SAA to hire foreigners!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

It is the way of things, Grasshopper....

[fluffyfan]

Porridge and skytort.............thats all very nice in theory, however the reality is far different from the theory of the constitution.

The reality is that they are employing foreign people based on skin colour in all areas of employment in SA, just giving them ID doucuments and calling them South African, and as I said earlier a few have taken this route into SAA, it seems a Black person from anywhere in Africa is more valuable to the government of this land than a white person who's family may have been here for 6 or more generations.

My domestic worker (who is a Zimbabwean) has a house given to her by the ANC, she gets grants from the Govenment, free electricity, water, medical you name it she gets it all, all courtesy of the SA tax payer, there are many South Africans who have non of this and live on the streets..........theory and reality, two totally different things.

[TownshipDog]

This all makes one wonder, what will the black South African pilots in SAA and elsewhere in the aviation community have to say about this? After all, these foreigners are taking their jobs, that is assuming the jobs were earmarked for black pilots exclusively. Would love to hear what they have to say about this.

Oh, by the way Flying Paddy, didn't you do a spell flying in Botswana? Shame on you taking away some Botswanan's job like that...

[SKYTORT]

Fluffyfan,

I agree with what you are saying, and I guess as a relatively young person I still base my arguments on an academic level, rather than contrasting academics with experience - I guess the word "naive" is what I am looking for right?

The way I see it there is a lot of myth that we will never understand, nor get exposed to. For example, you mention about ID documents that get given away, and so another African becomes a South African. Is what you are saying fact or myth? Can you prove that with concrete evidence, or is it another story heard from people that know some people who hands out ID documents??

I am not actually trying to crack a joke here, but I think we must stop making someone's opinion our reality, and base our comments and frustration on the facts. The same goes for the story about the engineering field and emplying black people.

I cannot see how this could be done, and not be illegal, unless we are just to scared to challenge these companies and their unconstitutional act - if we truly live by The Constitution, and more specifically by Section 1 (c) which contain the words "supreme constitution and the rule of law", which in nutshell means that nobody is above the law. That's right, no President, no Company, not SAA - nobody. Well all said this is the minute academic part of it, as it was mentioned earlier, there is the academic side on the one scale, and the practical side on the other side.

It does indeed frustrate me to sit and fly in Africa, when I could have been at home (casting a vote) enjoying South Africa, but I guess our generation lives in its own unique little dipression - our transition into an apartheid free South Africa. Yes, I know some people will say "12 years is more than enough". Obviously it's not!

[FlingWingKing]

Lets hope this basket of Africa (RSA) does not also become a "basket case"......

[starcrest]

Mmmmmmmmmmm.

I like Shrike200's forthrightness, it's easier to understand than all the code.

I have read the SAA feed and it's sensible. The problem I have is that frequently used terms like "long term" and "over a period of time" etc. etc. are code for doing nothing now. Long term and action are strange bedfellows. It will take years and more years before a change is even vaguely visible and yes, I mean black crews. The objective of BEE is clearly about black advancement, it is about more racial balance.

So, for example if a black Zimbabwean with many thousand hours on a Boeing 737 applies to SAA, should we rather select a young white South African who has much less experience? Is that what Cathay Pacific do, other lines? How do we start at least showing that aviation in South Africa is not the exclusive domain of those who were once rich kids or military fighter/bomber pilots? I am struggling........

[Beeech19]

Starcrest

The difference is that if a white South African with thousands of 737 hours applied to Air Zim he would ALSO not get the job coz his not a local.

Eeesh...."I'm strugling...."

[Shrike200]

This is a long post, the summary is at the bottom!

Starcrest, you may call it code, but they're just speaking logically - you cannot make somebody into an airliner captain overnight - logically, since it takes many years of being an F/O before company minimums will be met. There really isn't some hidden agenda here - I think I can safely speak for everybody when I say that 'hanging onto power', and other such nonsensical ideas which have been quoted on these forums in the past, do not feature in any rational persons thinking.

And people aren't 'doing nothing', they're actively having black crewmembers gain experience, in order to one day get command. No matter which way you take it, that DOES take time. If you mean that more black pilots should be in training, well, thats a different story, and the problem there is one of finances. Even SAA cannot afford to train hundreds of pilots to CPL, frozen ATP, plus a few hours experience.

Your example regarding a foreign black pilot is the crux of the matter. White people understand BEE to be a policy that allows black people to gain an economic foothold, and I feel the great majority accept that. We understand that the past system disadvantaged them, and BEE is the means of redressing the imbalance that has resulted - but what we do NOT accept is that the government would include foreigners before it's own citizens IF THE LOCALS MET THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS. Sure, if they were unable to source sufficient local people to do the job, then obviously look abroad (a la Cathay etc), since then they could say to the Dept. of Home Affairs "Please let this person stay, we need them, and cannot find anybody here to do the job", as is the norm in other countries. We (if I can say 'we' as white South Africans) did NOT disadvantage the citizens of other countries in Africa by apartheid. (People my age had nothing to do with apartheid either, but that logic doesn't seem to wash somehow!) They were free to do as they pleased without any repressive laws etc.

But to go into greater detail regarding your example - in normal circumstances, that Zimbabwean pilot with more experience on type should have no reason to be allowed to work in SA and gain SA citizenship. Therefore, the less experience white pilot would get the job, again, provided he or she met the minimums. BUT, the government has specifically crafted the BEE laws to allow the employment of anybody, as long as they are black. THAT'S the part we find unfair - what do I owe anybody from Zim/Tanzania/Ghana etc? Why should they benefit at my expense, when I (and many others more experienced than me) am denied the chance of a job flying for MY national airline?

To quote an example of my own - should SAA start employment drives amongst the African American pilot population? Your logic says they should! Yet, they were obviously not disadvantaged by apartheid...

I will now quote as specifically as I am able to, especially for you SKYTORT:
A certain civil engineering consulting firm (I have been asked not to name them, purely for privacy - they are NOT breaking any laws, but rather seek to comply with the governments BEE policies, as you'll see now), has just advertised posts for design engineers to be employed by them. They only advertised in Zimbabwe, since they were not able to find suitably experienced black engineers in the initial (SA) search as far as I understand. The engineer I have been speaking to is currently processing the CV's. That person is 100% sure that work permits will be happily issued by the government - as they said (I quote) 'Duh! Otherwise we wouldn't have advertised there!' This person also felt that the governments BEE policy clearly allowed for it, although they couldn't quote specifics. Nonetheless, it IS happening, right now, in full compliance with the law, in letter and spirit.

Summary:

- I think that most white people understand the point of BEE, but feel it is specifically to redress the imbalance caused by SA's past repressive laws, and should therefore benefit those people who were actually repressed, ie Black South Africans. Nobody else.
- In normal circumstances, foreign pilots applying to work here would need to prove that nobody here could do the job. This is not the case here, but nonetheless, I have seen evidence that professionals in other fields are being given work permits (at the very least) when qualified (white) SA people already exist to fill the job. I therefore feel that this is possible in the aviation job market, and that it is just as unfair and unethical there as here.

Thats enough for now...

[nutcracker43]

Originally Posted by FlingWingKing

Lets hope this basket of Africa (RSA) does not also become a "basket case"......

Oh, but it will..why should you be any different?

NC43

[FlingWingKing]

I say give the job to the Zimbo's....at least they will appreciate it. South African Blacks dont want to do the job, but want to reap the benefits....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would rather want to fly with a black Zimbo who has passion for what he does, than some rich kid black washout who is "trying" to ride this new wave of apartheid!!

Hey starcrest what is xhosa for apartheid?????????

Problem with YOU starcrest is that you want the whites to dissappear................

Aah f this, take this country and rape it into shape. It is not black enough for africa...............

[fluffyfan]

starcrest please explain to me again why a black Zimbabwean living in his own country which is run by the man he voted in, who has never paid 1 cent of tax money to South Africa ever should get a position in SAA before a white South African who has? It worries me that people like you think that this should be allowed, that you cant see the obvious injustice in this line of thinking, I like to be optimistic about SA's future but when I see statements like you made I have to wonder if we are taking the same route as the rest of Africa, the only problem with this is that there are no more countries left in Africa to run to when this one is stuffed up.

Zimbabwe has made its own bed, now they must lie in it, they have created there own problems due to there hatred of the white man, or settler as they call them, please dont take SA down the same road I think its pretty obvious where that road leads.

[nutcracker43]

Fluffyfan

QUOTE=fluffyfan starcrest please explain to me again why a black Zimbabwean living in his own country which is run by the man he voted in,...that you cant see the obvious injustice in this line of thinking,
Zimbabwe has made its own bed, now they must lie in it, they have created there own problems.

Has South Africa not done the same? Are you fully aware of the irony here...is there no conflict in your mind when you use the words you do. Think about it, lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking..

NC43

[porridge]

Do you want a well-paid airline job or not?

The question now must surely be – “do you want a well-paid airline job or not?” Because if you do you may have to compromise between being in your homeland or elsewhere in the more civilized world.
I was talking to an acquaintance in the airline recruiting game who told me that there are a couple of airlines that he deals with who have aircraft sitting on the ground due to lack of crews. Although there is a fairly plentiful supply of low hour’s pilots there is a real shortage of people with jet or turbine experience who could be fast-tracked to command.
I suggested that SA may have a pool of experienced pilots who may be available, subject to getting JAR Conversions and work permits. He suggested that I put out a feeler on PPRuNe and see what the interest level was as if there are people prepared to move, with suitable experience, then work permits and sponsorship for the conversion may be found for the right candidates. Obviously people with experience on wide-bodied jet would be at the top, but SA ATPL qualified pilots with 2000 hours plus and at least a 1000 hours on turbines may be also an option to consider he reckons.
Still it is really a ‘toe in the water exercise’ at the moment, but is there is some interest revealed on the Africa forum – he may put it to his superiors to put together and package that would satisfy them and their client.
No PM’s at this stage please!

[Beechdrivr]

Well mate, where do i sign up, cos at the current rate things are going i doubt i'll ever get an opportunity back home.

[starcrest]

Originally Posted by FlingWingKing

Hey starcrest what is xhosa for apartheid?????????

FWK do you mean isiXhosa, the language? Apartheid is an AngloAfrikaans word, but try this; Bonke abantu bazalwa bekhululekile belingana ngesidima nangokweemfanelo.....

For those who don't speak isiXhosa it means; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

[cavortingcheetah]

That translates very nicely into English, or did it translate from the English? Never mind!
'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights' is practical nonsense. It may be desirable but it is in effect nothing more than a statement of intent, belief or dogma. It is as fanciful a statement as that which holds that all men are inherently evil. Well, now hold on, that might be tutu much, I suppose!
I subscribe to the suggestion (I think it was, at the least, an idea ?) of a previous poster. The relocation of experienced pilots! It would be an excellently funny situation if the vast majority of such pilots were to depart South Africa for pastures of a more stable colour where job security and opportunities were based on ability and a past track record and not, as would seem to be the case down south, upon a racial basis so oft decried by those who now take the most advantage. What arrant hypocrisy is this?

[FlingWingKing]

Originally Posted by starcrest

FWK do you mean isiXhosa, the language? Apartheid is an AngloAfrikaans word, but try this; Bonke abantu bazalwa bekhululekile belingana ngesidima nangokweemfanelo.....

For those who don't speak isiXhosa it means; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

........why do I get the feeling that statement only applies to black "Africans"??

I thought the whole idea behind AA and BEE was to level the playing fields and correct the wrongs of the past for our local black people. Giving jobs to blacks from other countries just to get the demographics right, borders more on absolute discrimination than AA or BEE for that matter.

What about that little boy in one of our townships who realy wants to fly, but can not afford to? Is it fair to discriminate against him also, because he has not been afforded an oppurtunity to get himself qualified?

If my neighbour is an absolute idiot and doesn't feed his children, should I starve mine? I DO NOT THINK SO.

If your goverment started with a proper programme 12 years ago to address the imbalances in the cockpit, we would have had heaps of properly qualified SOUTH AFRICAN black pilots to choose from.

Dont shy away from your responsibilities make sure your kids are fed properly before helping your neighbour...........THAT my friend, is the right thing to do!!

[Shrike200]

Originally Posted by nutcracker43

Has South Africa not done the same? Are you fully aware of the irony here...is there no conflict in your mind when you use the words you do. Think about it, lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking..
NC43

The actual irony here is that you didn't grasp what everybody is arguing about - we're talking about BEE/AA being used to advantage black people from OTHER African countries - not SA. We understand that problems with OUR past for OUR citizens must be adressed - just not why other African citizens should benefit from our attempts to do so.

So, in conclusion - Think about it lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking...(in other words, take your own advice)

[SKYTORT]

cavortingcheetah,

You're a funny man!

Keep it up...

[118.9]

Funny old aviation thread this, lots about lift, drag and a little thrust. No doubt a (successful) wind-up. But the point about BEE quotas being filled by foreign tanned nationals has been well and truly made. Any reporters out there?? If so you have an excellent topic to publish which no doubt will raise a furore and earn you a bonus..

Starcrest, here's a real quote from a famous person you might have forgotten;

"Blaming things on the past does not make them better" Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela.