Media report on SA pilot exodus
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In response to Linedrivers post above. The amazing thing management need to keep in mind is that these guys are not resigning to sit on their thumbs! There are other companies benefitting from this. As there are companies benefitting from the SAA guys leaving. SAA needs to decide whether they want to become like Solenta, a stepping stone on the path to furthering ones career, or do they want to remain a career airline? There are jobs out there, it has never been this good for pilots. The free market forces are at work and the law of supply and demand is in the pilots favour right now and not the companies. Companies with progressive management realize this and are working the market already! Those who dont recognise this or are looking at the short term will lose out with serious repercussions in the future.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAA needs to decide whether they want to become like Solenta, a stepping stone on the path to furthering ones career, or do they want to remain a career airline
Said it before, its business not a flying club. You dont get your name on a wooden plaque in the dinning room for 25yrs membership.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everything cuts two ways. Supply and demand, as in buyers market or sellers market, is cyclical. The question is, where do you want your company to find itself when the music stops? If other companies are prepared to pay decently or provide better packages then you need to ask yourself, what do they know that we may have missed? For a company to be successful today you need a stable, settled workforce pulling together. It is a pointless exercise to continually seek to blame one segment of employees for the poor performance of the whole. Poor performance is an inverted tree in that it has its roots at the top through bad management and/or poor leadership. It makes no sense at all to lose all your experience at one go and think these guys can just be arbitrarily replaced by inexperienced, and in this case certainly, cheaper pilots. When Crandall at American brought in B scales he achieved what SAA now hope to achieve but the process there was gradual, had no political machinations and allowed experience to be retained. The difference was in management with foresight who know that what you do here today will effect where you are next year or five years down the line. What SAA are trying to do now will result in the baby being chucked out with the bath water. I agree wholeheartedly that SAA is not a flying club or benevolent society but I also dont think there is any sane, rational professional pilot, whether he be Captain or F/O, who thinks this is what he belongs to. We are talking about professional people who call themselves this because they truly strive towards these ideals and hey, if they have fun and enjoy their work, then so much the better. One is not professional because you earn money doing something, rather it is in the way one conducts oneself. I have never met an SAA pilot who conducted him/herself any other way. There is no quick fix and if Khaya&co think there is then they will soon be disillusioned. But I dont believe they really want a quick fix. I do believe the cover story runs deeper. The ideal answer is to get people into management who have some foresight, know what they are doing and are not scared to do it. But, we dont live in an ideal world and a lot of what needs to be done will not be popular and will not get votes for the ruling party. These are the puppet-masters who want to retain their own lavish lifestyles and therefore need the votes. I fear the pilots, being predominantly white males, are being sacrificed on the altar of expediency. It is expedient to the ideals of the ANC, who want to "transform" society. The pilots are the group which has been targeted to rush this transformation through. The social engineering experiment is not about righting wrongs from the past. It will carry on as long as it enjoys majority support and gets the votes. It will take a lot of convincing to make me believe the cover story being put forward currently. Look deeper, Khaya is a political appointee. Never forget who is paying him.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
these guys can just be arbitrarily replaced by inexperienced, and in this case certainly, cheaper pilots.
It is expedient to the ideals of the ANC, who want to "transform" society. The pilots are the group which has been targeted to rush this transformation through
I am NOT gonna argue the merits of trying to create 'newly advantaged', but the fact still remains that SAA is a bottomless pit. SAA can't up the revenue side of the equation, so it has to focus on the costs. Its very hard to make fuel any cheaper, aircraft leases are an internationally set cost.
So the next big cost is salaries.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I am NOT gonna argue the merits of trying to create 'newly advantaged', but the fact still remains that SAA is a bottomless pit. SAA can't up the revenue side of the equation, so it has to focus on the costs. Its very hard to make fuel any cheaper, aircraft leases are an internationally set cost."
Av8tor, I have no wish to enter into a mud-slinging match, or any other match for that matter, with you. I am simply excersizing my constitutionally guarenteed right to a free opinion. You make some interesting comments, so here are my comments on them. You dont need to argue the merits, its plain to see. All departments might be facing the chop but the "Glamour" department ie the one the politicians like to see their sons and cronies in, is the pilot pool. I did not intend this to be a political discussion, I was simply stating the obvious.
Please explain, why can't SAA up the revenue side? You can only push the cost issue to a point. Then you have to get positive and show some movement on the revenue side. Ideally, a company should always be watching costs while concentrating on improving revenues. There-in lies the problem with SAA. They have always seen the tax-payers as a bottomless pit and they have been careless with expenditure. Now they want to blame employees for this and expect them to take wholesale cuts while the cost of living is soaring. I guarentee you Khaya will not be taking any cut in salary. When he was asked on 702 a while ago about this issue, he ducked the issue and said his contract is in place and he will be paid according to this. Well, the pilots contracts and everybody elses contracts are also in place. Why should they be making the concessions when he clearly wont?
Fuel is a problem, I will concede that. But every other airline is faced with this same problem.
Surely, with an unstable currency like the ZAR it does not make sense to lease aircraft? Earning in Rands and spending in USD is a bad wicket to be batting on. There is nothing you can do to control currency fluctuations and life then becomes a gamble at best. Buy the aircraft when the currency is strong and selling them or even leasing to others when the currency is weaker makes a whole lot more sense.
Av8tor, I have no wish to enter into a mud-slinging match, or any other match for that matter, with you. I am simply excersizing my constitutionally guarenteed right to a free opinion. You make some interesting comments, so here are my comments on them. You dont need to argue the merits, its plain to see. All departments might be facing the chop but the "Glamour" department ie the one the politicians like to see their sons and cronies in, is the pilot pool. I did not intend this to be a political discussion, I was simply stating the obvious.
Please explain, why can't SAA up the revenue side? You can only push the cost issue to a point. Then you have to get positive and show some movement on the revenue side. Ideally, a company should always be watching costs while concentrating on improving revenues. There-in lies the problem with SAA. They have always seen the tax-payers as a bottomless pit and they have been careless with expenditure. Now they want to blame employees for this and expect them to take wholesale cuts while the cost of living is soaring. I guarentee you Khaya will not be taking any cut in salary. When he was asked on 702 a while ago about this issue, he ducked the issue and said his contract is in place and he will be paid according to this. Well, the pilots contracts and everybody elses contracts are also in place. Why should they be making the concessions when he clearly wont?
Fuel is a problem, I will concede that. But every other airline is faced with this same problem.
Surely, with an unstable currency like the ZAR it does not make sense to lease aircraft? Earning in Rands and spending in USD is a bad wicket to be batting on. There is nothing you can do to control currency fluctuations and life then becomes a gamble at best. Buy the aircraft when the currency is strong and selling them or even leasing to others when the currency is weaker makes a whole lot more sense.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having differing points of view and arguing your point is not called mud slinging, its called healthy debate. I support your rights to your views.
The revenue side is made up of pax numbers x yields. Last time i looked, SAA's flights were largely full. Due to its high costs, SAA can't expand its way out of bankruptcy, cause the costs would increase quicker than the income. SAA tried that last time.
Its very hard to drive up yields when you have competition. Passengers are VERY price sensitive. The internet means that he/she can surf each airlines website and come up with the cheapest fare. So walk away from CDG/ZRH/LHR and fly to the S
t holes in Africa where you can largely charge what you like, and in $$$$$. Its a good plan, but got trashed on these pages.
You are quite right, ask Airlink/SAX and SAA. All have seen their backsides with that trick. As its only Nationwide that has a big enough cash pile to buy old aircraft cash, all airlines are stuck in the same boat. But its very hard to borrow money locally, the interest rates in SA are relatively high. If in doubt, look at your bond this month.
So get your best finance and legal people and squeeze the manufacturer. RF scored an awesome deal on the J41's. Sadly it all went south when the ERJ's arrived.
Your other option is to stick with old low capital aircraft and pay the fuel bill. But at over $90 a barrel, thats a no brainer.
Good idea, but what would SAA do for aircraft then?
Please explain, why can't SAA up the revenue side?
Its very hard to drive up yields when you have competition. Passengers are VERY price sensitive. The internet means that he/she can surf each airlines website and come up with the cheapest fare. So walk away from CDG/ZRH/LHR and fly to the S
t holes in Africa where you can largely charge what you like, and in $$$$$. Its a good plan, but got trashed on these pages.
Surely, with an unstable currency like the ZAR it does not make sense to lease aircraft? Earning in Rands and spending in USD is a bad wicket to be batting on
So get your best finance and legal people and squeeze the manufacturer. RF scored an awesome deal on the J41's. Sadly it all went south when the ERJ's arrived.
Your other option is to stick with old low capital aircraft and pay the fuel bill. But at over $90 a barrel, thats a no brainer.
There is nothing you can do to control currency fluctuations and life then becomes a gamble at best. Buy the aircraft when the currency is strong and selling them or even leasing to others when the currency is weaker makes a whole lot more sense
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avi8tor, I like where this is going. To increase revenue with flights already full, you need to be increasing the number of flights. The old adage of throwing aircraft at the problem. SAA should have been acquiring more aircraft, more routes to operate them on, more crew to operate the aircraft, etc. They need to adopt an outward based philosophy instead of constantly looking inward. They need to be concentrating on long-haul, do away with domestic(there are enough other options in the domestic market, incl Mango) and getting inventive. Look at what Outsurance did for the insurance market. Think along these lines. In other words, think outside the box! The biggest problem at SAA is the ratio of personnel to aircraft in the fleet. These personnel could have been absorbed by steady growth 'sbefore things got out of hand. We have a problem in SA and that an unfortunate geographic position. To overcome this it would be necessary to create new opportunities. India-SA-Brazil is an ideal opportunity as, for the first time, SA is a gateway and not the end of the line. Look to the Middle and Far-East. The new opportunities (to expand)are there and not with the traditional North-South run and not by getting insular with Africa. The danger of becoming another regional carrier is too big. China is SA(and the worlds) biggest trading partner. The opportunities in pax and freight are there. I also tried to illustrate how SAA management have always been reactive and not proactive. Get people in there who are visionary and willing to work and take calculated risks and SAA CAN succeed. If SAA do not grab these opportunities, someone else will.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The old adage of throwing aircraft at the problem. SAA should have been acquiring more aircraft, more routes to operate them on, more crew to operate the aircraft
We have a problem in SA and that an unfortunate geographic position. To overcome this it would be necessary to create new opportunities. India-SA-Brazil is an ideal opportunity as, for the first time, SA is a gateway and not the end of the line
SAA needs to get leaner and meaner before it can look to expand. But lets hope by then it will have shareholders not taxpayers.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would you lower yourself to the level of us mere mortals and share some of your considerable wisdom with us BP?
Oh no wait, when you don't like what somebody says but you have NO argument, u get personal.
Oh no wait, when you don't like what somebody says but you have NO argument, u get personal.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh thank God.....someone who makes sense....Jamex, awsome post
Aviator, I have been frustrated by your posts because while you do have some merit in your argument your position seems to only apply to the pilots at SAA, let me ask you, were you so militant about the "overpaid Pilots" when you were at SAA.
Moving away from the current discussion perhaps you could explain the Cadet programme to us seeing as a while back you implied you had something to do with the whole thing (interviewing people etc), perhaps you can explain how white sons and daughters of relativley well off businessmen and training Captains managed to get into the cadet programme, the most glaring one that springs to mind is a young cadet who has a family of training Captains at SAA, the family also happens to own a small fleet of aircraft, the above mentioned cadet took full advantage of the Cadet programme, it cost the company x amount, once the training was over the cadet decided SAA was not the way and promptly left, only to regret the descision and attempt to get back in and I believe interview number 2 was conducted just the other day for the 3rd time.
You say you believe in giving the young people a chance and movement is good for all concerned, who's chance did you take away when you admitted the above mentioned cadet into the programme, it just seems that the whole cadet programme was a window dressing exercise and another way to screw the company into paying for someone who did not really need the help ......quite simply corruption and nepotisim.
You come across as the caped crusader for movement in the airline however the problems I have are that you seem to have 2 standards, one for yourself and one for everone else.
Aviator, I have been frustrated by your posts because while you do have some merit in your argument your position seems to only apply to the pilots at SAA, let me ask you, were you so militant about the "overpaid Pilots" when you were at SAA.
Moving away from the current discussion perhaps you could explain the Cadet programme to us seeing as a while back you implied you had something to do with the whole thing (interviewing people etc), perhaps you can explain how white sons and daughters of relativley well off businessmen and training Captains managed to get into the cadet programme, the most glaring one that springs to mind is a young cadet who has a family of training Captains at SAA, the family also happens to own a small fleet of aircraft, the above mentioned cadet took full advantage of the Cadet programme, it cost the company x amount, once the training was over the cadet decided SAA was not the way and promptly left, only to regret the descision and attempt to get back in and I believe interview number 2 was conducted just the other day for the 3rd time.
You say you believe in giving the young people a chance and movement is good for all concerned, who's chance did you take away when you admitted the above mentioned cadet into the programme, it just seems that the whole cadet programme was a window dressing exercise and another way to screw the company into paying for someone who did not really need the help ......quite simply corruption and nepotisim.
You come across as the caped crusader for movement in the airline however the problems I have are that you seem to have 2 standards, one for yourself and one for everone else.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some very large leaps there friend, and some huge assumptions.
Think you have read into my posts what you want to see. I have said on a number of occasions that I think SAA is largely over paid and under worked, top to bottom. Pilots, Check-in staff etc. This is NOT about pilot bashing. My concerns of hyper pay increases and growing staff numers at SAA are a matter of record. I have warned that this would all end in tears. The standard response from pilots was "not to worry, the government will always pay, its SAA"
I will say it again for the record, I really hope that a privatised SAA makes a huge success and can pay all its staff a gazillion ZAR's.
I am largely very critical of the cadet program and have, in more than one post, called it expensive window dressing. The return on the investment is piss poor. The scheme should be to help the previously disadvantaged. It in NO way does that, the fact that a minister's nephew, the chairman of BP SA's son is paid for by the tax payer is truly pathetic. The fact that MOST of the white cadets have some connection to SAA makes the thing a joke. A 'means test' should be put in place, I told CR that after SAA1.
So again, lets stick to having good fun healthy debate on the BEST way forward. This concept that 'when I run out of argument, I attack the other guy on a personal level', thats very 4th grade playground stuff.
Think you have read into my posts what you want to see. I have said on a number of occasions that I think SAA is largely over paid and under worked, top to bottom. Pilots, Check-in staff etc. This is NOT about pilot bashing. My concerns of hyper pay increases and growing staff numers at SAA are a matter of record. I have warned that this would all end in tears. The standard response from pilots was "not to worry, the government will always pay, its SAA"
I will say it again for the record, I really hope that a privatised SAA makes a huge success and can pay all its staff a gazillion ZAR's.
I am largely very critical of the cadet program and have, in more than one post, called it expensive window dressing. The return on the investment is piss poor. The scheme should be to help the previously disadvantaged. It in NO way does that, the fact that a minister's nephew, the chairman of BP SA's son is paid for by the tax payer is truly pathetic. The fact that MOST of the white cadets have some connection to SAA makes the thing a joke. A 'means test' should be put in place, I told CR that after SAA1.
So again, lets stick to having good fun healthy debate on the BEST way forward. This concept that 'when I run out of argument, I attack the other guy on a personal level', thats very 4th grade playground stuff.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
China is SA(and the worlds) biggest trading partner. The opportunities in pax and freight are there.
SAA haven't a hope if that's where they think their salvation lies.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: North
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes....some large assumptions, I am possibly wrong with my idea of your identity, I do find it hard to believe that you took the moral stance while the Cadet programme was being abused under your nose. However I admit I do not know the whole story and I am possibly doing you an injustice with my implied accusations.........if this is so I apologise.
Lets just agree to disagree, the one thought that keeps recuring in my mind is that the pilots are not to blame for SAA's woes, the blame rests with management, the pilots just want a fair remuneration so that we dont have to look to other countries to make the most of ourselves, the union has possibly been too successful but I dont believe the pilots should pay the price of a failing SAA, it must be across the board and part of the negotiation at the moment are that management recieves no bonus whilst concessions are given...........the pilots are more than willing to negotiate, lets face it we are the ones who truly care about the long term health of the company its our careers, Khaya and his buddies will move on and plunder other organisations.
Lets just agree to disagree, the one thought that keeps recuring in my mind is that the pilots are not to blame for SAA's woes, the blame rests with management, the pilots just want a fair remuneration so that we dont have to look to other countries to make the most of ourselves, the union has possibly been too successful but I dont believe the pilots should pay the price of a failing SAA, it must be across the board and part of the negotiation at the moment are that management recieves no bonus whilst concessions are given...........the pilots are more than willing to negotiate, lets face it we are the ones who truly care about the long term health of the company its our careers, Khaya and his buddies will move on and plunder other organisations.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In front of the PC
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R80 mil net profit......................................with a little help from my friends tadadada
!!!!!
what now SAASFO!!
!!!!!
Finance24
R744m SAA payout 'unforseen'
2007-10-30 14:45
Cape Town - Among the "unforeseeable and unavoidable" spending noted by Treasury halfway through the 2007/08 financial year is over R744m paid by the department of public enterprises to SA Airways. According to the 2007 Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure, tabled by Finance Minister Trevor Manuel on Tuesday, the department paid the national carrier R744.4m for "costs associated with restructuring (R653m plus R91.4m VAT)".
This was the single largest instance of unavoidable spending of the total R3.8bn noted in the document.
R744m SAA payout 'unforseen'
2007-10-30 14:45
Cape Town - Among the "unforeseeable and unavoidable" spending noted by Treasury halfway through the 2007/08 financial year is over R744m paid by the department of public enterprises to SA Airways. According to the 2007 Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure, tabled by Finance Minister Trevor Manuel on Tuesday, the department paid the national carrier R744.4m for "costs associated with restructuring (R653m plus R91.4m VAT)".
This was the single largest instance of unavoidable spending of the total R3.8bn noted in the document.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Joburg
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The R80 million excludes restructuring funding and is the operational profit after tax.
The restructuring funding has to do with buying the airline out of the myriad of onerous agreements and contracts entered into by previous management but has nothing to do with day to day operations.
The restructuring funding has to do with buying the airline out of the myriad of onerous agreements and contracts entered into by previous management but has nothing to do with day to day operations.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai
Age: 56
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The R80 million excludes restructuring funding and is the operational profit after tax
Just to put that in to perspective, most airlines breakeven is about 50-55% load factor. I seem to remember seeing SAA load factor figure of 70%+. SAA should be printing cash.