SAASFO - I have to hand it to you, at least 1 SAA pilot seems to understand where I and a couple of others in these threads have been coming from.

I would be careful in the parking lot at night, or pay the guard to keep an extra special eye on your car. Some of your friends on here might have it in for you after this.

[rockandroll1]

Twinjock,

What a load of b....cks. You being shafted in the ME is not the problem of decently paid professionals in the UK, most of Europe and so on. You want to be paid even less, good luck - why not try Sri Lanka or something

[fluffyfan]

Avi8tor Mnr...............what is it you have against the pilots of SAA, you have made your descision, now live with it.......please go to the middle East forum, you will find plenty of threads to work with, how is the A380 conversion going?

[Avi8tor]

Come on, is that the best you can come up with Fluffy fan? You have NO reasonable argument, so your solution is to tell somebody to go away? Kinda sad considering that this is a public forum.

I have a vested interest in South Africa, whats more, I would like the wannabees to have the BEST chance in the aviation industry in SA. I have nothing against SAA in general or its pilots in particular. In fact I have some very good friends at SAA. My views are very well stated on this forum and in the pub.

SAA and the other state controlled lose makers are a huge drag on the whole industry. SAA's staff are largely overpaid and under worked and this in spite of being technically insolvent. If it wasn't for BILLIONS of ZAR's from the tax payer it would have been history years ago.

We live in a globalised world, we all would like to see South Africa and its airlines take its share in that market. But it seems that some people don't want to do what it takes because, in the SHORT term, it is against their selfish interests.

The fact that I have packed my bucket and spade and play on a beach, where the tide is always a long way out, wont change the facts.

[wing tip brakes]

SAA

I think SAA pilots should offer the company at least a 20% pay cut. At least show the company you are serious. a reduction in sick leave is just window dressing.

Then all the SAA bashers can relax because they are will be earning more. Its typical of SA whities, you can't let the sun shine on anyone else.

[Avi8tor]

Do they really give you guys a lobotomy when they measure you for your funny hats?

Then all the SAA bashers can relax because they are will be earning more. Its typical of SA whities, you can't let the sun shine on anyone else.

Its not about who earns more than anybody else and its NOT about bashing SAA. Its about that all the private/listed airlines in South Africa have unfair government sponsored competition. Not only that, it then goes on to waste the taxpayers money by overpaying and under working its employees.

This really isn't about me buying a Ferrari or u making the payments on your BMW, it goes a little further than that.

[SAASFO]

At least show the company you are serious

Serious about what?? SAA pilots are leaving to go to other airlines - that shows how serious we are!! SAA management can take any chance of a pay cut and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Until they start running this airline with good corporate governance and stop wasting hundreds of millions through total incompetence, then, if the airline is still losing money we will consider our remuneration position - until then

[nugpot]

I completely agree with you SAASFO. No pilot pay reduction will solve SAA's problems.

because they are will be earning more

wing tip brakes on the other hand maybe should not have been earning anything. Get it into your scull mate - some of us actually think that our salaries are fair and see no reason to ask for parity with SAA. It has nothing to do with sun shining on others, but everything to do with this comment from Jetnut:

SA and SAA pilots are underpaid by international standards.

[sidestick driver]

Saafso

Serious about what?? SAA pilots are leaving to go to other airlines - that shows how serious we are!!

Surely that should read "That shows how serious others are?"

Reading between the lines, it seems as if you're going to ride on the back of others and will never move yourself.

That threat is pointless.

[Avi8tor]

management can take any chance of a pay cut and shove it .........Until they start running this airline with good corporate governance and stop wasting hundreds of millions

And just when I thought you had it sussed. SAA has a fleet of NEW aircraft, good routes, full loads at industry standard yields but yet it continues to make huge losses. SAA also WAY overpays its staff by industry standards.

Any ideas where the 'good corporate governance' should start or do I have to join the dots for u?

[wing tip brakes]

SAA

Avi8tor. Your real confused. When I suggest a pay cut you start talking about lobotomies and funny hats. All you ans others who have moved to greener pastures talk about is how SAA is overpaying the employees. So damned if you do damned if you don't. By the way, an interesting post of yours on CX cargo. You wouldn't get out of bed for that salary. But you whine about SAA overpaying. Maybe CX cargo can't afford the salaries everyone thinks they're entitled to.

If some of the previous replies are anything to go by, no one is serious about making meaningful concessions to the company.

I've heard on numerous occasions people saying that they couldn't afford to pay for the hotels SAA stay at. But SAA is expected to pay. Why not accept a lesser grade hotel. SAA must spend tens of millions on 5star hotel rooms for the shack dwellers. a 3star hotel for them would still be a step up. Surely the savings would be enormous.

On corporate governance, no one is or ever will be accountable at SAA. The reason why private companies make money is, if someone has made a bad decision which costs the company money, they're out the door.

Golf estate house and beach house payed for. 20% cut no problem. By the way going for a walk on the beach right now.

[lol777]

are things that bad at saa

Hi everyone

I am new to pprune as a registered user. But allways read up on all the gossip and news. I just cant help to have joined i must say. o yea and SAASFO i like your views on stuff.
But i have to ask. Firstly i am flying up in Africa. I hear all the st that is going on in SA, and read about it in the news papers when i am lucky enough to get one.
What the hell is happening in SA. I understand that pilots are leaving because of all the crap going on with crime and stuff. But at this point its still hard to get into other countries without ratings or work permits. So was thinking about coming home to try and get into the airlines there and become marketable to the rest of the world. But can i have some of your views of comair,saa and the rest. it seems that there is a bad feeling allround from the guys. And what is happening with the whole restructuring at saa what is that about. Will your jobs at leats be still safe or for only afirmative action guys.
Great website and please guys we sould stand together more as pilots.

[line-driver]

from a different forum and a different part of the world, but SAA, Comair and others, sit up and take notice.

HONG KONG October 28 Sapa-dpa

FLIGHTS GROUNDED AS PILOTS RESIGN FROM HONG KONG'S SECOND AIRLINE

Hong Kong's second-biggest airline, Dragonair, is being forced to
cancel up to eight flights a day as pilots quit the airline in
unprecedented numbers, the airline confirmed Sunday.

Six captains resigned within a week earlier this month, and 34 first
officers or captains have handed in their notice in the last six
months, say pilots who link the departures from the short-haul carrier
to a dispute over rosters and pay.

On October 13, eight flights were cancelled - five between Hong Kong
and Shanghai and two between Hong Kong and Taipei - with crew shortages
cited as the reason in all cases and specifically cockpit crew
shortages cited in two cases.

A year after its 1.5-billion-US-dollar takeover by Cathay Pacific,
cancellations by the airline, which flies to routes around China and
the region, are running at a rate of two a day, pilots say.

Pilots claim the resignations have been sparked by "bullying and
intransigence," saying management have repeatedly refused to implement
rostering agreements to ease the strain on pilots handling a growing
volume of flights.

Dragonair, which has around 400 mostly expatriate pilots and
operates around 100 flights a day, said in a statement Sunday that it
was being impacted by a worldwide shortage of cockpit personnel.

A spokeswoman said that eight cancellations on October 13 were due
to "crew sickness." The airline had already hired 57 new pilots this
year and planned to hire 10 more before the end of the year and another
50 next year, she said.

One senior pilot who has been with Dragonair for more than 10 years
said: "I have never seen morale so low. Pilots are leaving because
they're thoroughly fed up with the management.

"We haven't had a pay rise for seven years, but it's not really a
pay issue. We have asked for a roster agreement for years and years.

Our union has provided two draft agreements, but management just look
at them and nothing happens. The management are bullying and
intransigent."
The pilot, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that eight
cancellations in one day was unprecedented.

"It has usually been about two cancellations a day, but the
situation is clearly getting worse," he said.

Dragonair pilots have imposed a contract compliance policy since
March 2005 in their efforts to secure a rostering agreement, and a
captain familiar with ongoing negotiations between the pilots
association and management said talks were deadlocked.

Another senior pilot said: "The salary for a Dragonair pilot is no
longer competitive because of inflation and the state of the US dollar,
and the rostering situation has become untenable. With the increase in
the flights schedule and the wet leased flights in China, some guys are
doing 14 overnights a month, and they're just fed up with it.

"Our pilots are leaving to join Korean Air, Emirates and even Air
China, which is offering postings based in Australia. In one week, we
had six pilots leave - all of them captains."
A spokeswoman for Dragonair denied that the resignations were linked
to the rostering dispute.

"There are currently more vacancies than there are pilots throughout
the industry," she said. "Therefore, it is not surprising to see a
degree of pilot turnover at Dragonair and many other airlines."
She said that talks have been ongoing with the Dragonair Pilots'
Association "for some time" over issues including pay, conditions and
rostering practices.

"We are awaiting a response from the pilots' representatives to our
offer on the salary and benefits packages, which was made in early
October," the spokeswoman said. "In addition, the company has formed a
team to review the provision of some of the additional benefits
provided to many of its pilots."

Source : Sapa-dpa

[Mark J B]

Sounds like Dragonair management have the same attitude as our local "heavy breathers." Stick your head in the sand and it will all go away! Someone needs to point out that when your head is in the sand, your backside is in the air, and is a great target for a shafting!

[Avi8tor]

But you whine about SAA overpaying. Maybe CX cargo can't afford the salaries everyone thinks they're entitled to.

Neither can SAA!!! I dont believe anybody is 'entitled' to anything. Law of supply and demand.

No confusion, I promise. The issue here is not what SAA staff earn in itself. If SAA was a private company, it could pay what it pleased. Give the tea girl a million rands a month, for all I care. But it isn't, as its only shareholder, I subsidise it.

Whats more in doing so, I create unfair competition for the private/listed airlines. So what we are left with is the 'big dog' Fking up and the rest of the industry unable to fill the gap.

Result: Pilots are worse off.