SAA to hire foreigners!!!
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Originally Posted by Shrike200
The actual irony here is that you didn't grasp what everybody is arguing about - we're talking about BEE/AA being used to advantage black people from OTHER African countries - not SA. We understand that problems with OUR past for OUR citizens must be adressed - just not why other African citizens should benefit from our attempts to do so.
So, in conclusion - Think about it lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking...(in other words, take your own advice)
So, in conclusion - Think about it lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking...(in other words, take your own advice)
Your answer, such as your previous arguments should be telling.
In anticipation then...thanks.
NC43
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Ok, perhaps you referred to the the fact the we supposedly voted for our current president. I felt your post wasn't clear on that. In any case, I think you'll find it unspoken that many (if not most) white people here didn't vote for the ANC and their inane policies - this subject being a good example. Our vote is too small to mean very much, so (as you may have seen in this thread alone), black people will refer to them as 'my government', while whites will refer to them as 'your government'. Hence I, and possibly others, didn't even consider fluffyfans statement ironic at all.
Thats quite enough from me then.
Thats quite enough from me then.
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NC43 ..........yes, well, OK, not 100% sure what you are refering to.
My point at the risk of reiterating what a few people on this thread have already said is how can anyone justify a foreign pilot getting a job in the State airline, before a local pilot soley based on the colour of there skin? you cant justify it simple.
Our situation is unique in the world, it is very difficult for anyone who has not lived/worked here to understand the problems we have or go through here, so although I value comments from people in the UK and abroad, you may be basing your comments on what you percieve South Africa to be like, and your good old days of marching on South Africa House with a sign that read "Free Mandela". My advice to you lad, is maybe you should look to your own respecive countries before you start throwing stones here, I believe you have large racial issues in France, the UK, the USA, Australia, you name it, we in SA are trying to solve our problems, we just dont agree on some of the methods used.
My point at the risk of reiterating what a few people on this thread have already said is how can anyone justify a foreign pilot getting a job in the State airline, before a local pilot soley based on the colour of there skin? you cant justify it simple.
Our situation is unique in the world, it is very difficult for anyone who has not lived/worked here to understand the problems we have or go through here, so although I value comments from people in the UK and abroad, you may be basing your comments on what you percieve South Africa to be like, and your good old days of marching on South Africa House with a sign that read "Free Mandela". My advice to you lad, is maybe you should look to your own respecive countries before you start throwing stones here, I believe you have large racial issues in France, the UK, the USA, Australia, you name it, we in SA are trying to solve our problems, we just dont agree on some of the methods used.
Last edited by fluffyfan; 20th May 2006 at 20:19.
Gatvol
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" how can anyone justify a foreign pilot getting a job in the State airline, before a local pilot soley based on the colour of there skin? you cant justify it simple."
Fluffster, point well made, however those who are NOW running the show don't have to justify squat.......and honestly, not much you can do about it.....
Fluffster, point well made, however those who are NOW running the show don't have to justify squat.......and honestly, not much you can do about it.....
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Fluffyfan
The irony of which I spoke was that you were whining about how the Zims voted, made their beds and now should have to lie without realising what you were saying because the same thing has happened in SA. You perhaps have not voted for the current govt but others have and an outsider could equally say that you have made your beds and should lie in it. I have not thrown any stones as you will see should you care to read what I wrote...not a problem for me if you react the way you do if anyone makes a comment about SA...time to grow up and start removing those chips...Difficult if you don't understand 'irony' of what you were saying....so perhaps I shan't go further.
I have already stated that one has sympathy for your situation; it is not right in the slightest but the status quo is there to stay...nothing much will change the philosophy of the current ruling elite and it therefore behoves one to do the best one can to obviate the situation in which you find yourself. As for perceiving what SA is like....I know very well what it is like and I have never marched on SA house as you have suggested. I do not need your advice in any shape or form because you were probably still a suckling child when I was doing my ACF training (1962)... so lecturing me on perspectives is a crock of you know what. English side of the family (1820)...French side (1662). Difference between you and me is that I did something about it...I saw which way I thought things were going to go and acted accordingly. It turned out that I was right...I have no regrets. BTW I spent a couple of weeks with a chum of mine canvassing for the elections in March when he stood for office...I reakon I got a pretty good idea of what things were like...
NC43
The irony of which I spoke was that you were whining about how the Zims voted, made their beds and now should have to lie without realising what you were saying because the same thing has happened in SA. You perhaps have not voted for the current govt but others have and an outsider could equally say that you have made your beds and should lie in it. I have not thrown any stones as you will see should you care to read what I wrote...not a problem for me if you react the way you do if anyone makes a comment about SA...time to grow up and start removing those chips...Difficult if you don't understand 'irony' of what you were saying....so perhaps I shan't go further.
I have already stated that one has sympathy for your situation; it is not right in the slightest but the status quo is there to stay...nothing much will change the philosophy of the current ruling elite and it therefore behoves one to do the best one can to obviate the situation in which you find yourself. As for perceiving what SA is like....I know very well what it is like and I have never marched on SA house as you have suggested. I do not need your advice in any shape or form because you were probably still a suckling child when I was doing my ACF training (1962)... so lecturing me on perspectives is a crock of you know what. English side of the family (1820)...French side (1662). Difference between you and me is that I did something about it...I saw which way I thought things were going to go and acted accordingly. It turned out that I was right...I have no regrets. BTW I spent a couple of weeks with a chum of mine canvassing for the elections in March when he stood for office...I reakon I got a pretty good idea of what things were like...
NC43
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Must. Resist. Posting...Ugh! Sorry, I can't help myself!
Nope. That wasn't arrogant at all. Definately not. Nooo sir!
We can remove some chips if you can climb down from your lofty perch!
Originally Posted by nutcracker43
...I do not need your advice in any shape or form because you were probably still a suckling child when I was doing my ACF training (1962)... so lecturing me on perspectives is a crock of you know what.
NC43
NC43
We can remove some chips if you can climb down from your lofty perch!
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Shrike, old lad. Thanks for your post...No lofty perches for me thanks...both feet firmly on the ground, no chips on my shoulders and as for your submission:
All I can say here is that that seems the way you appear to do business...I admire ambition in a person...only problem is that you do not appear to have any.
NC43
Originally Posted by Shrike200
We can remove some chips if you can climb down from your lofty perch!
NC43
Last edited by nutcracker43; 21st May 2006 at 09:08.
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NC43........thanks for your family history grandpa.
Your attitude just reinforces my belief that old farts like yourself should be put out to pasture sooner, rather than later.
I find that people who have left SA for "greener pastures" often post here, stating the impending doom, peril we are in and how you made the right choice and got out when you could...............well good for you, so glad it has worked out for you, however there are people like myself who like living here in SA, we are trying to live and work in the "New South Africa" we sometime dont agree with what the government is doing but we understand alot of what they are trying to do, they may not be doing the best job but at least they are trying, with people like myself and my fellow South Africans we are trying to build a better future, not simply bolting at the first sign of trouble taking what you can get and running to a place that can give you more..............
Tell you what Grandpa, you enjoy France, hope retirement is good for you, just please stop occupying my time and energy by posting your condescending arrogant drivel here.
Your attitude just reinforces my belief that old farts like yourself should be put out to pasture sooner, rather than later.
I find that people who have left SA for "greener pastures" often post here, stating the impending doom, peril we are in and how you made the right choice and got out when you could...............well good for you, so glad it has worked out for you, however there are people like myself who like living here in SA, we are trying to live and work in the "New South Africa" we sometime dont agree with what the government is doing but we understand alot of what they are trying to do, they may not be doing the best job but at least they are trying, with people like myself and my fellow South Africans we are trying to build a better future, not simply bolting at the first sign of trouble taking what you can get and running to a place that can give you more..............
Tell you what Grandpa, you enjoy France, hope retirement is good for you, just please stop occupying my time and energy by posting your condescending arrogant drivel here.
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Interesting thread ... but it seems nobody has actually read the fine print on the BEE legislation.
To qualify for BEE status a person must have been a South African citizen and resident in South Africa "prior to March 1994" ... so whilst hiring foreign black or white nationals might have a business reason ... it aint going to help with improving a company's BEE score. In fact ...to try and include a foreign (black) person to increase ones BEE score is actually against the law ..and punishable by fines etc..
I personally dont agree with most (nearly all) of the BEE legislation ... but it sure is written a bit smarter than most people on this thread give it credit for.
To qualify for BEE status a person must have been a South African citizen and resident in South Africa "prior to March 1994" ... so whilst hiring foreign black or white nationals might have a business reason ... it aint going to help with improving a company's BEE score. In fact ...to try and include a foreign (black) person to increase ones BEE score is actually against the law ..and punishable by fines etc..
I personally dont agree with most (nearly all) of the BEE legislation ... but it sure is written a bit smarter than most people on this thread give it credit for.
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Fluffyfan
Thanks for that fluffyfan! Perhaps you feel better now...personal abuse tends to mean that the argument is being lost, however, I would urge you to read what I actually said rather than what you think I said. Some of you fellows are beginning to sound like the Mad hatter at the tea party where one can say anything that they want it to mean rather than what was meant and said..
Oh, and bye the way, I have spent a great part of my working life flying in Africa.
All the best.
NC43
Thanks for that fluffyfan! Perhaps you feel better now...personal abuse tends to mean that the argument is being lost, however, I would urge you to read what I actually said rather than what you think I said. Some of you fellows are beginning to sound like the Mad hatter at the tea party where one can say anything that they want it to mean rather than what was meant and said..
Oh, and bye the way, I have spent a great part of my working life flying in Africa.
All the best.
NC43
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"To qualify for BEE status a person must have been a South African citizen and resident in South Africa "prior to March 1994" ... so whilst hiring foreign black or white nationals might have a business reason ... it aint going to help with improving a company's BEE score. In fact ...to try and include a foreign (black) person to increase ones BEE score is actually against the law ..and punishable by fines etc.."
Parrot.....Just out of curiosity to you really believe that would be enforced??
Parrot.....Just out of curiosity to you really believe that would be enforced??
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Originally Posted by nutcracker43
Fluffyfan
...personal abuse tends to mean that the argument is being lost....
NC43
...personal abuse tends to mean that the argument is being lost....
NC43
Originally Posted by nutcracker43
..I admire ambition in a person...only problem is that you do not appear to have any.
Now onto a relevant note:
Originally Posted by Parrot
To qualify for BEE status a person must have been a South African citizen and resident in South Africa "prior to March 1994" ... so whilst hiring foreign black or white nationals might have a business reason ... it aint going to help with improving a company's BEE score. In fact ...to try and include a foreign (black) person to increase ones BEE score is actually against the law ..and punishable by fines etc..
Thanks for that, I must ask about that. I unfortunately only have the one example that I know of (two actually, the other is in a government department!) - All I know is that it does seem to be happening. I would rather be wrong, it would restore some faith in AA/BEE.
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Hello Shrike,
This is becoming tiresome...read my 61, para 1 10th word and elsewhere.
'
Your comment about my 'decent from my lofty perch where you and others might attempt 'to remove (your imagined) chips' appeared to be something else...an attack of sorts...a challange perhaps? I'm long past the' see you behind the bicycle sheds' variety and it was to this that I referred...in all probability that may have been a difficult task, an ambitious one, and was the ambition to which I referred, coupled, of course with the, perhaps, justified, but unalterable, moan about your situation.
When things cannot be changed it is useless wasting time on them and other avenues should be sought. I had the same problem many years ago which is why I moved...you and others might not want to, or even approve, of this course (I seemed to be attacked for that)...that is your choice...many SA accents on the airwaves in the Gulf, the Far East and Europe...even amongst the national carriers. Different laws apply in the US however...
NC43
This is becoming tiresome...read my 61, para 1 10th word and elsewhere.
'
Your comment about my 'decent from my lofty perch where you and others might attempt 'to remove (your imagined) chips' appeared to be something else...an attack of sorts...a challange perhaps? I'm long past the' see you behind the bicycle sheds' variety and it was to this that I referred...in all probability that may have been a difficult task, an ambitious one, and was the ambition to which I referred, coupled, of course with the, perhaps, justified, but unalterable, moan about your situation.
When things cannot be changed it is useless wasting time on them and other avenues should be sought. I had the same problem many years ago which is why I moved...you and others might not want to, or even approve, of this course (I seemed to be attacked for that)...that is your choice...many SA accents on the airwaves in the Gulf, the Far East and Europe...even amongst the national carriers. Different laws apply in the US however...
NC43
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Hey girls, thanks for the slanging match. I see the thread has deteriorated to nothing but an attack on others. C'mon guys pull it together.
4HP time to bin it. I think we've got the drift by now!!!!
4HP time to bin it. I think we've got the drift by now!!!!
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Unfortunately it seems that whenever this type of topic is discussed crude xenophobia creeps in, sad!
Well done Parrot, that sorts out the foreign black question as far as BEE scores are concerened, although I must admit some of my colleagues simply see all blacks as HDAs. But we do have a serious constitution and an independent legal system, so please expose any funny business you might see.
I am still missing the point about my hypothetical Zimbabwe 737 pilot with lots of experience on type. If we have a shortage of 737 pilots in SAA, isn't it cheaper to hire this guy than train a youngster with much less experience? I know this is what Cathay, Singapore, China, Saudi and many other airlines would do.
If this is the case then why shouldn't we give preference to pilots from the region before taking them from further afield? And I am not ashamed to admit that I would feel proud occasionally having a black captain announcing that we are crossing the Orange River at 33 000 feet.
Well done Parrot, that sorts out the foreign black question as far as BEE scores are concerened, although I must admit some of my colleagues simply see all blacks as HDAs. But we do have a serious constitution and an independent legal system, so please expose any funny business you might see.
I am still missing the point about my hypothetical Zimbabwe 737 pilot with lots of experience on type. If we have a shortage of 737 pilots in SAA, isn't it cheaper to hire this guy than train a youngster with much less experience? I know this is what Cathay, Singapore, China, Saudi and many other airlines would do.
If this is the case then why shouldn't we give preference to pilots from the region before taking them from further afield? And I am not ashamed to admit that I would feel proud occasionally having a black captain announcing that we are crossing the Orange River at 33 000 feet.
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Originally Posted by starcrest
If we have a shortage of 737 pilots in SAA, isn't it cheaper to hire this guy than train a youngster with much less experience? I know this is what Cathay, Singapore, China, Saudi and many other airlines would do.
SAA's apparent crew shortage could be alleviated by these people but they don't fit the requirement due to certain characteristics deemed undesirable by the political masters.
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Starcrest
QUOTE=starcrest I am not ashamed to admit that I would feel proud occasionally having a black captain announcing that we are crossing the Orange River at 33 000 feet.
Beginning to adopt a certain mindset, wouldn't you say?
NC43
QUOTE=starcrest I am not ashamed to admit that I would feel proud occasionally having a black captain announcing that we are crossing the Orange River at 33 000 feet.
Beginning to adopt a certain mindset, wouldn't you say?
NC43
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Hey starcrest,
There are also a lot of suitably "qualified" polititions in Zimbabwe that could easily fill some posts in parliment....should that be allowed/tolerated if we run "short" of polititions.........or are there enough "experienced" ones around these days??
"I am still missing the point about my hypothetical Zimbabwe 737 pilot with lots of experience on type."
Clearly you are missing the point, sadly!! How many more poor people do you want to create??
Quote "starcrest, there have been lots of constructive comments regarding addressing the issue of blacks in the cockpit. Problem is that government wants a quick fix. They are just windowdressing for all I am concerned.
Dont treat the symptoms.......fix the problem causing it. That is the only longterm solution. Unquote
This was one of my previous posts.....care to respond??
How about the following one.???
Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcrest
FWK do you mean isiXhosa, the language? Apartheid is an AngloAfrikaans word, but try this; Bonke abantu bazalwa bekhululekile belingana ngesidima nangokweemfanelo.....
For those who don't speak isiXhosa it means; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
........why do I get the feeling that statement only applies to black "Africans"??
I thought the whole idea behind AA and BEE was to level the playing fields and correct the wrongs of the past for our local black people. Giving jobs to blacks from other countries just to get the demographics right, borders more on absolute discrimination than AA or BEE for that matter.
What about that little boy in one of our townships who realy wants to fly, but can not afford to? Is it fair to discriminate against him also, because he has not been afforded an oppurtunity to get himself qualified?
If my neighbour is an absolute idiot and doesn't feed his children, should I starve mine to feed his? I DO NOT THINK SO.
If your goverment started with a proper programme 12 years ago to address the imbalances in the cockpit, we would have had heaps of properly qualified SOUTH AFRICAN black pilots to choose from.
Dont shy away from your responsibilities make sure your kids are fed properly before helping your neighbour...........THAT my friend, is the right thing to do!! Unquote
Somehow I doubt I will get ANY response from you........if you ignore the problem long enough, it will go away....right? Why dont YOU, for a chance, come up with some constructive suggestions as to how we can address the cockpit issue properly. How we can help OUR people who are living in absolute squalor conditions created by both apartheid and the present governments "silent" actions!!!!!!!
There are also a lot of suitably "qualified" polititions in Zimbabwe that could easily fill some posts in parliment....should that be allowed/tolerated if we run "short" of polititions.........or are there enough "experienced" ones around these days??
"I am still missing the point about my hypothetical Zimbabwe 737 pilot with lots of experience on type."
Clearly you are missing the point, sadly!! How many more poor people do you want to create??
Quote "starcrest, there have been lots of constructive comments regarding addressing the issue of blacks in the cockpit. Problem is that government wants a quick fix. They are just windowdressing for all I am concerned.
Dont treat the symptoms.......fix the problem causing it. That is the only longterm solution. Unquote
This was one of my previous posts.....care to respond??
How about the following one.???
Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcrest
FWK do you mean isiXhosa, the language? Apartheid is an AngloAfrikaans word, but try this; Bonke abantu bazalwa bekhululekile belingana ngesidima nangokweemfanelo.....
For those who don't speak isiXhosa it means; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
........why do I get the feeling that statement only applies to black "Africans"??
I thought the whole idea behind AA and BEE was to level the playing fields and correct the wrongs of the past for our local black people. Giving jobs to blacks from other countries just to get the demographics right, borders more on absolute discrimination than AA or BEE for that matter.
What about that little boy in one of our townships who realy wants to fly, but can not afford to? Is it fair to discriminate against him also, because he has not been afforded an oppurtunity to get himself qualified?
If my neighbour is an absolute idiot and doesn't feed his children, should I starve mine to feed his? I DO NOT THINK SO.
If your goverment started with a proper programme 12 years ago to address the imbalances in the cockpit, we would have had heaps of properly qualified SOUTH AFRICAN black pilots to choose from.
Dont shy away from your responsibilities make sure your kids are fed properly before helping your neighbour...........THAT my friend, is the right thing to do!! Unquote
Somehow I doubt I will get ANY response from you........if you ignore the problem long enough, it will go away....right? Why dont YOU, for a chance, come up with some constructive suggestions as to how we can address the cockpit issue properly. How we can help OUR people who are living in absolute squalor conditions created by both apartheid and the present governments "silent" actions!!!!!!!
Last edited by FlingWingKing; 22nd May 2006 at 13:03.
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And here I am again, harping on as well.....concerning that example I posted on before, regarding the engineering company - I had a chance to speak to my engineer (civil) friend again. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that when they are 'audited' for BEE points/compliance (if thats the right word), absolutely nobody is concerned about where the black people came from, just as long as they're black. The only thing they have become concerned about lately, is how much of a say the black people have in the company, ie. whether the black people have an actual vote or some sort of power in the company, and aren't there for the sole purpose of garnering BEE points.
Perhaps the government turns a blind eye in the engineering field because they themselves are struggling very hard to look representative in their engineering departments (the other example I am aware of) - in one department alone, 60% (or more) of the engineers are not South African (but are black). The government is desperate to set an example, but cannot compete well with the private engineering firms when it comes to salaries - hence the employment of whoever it can get, regardless of nationality, as long as they are black. Therefore, they turn a blind eye to this bending of the rules in the private sector. This set of circumstances is not so applicable to SAA though, who still set the high mark for pilot salaries in South Africa.
It's logical, I can see how that situation would develope. In any case, we can await developments at SAA. You know what they say, 90% of the things you worry about don't happen......
Perhaps the government turns a blind eye in the engineering field because they themselves are struggling very hard to look representative in their engineering departments (the other example I am aware of) - in one department alone, 60% (or more) of the engineers are not South African (but are black). The government is desperate to set an example, but cannot compete well with the private engineering firms when it comes to salaries - hence the employment of whoever it can get, regardless of nationality, as long as they are black. Therefore, they turn a blind eye to this bending of the rules in the private sector. This set of circumstances is not so applicable to SAA though, who still set the high mark for pilot salaries in South Africa.
It's logical, I can see how that situation would develope. In any case, we can await developments at SAA. You know what they say, 90% of the things you worry about don't happen......
