Mango - all you need to know about it (threads merged)
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In "Sake 24" today Mango has an advertisement where they introduce "Top Class", which is apparently focussed on business travellers which provides flexibility to make changes on tickets without paying extra, 30kg luggage, access to Prima lounges and free food and drinks.
Interestingly there was a small article yesterday claiming that Mango and 1Time is the only airlines that gained market share in the last few months...very good on 1Time!!!
Interestingly there was a small article yesterday claiming that Mango and 1Time is the only airlines that gained market share in the last few months...very good on 1Time!!!
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Not surprised at all by this development. As I said in my previous posts(see SAA explaining to parliament) Mango was created to bust the unions at SAA. Nice clean start without all those pesky unions making demands. It goes further too. Mango continues to make a profit while being run like SAA should be run while SAA continues to wave the flag and pioneer new routes whereever Thabo happens to sign bi-laterals. The plan is obviously to scale SAA down and Mango up. Next move, Mango applies for long-haul routes and gets them along with some nice cosy slots at LHR "given" to them by SAA of course in the interests of "fair play". Lets face it, p
sspoor management at SAA have, in their twisted minds, formed the impression that the guys working their butts off (the pilots) are the enemy. They must be knocked back into their holes at all costs! Unfortunately, a once proud airline is reduced to nothing and "they"(management) will be the heroes and , yet again, the pilots are the villain in the piece. The New, Improved, South African way!
sspoor management at SAA have, in their twisted minds, formed the impression that the guys working their butts off (the pilots) are the enemy. They must be knocked back into their holes at all costs! Unfortunately, a once proud airline is reduced to nothing and "they"(management) will be the heroes and , yet again, the pilots are the villain in the piece. The New, Improved, South African way!
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heard this week Mango are loosing money, because their midday flights are not full. They have signed a contract with SAA to fly SAA freight to make up their shortfall. Then everyone is surprised when SAA is running at a loss
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The only reason Mango will be able to show ANY profit, will be because of SAA (and the Taxpayer) standing behind it.
NOT BECAUSE IT IS IN ANY WAY BETTER MANAGED.
The B737-800's are leased from SAA at HALF the Rand/US$ exchange rate that SAA are leasing them! The difference is simply a loss to SAA and will be covered by the taxpayer.
If Mango needs cash they "borrow'' from SAA and pay back when they can - if they can. Shortfalls or interest loss will be for the SAA books.
As a bussiness, SAA simply does not have the right to exist.
They have been bankrupt over and over, for years and years.
And Mango will just end up being a ''mini-me'' of SAA.
CLOSE DOWN ALL STATE COMPETITION WITH THE PRIVATE SECTOR, SO THAT NORMAL BUSSINESS CAN BE DONE.
Just imagine the state opening its own shopping malls to compete with the private sector, and subsidising the goods on sale with taxpayers money.
Then they lose even more money because they don't know how to run a chain of malls and the taxpayer must bail them out.
Even worse! The privately owned malls, that HAVE to make money or close down, must pay taxes on their profit and will therefore be subsidising the staterun competition!
That's no different than what's going on in the SA airline industry..........
NOT BECAUSE IT IS IN ANY WAY BETTER MANAGED.
The B737-800's are leased from SAA at HALF the Rand/US$ exchange rate that SAA are leasing them! The difference is simply a loss to SAA and will be covered by the taxpayer.
If Mango needs cash they "borrow'' from SAA and pay back when they can - if they can. Shortfalls or interest loss will be for the SAA books.
As a bussiness, SAA simply does not have the right to exist.
They have been bankrupt over and over, for years and years.
And Mango will just end up being a ''mini-me'' of SAA.
CLOSE DOWN ALL STATE COMPETITION WITH THE PRIVATE SECTOR, SO THAT NORMAL BUSSINESS CAN BE DONE.
Just imagine the state opening its own shopping malls to compete with the private sector, and subsidising the goods on sale with taxpayers money.
Then they lose even more money because they don't know how to run a chain of malls and the taxpayer must bail them out.
Even worse! The privately owned malls, that HAVE to make money or close down, must pay taxes on their profit and will therefore be subsidising the staterun competition!
That's no different than what's going on in the SA airline industry..........
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Amen Brother.... couldn't agree more.
I disagree with you on the closing down part. Keep the SAA/Mango brands. Sell Mango as is. Merge SAX/Link into one regional/domestic feeder in private hands, with SAA code share. Dump/reduce SAA domestic service. Allow SAA to concentrate on Africa/international routes.
Not sure if you would sell of techical/ground handling seperatly or not. But once SAA was back on its feet, list it.
I disagree with you on the closing down part. Keep the SAA/Mango brands. Sell Mango as is. Merge SAX/Link into one regional/domestic feeder in private hands, with SAA code share. Dump/reduce SAA domestic service. Allow SAA to concentrate on Africa/international routes.
Not sure if you would sell of techical/ground handling seperatly or not. But once SAA was back on its feet, list it.
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Don't believe all those stories you hear in bar while you are getting vrot
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The Star today:
Is Mango planting seed for local takeover or Swiss rescue?
September 14, 2007
Is Mango's new Top Blass service, which is apparently aimed at the small and medium business market, merely the first step in a strategy aimed at letting SAA's low-cost airline take over its parent's entire share of the domestic market - thus leaving the full-service airline free to fly the international market?
Or is it the start of Plan B - leading to a leaner, more cost-effective national carrier based on Mango if the business plan to turn SAA around does not succeed?
According to Mango's website, Top Class fares are well below the minimum economy fare charged by any of the full-service airlines. They include use of a lounge, meals, a bigger baggage allowance and - the main advantage for business travellers - flexibility to change flight times without penalty.
Mango's decision to compete directly with SAA in the domestic market has puzzled many people - but allowing it to take over the domestic business would make sense.
Mango's management includes executives who were with SAA before its current difficulties. They have experience in running a full service international operation.
There is a similarity between this situation and the bankruptcy of SAA's former strategic equity partner, Swissair. Swissair's domestic operation and its most profitable international routes, including that between Zurich and Johannesburg, formed the business basis of the successful new national carrier, Swiss International Airlines.
Shall we see the same situation here? Or is the launch of Mango's Top Class merely a warning to the unions with which SAA is negotiating to cut down its workforce, and reduce the cost of working conditions and perks?
Is Mango planting seed for local takeover or Swiss rescue?
September 14, 2007
Is Mango's new Top Blass service, which is apparently aimed at the small and medium business market, merely the first step in a strategy aimed at letting SAA's low-cost airline take over its parent's entire share of the domestic market - thus leaving the full-service airline free to fly the international market?
Or is it the start of Plan B - leading to a leaner, more cost-effective national carrier based on Mango if the business plan to turn SAA around does not succeed?
According to Mango's website, Top Class fares are well below the minimum economy fare charged by any of the full-service airlines. They include use of a lounge, meals, a bigger baggage allowance and - the main advantage for business travellers - flexibility to change flight times without penalty.
Mango's decision to compete directly with SAA in the domestic market has puzzled many people - but allowing it to take over the domestic business would make sense.
Mango's management includes executives who were with SAA before its current difficulties. They have experience in running a full service international operation.
There is a similarity between this situation and the bankruptcy of SAA's former strategic equity partner, Swissair. Swissair's domestic operation and its most profitable international routes, including that between Zurich and Johannesburg, formed the business basis of the successful new national carrier, Swiss International Airlines.
Shall we see the same situation here? Or is the launch of Mango's Top Class merely a warning to the unions with which SAA is negotiating to cut down its workforce, and reduce the cost of working conditions and perks?
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I heard Mango HAD to take the 737s from SAA and that initial loan. They were offered cheaper loans.
There was also a deal where Mango were using SAA dispatch and ramp agents, but being charged. They now have their own agents and are using a centralised dispatch in Joburg.
I also heard Mango are looking for other 737's because the lease costs are so high.
I really don't think it's a case of Mango attempting to take away SAA business with this Top Class deal. They are mearly offering a more convient service to their passengers.... in my opinion improving their service.
On the other hand, SAA's service is just deteriorating. You are still paying the same amount of money for your ticket, but now getting less. The food is shocking and with a limited bar service, you are actually better of buying something in the terminal building. SAA are also operating with 1 crew member less on domestic and a few more less on international flights. Less crew means less time they have to attend to passengers.
Best of all, I notice the guys that complain the most about SAA and Mango using taxpayers money ,are the ones siting overseas. The tax I pay (and those other law abiding South African residents) does not go directly into SAAs pockets. It goes to our governent!
SAA has been around for 70 odd years and I dont think it has ever made a profit. Under the old goverment, SAA used to fly around the bulge and would carry 30 odd passengers in a 747 between European destinations. How could that have been profitable? Same thing happens now, just carrying 30 odd passengers between Abidjan and Accra!!
Mango employ about 50 pilots and SAA around 800. That's 850 South African families that depend on these airlines to succeed.
There is more to life than sitting in the desert worrying about how much of the tax money (which you aren't paying) is keeping these companies afloat. Go kiss a camel !!
There was also a deal where Mango were using SAA dispatch and ramp agents, but being charged. They now have their own agents and are using a centralised dispatch in Joburg.
I also heard Mango are looking for other 737's because the lease costs are so high.
I really don't think it's a case of Mango attempting to take away SAA business with this Top Class deal. They are mearly offering a more convient service to their passengers.... in my opinion improving their service.
On the other hand, SAA's service is just deteriorating. You are still paying the same amount of money for your ticket, but now getting less. The food is shocking and with a limited bar service, you are actually better of buying something in the terminal building. SAA are also operating with 1 crew member less on domestic and a few more less on international flights. Less crew means less time they have to attend to passengers.
Best of all, I notice the guys that complain the most about SAA and Mango using taxpayers money ,are the ones siting overseas. The tax I pay (and those other law abiding South African residents) does not go directly into SAAs pockets. It goes to our governent!
SAA has been around for 70 odd years and I dont think it has ever made a profit. Under the old goverment, SAA used to fly around the bulge and would carry 30 odd passengers in a 747 between European destinations. How could that have been profitable? Same thing happens now, just carrying 30 odd passengers between Abidjan and Accra!!
Mango employ about 50 pilots and SAA around 800. That's 850 South African families that depend on these airlines to succeed.
There is more to life than sitting in the desert worrying about how much of the tax money (which you aren't paying) is keeping these companies afloat. Go kiss a camel !!
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Boypilot you are a twit
50 families depend on the income of Mango pilots.... fair enough. What about the 50+ families that depend on 1time pilots. The 50+ families that depend on the Nationwide pilots. The 50+ families that depend on the Comair pilots. The pilots that are flying for companies that have to compete in a market against each other without Big brother throwing bucketloads of cash at them to survive.
Wether the previous poster is sitting in the desert in the Middle East, A high rise apartment in Hong Kong, a tiny flat in London or on the beach in Cape Town is irrelevant. wether he is paying taxes or not is also of no importance. People say it as they see it and most posts on here are relatively educated.
What happens to our tax Rands here in South Africa is of HUGE importance. The money that the government squanders on supporting institutions that it shouldn't be can be of far better use ie security of your family while you are away on a nightstop somewhere!
Go kiss a springbok
50 families depend on the income of Mango pilots.... fair enough. What about the 50+ families that depend on 1time pilots. The 50+ families that depend on the Nationwide pilots. The 50+ families that depend on the Comair pilots. The pilots that are flying for companies that have to compete in a market against each other without Big brother throwing bucketloads of cash at them to survive.
Wether the previous poster is sitting in the desert in the Middle East, A high rise apartment in Hong Kong, a tiny flat in London or on the beach in Cape Town is irrelevant. wether he is paying taxes or not is also of no importance. People say it as they see it and most posts on here are relatively educated.
What happens to our tax Rands here in South Africa is of HUGE importance. The money that the government squanders on supporting institutions that it shouldn't be can be of far better use ie security of your family while you are away on a nightstop somewhere!
Go kiss a springbok
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Just becuase I am sunning myself in my Jumeira villa doesn't mean i have NO financial interests in SA. All my SA dealings are taxed at source, so that means I still pay a fair amout of SA tax. I have every right to have an opinion on how its spent.
And wasting it on airlines is NOT how I would like it to be spent, thank you very much.
Unless SAA has a crafty plan to ditch SAA domestic all together, its brain dead.
And wasting it on airlines is NOT how I would like it to be spent, thank you very much.
Unless SAA has a crafty plan to ditch SAA domestic all together, its brain dead.
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To the mad and bad one out there
Granted , each airline comes with its own pros,cons and risks whether that be 1Time,NTW,SAA,Mango,Comair etc- we all have our own choices to make in that regard.
1. Spare a thought for those SAA pilots and their families whose jobs are under threat during these trying times - or do you subscribe to the belief that they are merely getting what they deserve? What about the other 2500 odd other staff members and their families ?- or are they also getting what they deserve ??
2. The fight on crime ,or lack thereof, has nothing to do with a shortfall in the fiscal budget caused by SAA
3. Were you really so concerned about your tax rand when the aircraft still had bright orange tails -or were you to young to earn an income then but still young enough to dream of flying one.
4. I am reasonably certain that the said 2500 odd SAA employees contribute more to RSA state coffers in income tax than most of you earning a living in a tax free haven.
I am afraid that only those that pay are entitled to an educated ,subjective opinion.
Enjoy life at FL350 - thats an awful long way to fall ....but I hope you never do.
Suitcaseman - I agree 100%-
probably by EK with all those additional sectors -
So as for all the SAA staff still being employed but not on taxpayers money - I'm not so sure!
About Mango- I refer you to Qantas after the arrival of Vigin Blue .It's time for some objective perspective here.
so much for educated posts
Springboks 36 - England 0
Granted , each airline comes with its own pros,cons and risks whether that be 1Time,NTW,SAA,Mango,Comair etc- we all have our own choices to make in that regard.
1. Spare a thought for those SAA pilots and their families whose jobs are under threat during these trying times - or do you subscribe to the belief that they are merely getting what they deserve? What about the other 2500 odd other staff members and their families ?- or are they also getting what they deserve ??
2. The fight on crime ,or lack thereof, has nothing to do with a shortfall in the fiscal budget caused by SAA
3. Were you really so concerned about your tax rand when the aircraft still had bright orange tails -or were you to young to earn an income then but still young enough to dream of flying one.
4. I am reasonably certain that the said 2500 odd SAA employees contribute more to RSA state coffers in income tax than most of you earning a living in a tax free haven.
I am afraid that only those that pay are entitled to an educated ,subjective opinion.
Enjoy life at FL350 - thats an awful long way to fall ....but I hope you never do.
Suitcaseman - I agree 100%
-probably by EK with all those additional sectors -
So as for all the SAA staff still being employed but not on taxpayers money - I'm not so sure!
About Mango- I refer you to Qantas after the arrival of Vigin Blue .It's time for some objective perspective here.
so much for educated posts
Springboks 36 - England 0
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suitcaseman
I guess if I was 43 years old flying a glorified taxi for a couple of self-appointed sand royals who don't have a consistent schedule, and who expect the loyalty of a well-trained Alsation, I'd also have a couple of chips on my shoulders...
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Spare a thought for those SAA pilots and their families whose jobs are under threat during these trying times - or do you subscribe to the belief that they are merely getting what they deserve
Sorry guys, not alot of sympathy here. If you poke the pooch to death,thats what happens.
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There are times in life that you'll get punnished for being stupid.
For 10 years I've been telling all my mates at SAA that the airline is doomed on the path it's on.
Their answer? "We fly the flag! SAA will NEVER close down! None of the other airlines will be able to do the job!''
Remember PanAm? They closed down.
They were also one of the oldest airlines in the world.
Carry on guys!
After speaking with a pilot from Delta now with EK in DBX. Here's my advice.
If they offer you a lump sum - take it and move on.
Delta did the same, some pilots walked off with up to 1,5mil US$!
Then later came the lay-off's........those guys got squat! Put on early retirement. Some lost part of their company pension.
The guy I spoke with was one of the latter. He's now doing a retirement stint to get some $$$ for later years.
Wake up!
For 10 years I've been telling all my mates at SAA that the airline is doomed on the path it's on.
Their answer? "We fly the flag! SAA will NEVER close down! None of the other airlines will be able to do the job!''
Remember PanAm? They closed down.
They were also one of the oldest airlines in the world.
Carry on guys!
After speaking with a pilot from Delta now with EK in DBX. Here's my advice.
If they offer you a lump sum - take it and move on.
Delta did the same, some pilots walked off with up to 1,5mil US$!
Then later came the lay-off's........those guys got squat! Put on early retirement. Some lost part of their company pension.
The guy I spoke with was one of the latter. He's now doing a retirement stint to get some $$$ for later years.
Wake up!
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Boypilot
Just to correct one or two of your misconceptions...
FirstlyI am not sunning myself in a tax free haven somewhere but have my feet firmly on the ground here in SA paying my taxes.
Secondly my post in no way was directed at the pilots of SAA or Mango.
There are many fine gentlemen flying for both aforementioned airlines and good luck to them for having managed to negotiate the packages that they have.
It was merely to remind you that your argument seemed to forget that there are other pilots out there who provide for families (without taxpayer assistance).
Lastly, in your first post you mentioned that our tax Rands are NOT going to SAA but the government. Is it then safe to assume that none of it is being used to prop up our state carrier?
Just to correct one or two of your misconceptions...
FirstlyI am not sunning myself in a tax free haven somewhere but have my feet firmly on the ground here in SA paying my taxes.
Secondly my post in no way was directed at the pilots of SAA or Mango.
There are many fine gentlemen flying for both aforementioned airlines and good luck to them for having managed to negotiate the packages that they have.
It was merely to remind you that your argument seemed to forget that there are other pilots out there who provide for families (without taxpayer assistance).
Lastly, in your first post you mentioned that our tax Rands are NOT going to SAA but the government. Is it then safe to assume that none of it is being used to prop up our state carrier?
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Mango (Tulca) 169
I am a non-regular reader (I have better things to do with my off time). Comments I heard on FACT APP freq 119.7 last night though merit registration and mention on Pprune.
Briefly – the crew of Mango 169 commented that the controller “must be under training” followed by something about “lack of capability”. The crew went on the say that the “previous controller had it all worked out”, followed by (after the ATC said that the extra track miles were for spacing on final) – “WHY DIDN’T YOU TELL US – WE WOULD HAVE DONE IT OURSELVES”.
A fellow aviator telling a controller that “they could have done it themselves”!!!!!! ?????
I have never in my all my years been embarrassed of one of our own - last night was a 1st!! The last comment I think shows a certain mentality – something I thought was done away with after the KLM tenerife accident!!
I have a good mind to write to Mango ops also – the PIC’s name wasn’t hard to find…
Bickering and name calling should be reserved for the play pen – NOT the frequency!! Never will a situation warrant the poor display of airmanship I heard last night!
L.T.D.
Briefly – the crew of Mango 169 commented that the controller “must be under training” followed by something about “lack of capability”. The crew went on the say that the “previous controller had it all worked out”, followed by (after the ATC said that the extra track miles were for spacing on final) – “WHY DIDN’T YOU TELL US – WE WOULD HAVE DONE IT OURSELVES”.
A fellow aviator telling a controller that “they could have done it themselves”!!!!!! ?????
I have never in my all my years been embarrassed of one of our own - last night was a 1st!! The last comment I think shows a certain mentality – something I thought was done away with after the KLM tenerife accident!!
I have a good mind to write to Mango ops also – the PIC’s name wasn’t hard to find…
Bickering and name calling should be reserved for the play pen – NOT the frequency!! Never will a situation warrant the poor display of airmanship I heard last night!
L.T.D.
Last edited by left10degrees; 14th Jan 2008 at 15:27.
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While I agree that it is unproffesional to chirp ATC, sometimes you must also understand their possible frustration.
Often what happens - atc tell you high speed number one, for which you plan your descent. At the last minute they change their mind (for whatever reason) and you end up low level burning unnecessary fuel and track miles. Had they been notified timeously they could have slowed down long before thus shortening the track miles for spacing.
Often what happens - atc tell you high speed number one, for which you plan your descent. At the last minute they change their mind (for whatever reason) and you end up low level burning unnecessary fuel and track miles. Had they been notified timeously they could have slowed down long before thus shortening the track miles for spacing.
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1st posting.....hmmm...
but agree, keep the bickering of how ATC stuffed up a good plan inside the cockpit, and if it warrants it, file a report afterwards once all is calm and in perspective, but doing the childish thing and broadcasting it openly over the frequency is a bit low class.
but agree, keep the bickering of how ATC stuffed up a good plan inside the cockpit, and if it warrants it, file a report afterwards once all is calm and in perspective, but doing the childish thing and broadcasting it openly over the frequency is a bit low class.
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Joburg ATC
To be fair to our ATC's, things have definitely changed over the past three years or so. Especially within the last two months . Lots of direct to the CI routings with no speeds, as well as 03L 
Although, having just come from Hong Kong recently I was highly impressed. It works like a well-oiled machine...with no hitch, minimum track miles and a constant descent. Looking at the traffic on the ND one sees at least 10 times the number of aircraft as would be seen in Joburg.
But, I do however agree with the original post. Very unprofessional of the Mango crew to behave in that way. If you are having a bad day with the wife, or peed of with Eskom's load shedding, at least maintain dignity, and leave our ATC's out of it!
Although, having just come from Hong Kong recently I was highly impressed. It works like a well-oiled machine...with no hitch, minimum track miles and a constant descent. Looking at the traffic on the ND one sees at least 10 times the number of aircraft as would be seen in Joburg.
But, I do however agree with the original post. Very unprofessional of the Mango crew to behave in that way. If you are having a bad day with the wife, or peed of with Eskom's load shedding, at least maintain dignity, and leave our ATC's out of it!