saywhat

This is exactly the arguement that the blacks have! They will not, for the next generation at least,have equal experience. It is just not possible to manufacture experience from thin air. Did previously dissadvantaged CEO's of major companies have the experience their white counterparts had? NO! Don't get me wrong, I'm not argueing their point, I'm just putting it foreward. There has to be a solution that both parties can live with, or I'm affraid the whites will lose, as the law is not on their side.
Somehow, we as whites are going to have to eat a little humble pie, and allow a black captain to take up a possition with less experience than we might have. That, I'm affraid is a fact, and if we as whites can not live with it the only alternative is to find another airline to work for.
OOPS, that won't work, as you will join on the seniority list at the bottom, and be more experienced than someone who will get command before you. Does that now make the whole system flawed, I DON'T THINK SO!!!!
As I said in my first post, I don't have the answer, I'm just grappling with how best to deal with it.

Solid Rust Twotter

Would that not compromise safety, Saywhat? I'm sure SAA doesn't need any more scandal to help drive the final nails into the coffin. As it is, PD crewmembers have already been bumped up the seniority list, not something a white pilot can expect.

What to do?

saywhat

It might, and that is exactly where the problem lies. There is no easy solution, and the difficult solution will certainly ruffle feathers. I hope one of our fellow PPruners out there might just have the right answer that both parties would be able to live with. This person would have my vote in the election coming up.
ALFRED E NEWMAN for President! (Does Mad magazine even still exist?)

VS -1500 fpm

Afriviation, do you know how glad the blacks can be that the whites did land on African shores. You would not have had a car nor this Aircraft you are flying around in! (the whites designed it!)

Do you think South Africa would have had such world class airports if we were not here? Have you seen what the rest of Africa looks like? (I guess not, because you did not have to work on contract like the rest of us to get where we are today!) The day the whites left the other african countries, everything came to a standstill!!

If the whites never arrived in SA, you wouldn't even know what the wheel is. And did you know that most of the African tribes in SA, are tribes that was chased out of other african countries for murdering and raping their woman hundreds of years ago. The only ones that should be here are Zulu's, Hotnot and the San in the Northern parts.

The rest of u are all thieves, but dont worry, you cant do anything about it. Its in your blood!

Afriviation

Everyone seems to take this to the level of the Airline and so forth. guys come on wake up this is not about SAA, it's about the entire Aviation Industry from the flying schools right up to the big airlines.
A friend of mine once did a little experiment for me just to show how racist the industry is
One of the Charter Companies in Bonaero Park was looking for pilots. So my friend (indian) took me along to these people. He enquired at the desk if he could be cosidered for a freelance job. The lady told him no you had to have a comm and at least 500 hours. He advised the lady that he had an ALTP, Instructors Rating and more than 4000 hours mostly on Jets. Oh in that case you can leave your CV and i'm sure we'll get back to you. Which he did. And guess what? up to this day he never had a word from them.

So please don't come with this experience mambo jambo. Aviation in SA is still biased towards the pales. I'm sure there are educated non pales who have served in these Companies loyally for years. Are they ever considered for training as a pilot, seeing that there is this severe imbalance, ney?

Most of you also know this fact, The issue of how many hours one needs to have before getting into any particular organisation is based on the supply demand issue. The hour requirement in SA today is not based on safer operations, yes it' will be a by-product. Companies know that there are a lot of Qualified and experience pilots out there and they can therefore pick and choose who they want.

If Aviation can pick up to a point that these qualified people are depleted, then I kid you not SAA would take 250 hour pilots directly and put them through an intense training program.
In the countries I have mentioned in my post You will know that Cadets are taken directly from the flying school to the right hand seat of a passenger airliner in some cases mind you without compromising safety or standards.

Experience is beneficial in Flying and any other job but anyone knows that inherent ability is even more important. There are inexperienced pilots out there who outperform pilots with thousands of hours, which is why the Seniority System is in my view a whole load of kak. People simply being guranteed Senior Positions because of the years they've spent in an organisation?

The unfortunate thing about this is, it will never go away unless there is some reasonable kind of representation. The industry can procrastinate all they like but it will always be a blemish in SA Aviation

saywhat

After reviewing the last comment from VS-1500 for a long while, I somehow don't think that that will do it. I'm looking for a slightly more constructive idea.

VS -1500 fpm

O sorry saywhat, I thought that might help.

Afriviation

Well VS_1500 they screwed it up. they should have developed everyone in the country and not leave the "natives" in the doldrums. We wouldn't be having this discussion today.

VS -1500 fpm

As they say, every man for himself. That is why I'm not even shocked by what the gov. is doing with affirm. action. The whites would have done the same if they were stil in power. Black and white just doesn't mix that well!

Afriviation

but surely something has to be learnt there. you can't keep taking for yourself all the time, at some point it will backfire. that's whats happening here, Thank God I'm still the only one moaning about it. Wait until a guy like Mluleki George is tasked to facilitate transformation in SA Aviation. Believe me all the aspirant pale pilots haven't seen anything. Why does it have to go to that level. Can't the industry correct whats wrong even if it's just being seen to try something?

saywhat

Afriavation, I speak about SAA, as it is the only company that I am aware of that has a cadet pilot program in place. Previously, I was employed in the charter market. I can assure you that the story you told avout the CV, although, I'm sure true, has happened to every white kid looking for a job. Sad reality is that (and I tell you this from experience) there is no easy way to tell a person you don't have a job for them, so you tell them nothing. I can also assure you that in my flying career (23 years), there were no sponsorship programs available outside of the SAAF. Small charter companies not only simply cannot afford to pay the money to sponsor students, but there is no reason for them to, as there are enough pilots out there to feed the monster.
Anyway, ultimately I am a person who likes answers rather than questions. How do you suggest that we can redress the situation? The fact that not enough is happening, although perhaps valid is not an answer, it's a problem.
I suggest that someone should start a flying school, and train young black pilots for free. They will need lots of sponsorship, however, I'm sure that the right person might even raise it. I am convinced that I would be able to scrounge up a few instructors to give some free instruction as their debt to society. Do you think this is possible? Object of the exercise would be to churn out young previously disadvantaged Com pilots.
How about it?

Solid Rust Twotter

Now you and your friend know how I feel every day. I'm ATP rated with more hours and probably more types than he has but battling to get work. Small rainforests have died to provide paper for all my CVs sent.

I'm one of those who slept under the aircraft in the veldt to be available to the owners and operators to build hours. I've hiked 300km on the promise of a half hour ferry for free on a small aircraft and then hiked home again when it's done. That was my weekend shot. I'm one of those who's been abused by companies not paying salaries and leaving crews in the lurch. I've been shot at, taken hostage, bombed and jailed while trying to earn a living but apparently it's not enough. I've fetched the bodies of colleagues in Jiffy bags when they were murdered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. What would you have the white crews do? Roll over and die? Leave the country (Even Mad Bob wants the farmers back.)?


Mluleki George sounds like a bit of a problem child if what you're intimating is true. Discriminating against a racial group is racism any way you look at it. It's been tried before in this country and it hasn't worked. Why do they think it'll work now?

Shrike200

Ooooooh! He didn't automatically get a job that he was well qualified for! Gee, thats never happened to any of us before! Please note the very heavy sarcasm. That happens all the time to people like us who actually have to look for our work - I don't suppose you would have had much experience with that now, would you?

And I'd still like to know where smaller companies are going to magically get black pilots from. SAA is the only one who can do it, because they can take MY tax money and turn it into a cadet scheme - not a luxury that anybody else can afford. You complain that we don't do enough, but every month, the government takes a lot of the money I worked hard for, and chucks it into some or other program to uplift black people! Should I donate some of my blood too?

You think black pilots are being excluded? What planet are you on? - they get PUT ON THE PATH to the best jobs in aviation nowdays! They just need to put in the time, and they'll be in what most would consider the pinnacle jobs of a career in civil aviation in a few years time! IN A FEW YEARS - give it some time, you can't generate 10 years of experience in 5. And I don't care what others think - imagine if an SAA aircraft was to have a major accident, and it came out that a pilot (who cares what colour) was made Captain of that aircraft despite having lower levels of experience than some of the other pilots who would have been up for the job, but couldn't get it because of some biased policy? How would that look in court, or the eyes of the flying public?

"Oh yeah, we knew we had more experienced guys out there but we thought 'bugger that for a lark, we'll use this guy instead, I'm sure he'll do fine!'" What do you think that would make SAA management look like? Good or bad?

So, come on, please - show me where I'm being biased. Please spell out to me how I should change my attitude. Did I say something racist? Come on, I need to hear! Just where is my attitude incorrect? You think I want to 'cling to power'? I never had any! And I had nothing to do with apartheid! Don't try and ram guilt or something down my throat, I feel none.

jon doe

"The first time I ever saw an aeroplane is when I was boarding one to the flying school my sponsor was sending me to."
If that was the first time you saw an aeroplane, then when did you decide to become a pilot or even become interested in aviation, I am sure you must have seen these metal birds before and wonder what they are and how they work before you applied for the job, or was it just an add you answered to or something to do?( Cadet scheme)

Dct no speed

Afri Old Chap!

Please answer this:

Let me start by saying to become a pilot is not easy, you need to have a special "something" the same for becomming a ATC. It is not just about how well you did in school or how clever you are or nothing like that at all!

I have friends that have BSC Master's Degrees but could not make it as pilots or ATC's. That does not make them dumb or anyone a racist!

YOU EITHER HAVE IT OR YOU DONT!!!!!!

If, as you stated the entire industry is at fault, I must have to agree. The SAAF has a max number of hours to achieve the required standard, if you did not make the grade pre 1994 you packed your bags. Lots and lots of pale wanna be pilots had to go ! They did not have what it took! Some made it in the civil sector good on them they tried harder !

HOWEVER since 1994 a different story .....you dont make the grade....then you blame the same instructors that send other non pale pilots solo for beeing racist.You go to the chief of the Airforce and blame people with Thousands of hours flying for you short commings . And woooooosh ! You get put back on course you get trained again and again in the mean time you are standing in the way of possible other humans that actually have what it takes to make it, this is called selfish!

I have to agree with Shrike 200 it has happend to al lot of pales, "thanks for aplying we will call you " but they never say what year. This is called unprofessionalism not racism.

Please only cast the stones if your own house is not build of glass!

Brian_Dunnigan

"I do not dispute that most of you would prefer the minority to rule. That will not happen. the minority is far too greedy, they want things for themselves and themselves only. You just have to look at the responses to this thread. People moan endlessly at the government having sponsored non pale Cadets and these cadets being placed at SAA and so forth. So much has been taken away from these humble people. Something has to be given back.
I have no issues with the government, yes they have their flaws like any other government but they've given to the non pale people more opportunity than the pale gaovernment had done in 40 years of ruling this country in just 12 years.

But BD what happens in schemes like SAA and the Airforce is that they are entrusted to pales who because they are not true to the cause, ensure that these schemes do not produce the significant numbers governement could have hoped for. Imagine for example if you could get prospector to run a cadet scheme. He would make sure that as few non pales as possible make it through or even use the funds to sponsor more pale people.

C'mon people everybody deserves a slice of the cake, be liberal and start sharing."

Again, Afri, you still do not acknowledge the influence you can have and continue to point fingers at others.

The problem is your attitude. You continue to assert that others owe you something. They owe you nothing mate!

Share with whom? As someone has mentioned previously, there is a lack of qualified candidates who bother to apply at some places.

You are so focused on race, mate, that I don't think that you can be safe in a cockpit as any disagreement will be considered as a racial issue by you. I worked once with a guy like you, saying the same rubbish and, guess what?
His ass was fired when he was taken to a tribunal and found out to be a liar!

You defend the ANC's record in government by, surprise, surprise, comparing it to the previous regime.

You just can't move forward, can you?

Apartheid as a government policy died in 1994 but every chance you get, you will hark back to the past, even though an entire generation of school children matriculated last year under the new regime.
It is people like you who hold your brethren back...you still do not commit to helping one of them in aviation but, instead, are content to blame others for failings in an entire industry.

You disgust me.

I only hope to God that the younger black, Asian and white lads will sweep the likes of you out and get SA moving ahead as "Afrithink" is a non-starter that has held much of Africa back by blaming colonisation for failing of political will.

I have no time for your kind, Afri...you are old think...the future does not belong to you as you see only race and to be honest, many will not want to work with you.

I suggested that you meet more non-black pilots. This is because many of them have been turned down at many airlines despite having more experience than you and me combined...it generally is that you are not the one they want and you could do nothing about it. How to resolve this? Move on, try somewhere else and get on with life.

Afri, to be honest, I don't like you, many here don't either, but I'll tell you to your face.It's not because you're black, it's that you, as some one said before, praat (speak) KAK!

All the best to you Afri, you're going to need all the luck you can get the way you think!

Heli_Sticktime

Well said Brian, you summed it up in a nutshell

Hope Afri's not originally from Cuba

Pale_ZA_Male

BEE is a bold attempt to bring equality to previously disadvantaged people. The BEE scorecard for South African business, the issue that is driving this thread, is divided up into: Owership, management, employment equity, procurement, skills development, social spend & enterprise spend. The maximum points for any element is 20 (some score 10) so not one thing on its own gives a company a good BEE rating.

The motivation is as quite simple. People in poverty have absolutely NO chance of getting out of the poverty trap without assistance. The social spend is aimed at social upliftment - addressing the poverty issues directly. The skills training is intended to provide these people with skills that industry need so that they can start climbing the ladder and to get out of poverty. These skills include becoming a pilot. For those that want to go it on their own, the enterprise spend which is a measure of cash or effort (such as business mentoring) is provided to assist budding entrepenuers. For those who want to go the employee route, employment equity dicatates that a business must have black representation throughout their hierarchy. This translates to opportunity for previously disadvantaged people to achieve management positions within a business. Procurement i.e. companies from whom you procure services, is the driving force to make all downstream companies play ball. If they are not BEE compliant, it drags your score down so the incentive exists to buy from BEE compliant companies. Ownership and management at board level are obviously the final prize that the system is coming of age. Despite reports in the media, ownership is not everything. The process is not intended to make billionaires out a few as is popularly reported, despite the ardent efforts of the same few to suggest that ownership is everything.

If you are a white male in South Africa, accept the fact that a fairly good attempt has been made by government to drive transformation through business. Obviously at the expense of white males who have had an unfettered reign on control for 90 years or more. Perhaps if all white males are so brilliant as some of the commentators in this strip are suggesting, they should all start up their own businesses and become employers rather than so desperately wanting to become an employee, something that over 25% of South Africa's population is also fighting to do. Consider the hostage taking incident for the unissued ID book at the department of home affairs, just so he could apply for a job - you really think you got problems? Alternatively, if the government is taking too long about it, they can always do a Bob. Or they can adopt a well meaning US policy and take half the kids in every suburbian school and bus them across town to the local farm school and take half the kids from every farm school and put them in all the suburbian schools. In twelve years we would all be equal. Wouldn't that just bring tears to your eyes. South Africa by all calculations should have been a bloodbath in the early 90's in which case this is all academic. Whites would not be here.

Best then we learn to deal with what is a reasonable attempt by a government that is actually performing better than any white government in history. Corruption exists everywhere and in every country. It is not a black only thing. Neither do they have a monopoly on stupidy, laziness or aids. Get a grip, its a country that is trying to be built, not an ego.

saywhat

Move over Alfred E Newman. Pale ZA Man you got my vote. With any luck, SA has more level headed thinkers like him than hot heads like some other posters.

TMAguide

Its amazing how guilty (in my opinion for no reason!!) white South Africans feel. Come on man. Get over that ****!!

Afri...you just stirring kak china, and for the life of me I can't understand why all these good people are taking ur bait??

Anyway....Sharks are leading....