EC120 Rolls in Durban
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Is a Tail Rotor Control Failure exercise something that should never be done on an EC120. The Flight Manual certainly shows the technique in the emergency section - 3.6 for IGE/OGE and In Cruise Flight. It does not sya that you will get bitten because there are fenestron issues.
So if the CAA are pulling the ratings for three "naughty" people in Durban because they don't know enough about fenestron issues such as the aero D quirks that everyone is being led to believe are the problems then the BIG question still remains:
How do EC 120 drivers get the information from Eurocopter??? Surely they cannot simply call for everyone to have to do a full course. Surely they could sent out a simple communique along the lines of a Service Bulletin like the engineers get or like the Safety Notes Frank Robinson puts in his flight manual.
Surely the CAA should be tapping the guy at Eurocopter SA on the shoulder and saying "you are hereby instructed to issue the information in the interests of public safety". They certainly pulled the ratings " in the interests of public safety.
The other question that is left begging is - Are the CAA going to pull the ratings of all pilots in SA that did an in house non Eurocopter SA facilitated conversion - whether instructors or just pilot.
So if the CAA are pulling the ratings for three "naughty" people in Durban because they don't know enough about fenestron issues such as the aero D quirks that everyone is being led to believe are the problems then the BIG question still remains:
How do EC 120 drivers get the information from Eurocopter??? Surely they cannot simply call for everyone to have to do a full course. Surely they could sent out a simple communique along the lines of a Service Bulletin like the engineers get or like the Safety Notes Frank Robinson puts in his flight manual.
Surely the CAA should be tapping the guy at Eurocopter SA on the shoulder and saying "you are hereby instructed to issue the information in the interests of public safety". They certainly pulled the ratings " in the interests of public safety.
The other question that is left begging is - Are the CAA going to pull the ratings of all pilots in SA that did an in house non Eurocopter SA facilitated conversion - whether instructors or just pilot.
Gatvol
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Keeping the fires lit.....
Anyone can do a factory course if they want. Its not something that requires a blessing.......ONLY MONEY. Thats the reason others go and pass on the info according to Factory Specs..."We Hope" Some in SA have been fortunate to get this compliments of Owners or by virtue of their employment.
When the dust settles on this matter, Im betting you will find that Eurocopter will stand by the procedures in the Manual. Further that there is no big secret to the Fenestron as long AS those procedures are followed.
As to the individuals Ticket being pulled, Im sure its just another mixup at CAA. As I said those who I know at Eurocopter were puzzled about an "Instructors Course" They have never heard of that.
I was also told that it says that the Procedures are only a guideline and I quote from the Eurocopter manual Part 3.1 Emergency Procedures for the EC-120B "Meanwhile, depending on the many external enviornment, such as the type of terrain overflown, the pilot MAY have to adapt to the situation according to his experience."
To me that means if the Auto isnt working you do what you can to make it work including adjusting throttle.
Now if the Aircraft rolled over nose first, it may have to do with tucking. That is another issue.
Anyone can do a factory course if they want. Its not something that requires a blessing.......ONLY MONEY. Thats the reason others go and pass on the info according to Factory Specs..."We Hope" Some in SA have been fortunate to get this compliments of Owners or by virtue of their employment.
When the dust settles on this matter, Im betting you will find that Eurocopter will stand by the procedures in the Manual. Further that there is no big secret to the Fenestron as long AS those procedures are followed.
As to the individuals Ticket being pulled, Im sure its just another mixup at CAA. As I said those who I know at Eurocopter were puzzled about an "Instructors Course" They have never heard of that.
I was also told that it says that the Procedures are only a guideline and I quote from the Eurocopter manual Part 3.1 Emergency Procedures for the EC-120B "Meanwhile, depending on the many external enviornment, such as the type of terrain overflown, the pilot MAY have to adapt to the situation according to his experience."
To me that means if the Auto isnt working you do what you can to make it work including adjusting throttle.
Now if the Aircraft rolled over nose first, it may have to do with tucking. That is another issue.
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Gentlemen; we are digressing somewhat here and I must say that I echo the sentiments of “Sir Cumference” & “canthover”. Let’s cut the bull…t here. CAA; in true style; yet again, have elected to tackle this issue in the most unconventional means – from what I can see transpiring, a little diplomacy and team effort of all the role players would have been a far more beneficial and proactive route to follow and now look at the antagonism that has been created over this issue – I bet the 3 instructors from Durban are mighty angry; would’nt we all be.
Let’s not forget though that Eurocopter are partly and more so largely to blame here as well. Has anyone heard anything form the ‘big white empire’ up in Jhb yet – I guess not. Back to the point; the crux of the matter here is that the two pilots in question did not intentionally take the aircraft and fly it into the ground; hey pilots, this was an accident and we should all learn from this experience; CAA and Eurocopter are making this extremely difficult. It is blatantly clear that they did not have all the information, but take note that there is still no clarification of any kind in this regard which is strange to say the least. We need to find out why and what the correct information is; this is the million $ question I guess.
I think its high time we got the ‘big guns’ in for a more professional outlook and balanced opinion on things – Eurocopter France should be able to shed some light on this discussion. Maybe they will be interested to know that the operators and pilots alike, still do not have any clarification whatsoever from the local Eurocopter marketing department : ouch yet again, this will have some serious ramifications in the future and may cost them dearly in the long run as we consider the coverage that this incident is now gathering!
Nice to see that Tony was in fact “factory trained;” the next important question is to find out if the ‘factory course’ he completed did cover the issues surrounding exercises with regard to tail control failures; if not, ouch again as they may have held back slightly on the severity and depth of the matter and by not forwarding the correct info; as they may have been afraid of the impact it may have on worldwide EC 120 sales, hence the HEMS operator of the Durban aircraft should look at getting Eurocopter to foot part of the bill/blame here! We should all be very interested to find the facts surrounding this one, however I have my doubts just looking at the recent events and non-communication from Eurocopter SA with regard to the recent rollover – I smell a stinky one here!
CAA, shame on you; what about the rest of us instructors nationwide? Why just the 3 in Durban and not the rest! Double standards I say! United we stand, divided we all fall! Hey guess what, I am still in the dark as to the ‘veil of secrecy’ surrounding this exercise – best I leave EC 120’s alone for the near future!
Let’s not forget though that Eurocopter are partly and more so largely to blame here as well. Has anyone heard anything form the ‘big white empire’ up in Jhb yet – I guess not. Back to the point; the crux of the matter here is that the two pilots in question did not intentionally take the aircraft and fly it into the ground; hey pilots, this was an accident and we should all learn from this experience; CAA and Eurocopter are making this extremely difficult. It is blatantly clear that they did not have all the information, but take note that there is still no clarification of any kind in this regard which is strange to say the least. We need to find out why and what the correct information is; this is the million $ question I guess.
I think its high time we got the ‘big guns’ in for a more professional outlook and balanced opinion on things – Eurocopter France should be able to shed some light on this discussion. Maybe they will be interested to know that the operators and pilots alike, still do not have any clarification whatsoever from the local Eurocopter marketing department : ouch yet again, this will have some serious ramifications in the future and may cost them dearly in the long run as we consider the coverage that this incident is now gathering!
Nice to see that Tony was in fact “factory trained;” the next important question is to find out if the ‘factory course’ he completed did cover the issues surrounding exercises with regard to tail control failures; if not, ouch again as they may have held back slightly on the severity and depth of the matter and by not forwarding the correct info; as they may have been afraid of the impact it may have on worldwide EC 120 sales, hence the HEMS operator of the Durban aircraft should look at getting Eurocopter to foot part of the bill/blame here! We should all be very interested to find the facts surrounding this one, however I have my doubts just looking at the recent events and non-communication from Eurocopter SA with regard to the recent rollover – I smell a stinky one here!
CAA, shame on you; what about the rest of us instructors nationwide? Why just the 3 in Durban and not the rest! Double standards I say! United we stand, divided we all fall! Hey guess what, I am still in the dark as to the ‘veil of secrecy’ surrounding this exercise – best I leave EC 120’s alone for the near future!
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It sounds like you guys don't understand this one.....
A Bell Helicopter's tail driver is reactive.......
An EC 120's fenestron is pro-active......
The difference?????
If the Bell's tail driver fails, you react!
If the Fenestron fails, you have to be pro-active, which means that you have to get on top of the first problem before the second problem happens......If you don't, then the third problem will make matters worse, and by the time the 4th problem occurs, you're dead meat. That is of course, if you have not been "pro-active"
Sounds like a reasonable argument to me.
(Info courtesy of FM
A Bell Helicopter's tail driver is reactive.......
An EC 120's fenestron is pro-active......
The difference?????
If the Bell's tail driver fails, you react!
If the Fenestron fails, you have to be pro-active, which means that you have to get on top of the first problem before the second problem happens......If you don't, then the third problem will make matters worse, and by the time the 4th problem occurs, you're dead meat. That is of course, if you have not been "pro-active"
Sounds like a reasonable argument to me.
(Info courtesy of FM
Last edited by bladestrap; 16th Sep 2004 at 09:30.
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This thread has attracted a lot of attention, pilots have talked a lot about this, and I have had a few calls as well.
You will not hear from Eurocopter SA, that I can assure you. South African pilots have on numerous occassions been slated on this forum by the rest of the world, on issues relating to the operation of the Bell 407, and now its going to be on the EC 120.
Eurocopter SA will sell you a helicopter, promise you the world, and once the money is in the bank and you've taken the helicopter, then the carnival is pretty much over. Who trains you, who insures you, and what you do with your helicopter is none of their business.
Bear in mind that a number of owners have gone to the factory to do a "factory course". Not everyone flying the EC 120 though, has had that privelage.
Only one SACAA DE has done the course, and he has converted a number of pilots onto the EC 120, and as I previously posted, was very thorough and efficient.
What I fail to understand now, is why the 3 "old boys" in Durban has had their instructor ratings pulled by the SACAA. I mean, these guys have been flying for yonks, and are surely not idiots, and do have a lot of experience?
My understanding of this whole mess is that the licenses have been pulled because these boys do not understand the diference between a Tail rotor and a fenestron, especially relating to tail rotor or fenestron failures, and until such time that they can prove to the SACAA that they know this difference, they cannot have instructor ratings. Harsh, but apparently true. If these boys can prove to the CAA that they understand the Feneron concept and all that goes along with it, function, failure and remedy, then all is forgiven and they can have their licenses back.
Man, if this is true, then I'm really concerned about the standard of training, the demeanour of the SACAA and aviating in Eurocopter products here in SA in the future.
Come on Eurocopter, talk to the boys, and please ask our friendly CAA DE Mr. Broberg to post his comments.
You will not hear from Eurocopter SA, that I can assure you. South African pilots have on numerous occassions been slated on this forum by the rest of the world, on issues relating to the operation of the Bell 407, and now its going to be on the EC 120.
Eurocopter SA will sell you a helicopter, promise you the world, and once the money is in the bank and you've taken the helicopter, then the carnival is pretty much over. Who trains you, who insures you, and what you do with your helicopter is none of their business.
Bear in mind that a number of owners have gone to the factory to do a "factory course". Not everyone flying the EC 120 though, has had that privelage.
Only one SACAA DE has done the course, and he has converted a number of pilots onto the EC 120, and as I previously posted, was very thorough and efficient.
What I fail to understand now, is why the 3 "old boys" in Durban has had their instructor ratings pulled by the SACAA. I mean, these guys have been flying for yonks, and are surely not idiots, and do have a lot of experience?
My understanding of this whole mess is that the licenses have been pulled because these boys do not understand the diference between a Tail rotor and a fenestron, especially relating to tail rotor or fenestron failures, and until such time that they can prove to the SACAA that they know this difference, they cannot have instructor ratings. Harsh, but apparently true. If these boys can prove to the CAA that they understand the Feneron concept and all that goes along with it, function, failure and remedy, then all is forgiven and they can have their licenses back.
Man, if this is true, then I'm really concerned about the standard of training, the demeanour of the SACAA and aviating in Eurocopter products here in SA in the future.
Come on Eurocopter, talk to the boys, and please ask our friendly CAA DE Mr. Broberg to post his comments.
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Surely if the CAA issued the 'Durban 3' with EC120 instructor ratings IN ERROR, they (the CAA) are at least partly responsible for the consequences (CAA guilty of negligence). If the ratings were issued in accordance with SACAA requirements then why have they been withdrawn? (CAA liable for loss of earnings / restraint of trade?). Is there a lawyer in the house?
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Nice going guys - seems like a united front (Sorry Rotor Revs - I stole this from you) will help.
I have posted a thread under Rotor Heads trying to elicit a response the gurus such as Test Pilots as Eurocopter clearly want to distance themselves from the Durban 3 and we all need to help these boys. Somone must have info. Maybe one of them will get some gen somewhere and then educate the so called numsaan in SA about the finer aspects of fenestron behaviour.
Maybe there is a man in a white coat with dik brille
that has a document on his desk.
I have posted a thread under Rotor Heads trying to elicit a response the gurus such as Test Pilots as Eurocopter clearly want to distance themselves from the Durban 3 and we all need to help these boys. Somone must have info. Maybe one of them will get some gen somewhere and then educate the so called numsaan in SA about the finer aspects of fenestron behaviour.
Maybe there is a man in a white coat with dik brille
that has a document on his desk.
Gatvol
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CantHover.
Saw your posting on Rotorheads and it still may elicit some response . Dont give up so soon. There are three folks who post at times who are very knowledgable, Nick Lappos, Lu Zuckerman and Shawn Coyle. Problem is Nick is a Factory guy, and Shawn works at the Test Pilot school. For them to make comments regarding an accident is pretty touchy considering their positions. Lu may jump in though if someone PMs him.
This thread I think has been answered a few times. In that everyone knows a Manufacturer is not going to enter into the mess with possible pending litigation. Same as CAA. That should be understood.
Rolling an EC anything is not a common occurance due to "Fenestron issues" as far as I have seen on numerous Helicopter Forums. Im betting the best way to make this go away is for the three?? folks involved to have a sit down with someone at CAA who is directly involved with this mess and pose the question "What do we do to make it go away".
Bad enough that their is damage to an aircraft and no doubt finger pointing will result in money for Lawyers. Thankfully no major injuries.
Saw your posting on Rotorheads and it still may elicit some response . Dont give up so soon. There are three folks who post at times who are very knowledgable, Nick Lappos, Lu Zuckerman and Shawn Coyle. Problem is Nick is a Factory guy, and Shawn works at the Test Pilot school. For them to make comments regarding an accident is pretty touchy considering their positions. Lu may jump in though if someone PMs him.
This thread I think has been answered a few times. In that everyone knows a Manufacturer is not going to enter into the mess with possible pending litigation. Same as CAA. That should be understood.
Rolling an EC anything is not a common occurance due to "Fenestron issues" as far as I have seen on numerous Helicopter Forums. Im betting the best way to make this go away is for the three?? folks involved to have a sit down with someone at CAA who is directly involved with this mess and pose the question "What do we do to make it go away".
Bad enough that their is damage to an aircraft and no doubt finger pointing will result in money for Lawyers. Thankfully no major injuries.
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B Sousa, you make mention; quote, “Im betting the best way to make this go away is for the three?? folks involved to have a sit down with someone at CAA who is directly involved with this mess and pose the question "What do we do to make it go away"; unquote! Gents, finally we are getting to the real issue here. People in this country are not interesting in sitting down and discussing issues as they are either to arrogant or just plan uneducated in dealing each other and need to reaffirm their empires that they live it; they would far rather sit in their glass house and throw stones. The knives are out, what for I don’t know and the rest of the industry is suffering.
It might come as no surprise to everyone that this incident is gathering lots and lots of attention locally, everywhere fellow aviators are discussing the matter and making repeated reference to this ongoing debate. The hits on this thread speak volumes. I have heard via the grapevine that the two gents in question have asked CAA for inputs but it seems as though in the interests of ‘public safety’ these two individuals have been very naughty and need to be reprimanded for something they did not even know was illegal or wrong; or is it illegal, who knows! Along with this, queries were also made to the arrogant Eurocopter representative who was sent down by Eurocopter to Durbs to inspect the a/c – nice going Eurocopter, some excellent customer service once again from our good friend KS! So, no statements or comments just the usual kak attitude, Ouch!
Come guy’s, let’s not bluff ourselves here as most of the pilots passing comments on this thread are all very well entrenched within the local aviation business. Along with this I am willing to bet that Messrs GB & CW are both watching this site and its postings from their bomb shelters at ESAL and CAA. I will also put money on the fact the NAC (Bell) friends from across the runway at FALA are watching this debate with baited breath. So, everyone seems of the opinion that GB has overstepped the mark with a very impulsive decision; why is the questions and all this with no final report from the investigators and no official statement/opinion from Eurocopter; it may seem; some comments please!
If there is any substance whatsoever to the matter, then why are Eurocopter not doing any damage control and allowing their good name to go down the “poop shoot” – stinky stinky! A mere media (thread) statement from the youngster would nip things in the bud and make the aviators happy people with Eurocopter and maybe even CAA, although this one will take some time as many out there have now seen exactly just what a pilot can expect from CAA should you make a simple mistake. So, fellow aviators beware, as you will have the wrath of “Burger Lug Fart” bestowed upon you should you make a just the slightest of errors, what a lovely new SA we live in. Many comments going around are that Eurocopter and CAA have lost lots of face on this one and the process is still gathering momentum.
So back to my original point, has anyone heard from Eurocopter yet regarding a formal statement?
It might come as no surprise to everyone that this incident is gathering lots and lots of attention locally, everywhere fellow aviators are discussing the matter and making repeated reference to this ongoing debate. The hits on this thread speak volumes. I have heard via the grapevine that the two gents in question have asked CAA for inputs but it seems as though in the interests of ‘public safety’ these two individuals have been very naughty and need to be reprimanded for something they did not even know was illegal or wrong; or is it illegal, who knows! Along with this, queries were also made to the arrogant Eurocopter representative who was sent down by Eurocopter to Durbs to inspect the a/c – nice going Eurocopter, some excellent customer service once again from our good friend KS! So, no statements or comments just the usual kak attitude, Ouch!
Come guy’s, let’s not bluff ourselves here as most of the pilots passing comments on this thread are all very well entrenched within the local aviation business. Along with this I am willing to bet that Messrs GB & CW are both watching this site and its postings from their bomb shelters at ESAL and CAA. I will also put money on the fact the NAC (Bell) friends from across the runway at FALA are watching this debate with baited breath. So, everyone seems of the opinion that GB has overstepped the mark with a very impulsive decision; why is the questions and all this with no final report from the investigators and no official statement/opinion from Eurocopter; it may seem; some comments please!
If there is any substance whatsoever to the matter, then why are Eurocopter not doing any damage control and allowing their good name to go down the “poop shoot” – stinky stinky! A mere media (thread) statement from the youngster would nip things in the bud and make the aviators happy people with Eurocopter and maybe even CAA, although this one will take some time as many out there have now seen exactly just what a pilot can expect from CAA should you make a simple mistake. So, fellow aviators beware, as you will have the wrath of “Burger Lug Fart” bestowed upon you should you make a just the slightest of errors, what a lovely new SA we live in. Many comments going around are that Eurocopter and CAA have lost lots of face on this one and the process is still gathering momentum.
So back to my original point, has anyone heard from Eurocopter yet regarding a formal statement?
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You have no hope in hell hearing from Eurocopter, and don't expect any postings from the CAA man either. They're all reading these threads with gusto, but are too "slapgat" to comment. The Eurocopter man is so arrogant and so important, with an ego ten times higher than his IQ. "Yeah my man, I've outsold Bell in this country, I'm the King my man, I'm untouchable my man, so why should I degrade myself by posting anything on this site my man? You wanna meet me my man, make an appointment with my office my man.
Eurocopter SA is so far up the CAA man's butt, and will never cross him. They need the man, big time! Just talk to people in the industry, and you'll get the gist of it very quickly.
I think that the people affected in this matter, should take the CAA on in Court. They have not done anything wrong, they're professional, and why should the opinion of one man condemn them? They were appropriately licensed at the time, were'nt they?
I rest my case.
Eurocopter SA is so far up the CAA man's butt, and will never cross him. They need the man, big time! Just talk to people in the industry, and you'll get the gist of it very quickly.
I think that the people affected in this matter, should take the CAA on in Court. They have not done anything wrong, they're professional, and why should the opinion of one man condemn them? They were appropriately licensed at the time, were'nt they?
I rest my case.
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Clipboard, how true your statements are. I have chatted to some of the locals and still no news yet from Eurocopter in the industry – appalling to say the least. As for CAA, the ‘groot baas’ is becoming mighty unpopular as people seem to realise more and more that CAA are just a bunch of useless individuals only willing to exercise any authority when it comes to covering their own fat asses, plane and simple window dressing, that’s what it is. CAA should start considering being more active nationally amongst the operators and pilots and addressing the real issues that need addressing; anyway I suppose that time is spent on doing factory courses paid for by the bigger companies and talking kak about this debate in the pub, boet.
As for me and the rest of the aviators, we know where we stand now! Hey, anyone heard anything yet blah blah blah; sure !
As for me and the rest of the aviators, we know where we stand now! Hey, anyone heard anything yet blah blah blah; sure !
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Though I cant comment on the heli issue since I'm not a rotorhead, yet, I have first hand experience in the past two months of CAA screwing up twice , costing me time, frustration, a lot of phone calls and a lot of money to fix their incompetence.
Seems that in general (as there are a FEW individuals trying very hard to provide good service) there is a distinct lack of professionalism coupled with an old nationalist party 'vervolgings-waansin' prevalent in SACAA, theyd rather scr*w you over than help you, the
's
Seems that in general (as there are a FEW individuals trying very hard to provide good service) there is a distinct lack of professionalism coupled with an old nationalist party 'vervolgings-waansin' prevalent in SACAA, theyd rather scr*w you over than help you, the
's
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Well said SKAZ
Bear in mind that some of the employees of the SACAA are ex Policemen, Speed Cops and MP's from the Defence Force.
Prosecution is all they know. The powers of these people are so draconic, almost as bad as that of the Scorpions.
You cross them, you're f d.
Its worse than the old regime's Section 29 State Security Act. These people do NOTHING for Aviation. They sit there in positions of power, and nail people, because they can. Always threats...."If you don't do what I tell you to do, I'm going to get you arrested & charged"
And the SACAA is supposed to be a service orientated Company. A company where all involved in aviation are their clients. Now you know why the CAA is running at a 40 million rand a year loss.
Bear in mind that some of the employees of the SACAA are ex Policemen, Speed Cops and MP's from the Defence Force.
Prosecution is all they know. The powers of these people are so draconic, almost as bad as that of the Scorpions.
You cross them, you're f
d.Its worse than the old regime's Section 29 State Security Act. These people do NOTHING for Aviation. They sit there in positions of power, and nail people, because they can. Always threats...."If you don't do what I tell you to do, I'm going to get you arrested & charged"
And the SACAA is supposed to be a service orientated Company. A company where all involved in aviation are their clients. Now you know why the CAA is running at a 40 million rand a year loss.
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We all know that there is some stinky stuff going on as these three boys have ratings pulled, but the BEEEEG ? is - what recourse do they have. If they engage the services of a lawyer then they have to foot the bill - then it becomes very messy and the CAA know this. The current legislation is also very confusing as the ANR's are still in force for licensing issues and sec 1.13 refers to the Minister having to authorise the suspension - so is the suspension a legally valid one???? even if part (4) says the standard for the rating was not met - who can say this if the findings of the accident are not public knowledge yet, simply based on the numsaan's findings.
Makes one think that the industry needs to put pressure on the CAA that anytime they up then they must pay for the losses that the user incurs - such as sending a renewal in and waiting six weeks only to have to chase them up and all at the users expense.
Imagine billing the CAA at x per hour because they lost your license.
So if it all comes out in the wash that these boys can simply carry on when some bright spark realises that the action taken was incorrect - who will compensate the guys for losing out AND of course they sit with a tarnished reputation in the industry because they were naughty and got punished.
Maybe this deserves a new thread on "Billing the SACAA".
Another issue is that of culpability - if the CAA approves the rating and the rating was done i.a.w the SACAA requirements and it does come out in the wash that the knowledge transfer from source to end user is lacking as the source (read E SA) actually have the info and did not provide it because the user was not specifically trained by E SA approved persons - then who is culpable the CAA for not ensuring the information does go out to the industry, or E SA or both.......Surely not the poor sucker at the end of the line.
Some food for thought!!!!!
Makes one think that the industry needs to put pressure on the CAA that anytime they
up then they must pay for the losses that the user incurs - such as sending a renewal in and waiting six weeks only to have to chase them up and all at the users expense.Imagine billing the CAA at x per hour because they lost your license.
So if it all comes out in the wash that these boys can simply carry on when some bright spark realises that the action taken was incorrect - who will compensate the guys for losing out AND of course they sit with a tarnished reputation in the industry because they were naughty and got punished.
Maybe this deserves a new thread on "Billing the SACAA".
Another issue is that of culpability - if the CAA approves the rating and the rating was done i.a.w the SACAA requirements and it does come out in the wash that the knowledge transfer from source to end user is lacking as the source (read E SA) actually have the info and did not provide it because the user was not specifically trained by E SA approved persons - then who is culpable the CAA for not ensuring the information does go out to the industry, or E SA or both.......Surely not the poor sucker at the end of the line.
Some food for thought!!!!!
Gatvol
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You've Got says "Some food for thought" heres some more ..
Have the Pilots of South Africa ever considered organizing. Thats to say at least those who fly for hire, commercial and above. Airline types may already have a represntative to speak for them, but I think there are a lot of commercial types both Fixed Wing and Rotorheads who really have no one they can call for assistance. Especially those who work for small companies with just a few Pilots.
Its much easier for Government Agencies to hammer individuals than a group. Some kind of AOPA/South Africa (www.aopa.org)comes to mind. Im sure someone will fill me in on the subject....
Have the Pilots of South Africa ever considered organizing. Thats to say at least those who fly for hire, commercial and above. Airline types may already have a represntative to speak for them, but I think there are a lot of commercial types both Fixed Wing and Rotorheads who really have no one they can call for assistance. Especially those who work for small companies with just a few Pilots.
Its much easier for Government Agencies to hammer individuals than a group. Some kind of AOPA/South Africa (www.aopa.org)comes to mind. Im sure someone will fill me in on the subject....
Last edited by B Sousa; 23rd Sep 2004 at 19:55.
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Bert, how you're doing over there in Vegas?
I have had so many discussions with people around this thread, people who have called me about legal issues regarding the CAA etc, and now I'm going to say my piece.....
Bert, there are a number of organisations that represent pilots here in SA. The Airlines have ALPA, the commercial operators, both Airplane & helicopter, have the Commercial Aviation Association etc. All these organisations, from time to time, have made representations to the SACAA regarding various issues concerning aviation, crew and the SACAA.
Generally, the SACAA will not respond timeously to letters, their staff lie through their front teeth, they make promises which they can't keep and 95% of the SACAA staff AGREE that the organisation is f d. 40% of white staff have left, and very shortly they will lose some more very competent people due to politics, backbiting and huge racial disagreements. Now my dear friends, THIS IS THE ORGANISATION that must regulate aviation in this country????? I ask you???
Minister Radebe should fire the CAA Board and some of the utterly useless idividuals there.
And my friends, should you dare critisize them or take them on, you will be in for a big surprise. You will be ostracised, persecuted and prosecuted. They will find reasons to bite your butt. Its a shame that some of these guys are so unprofessional, and childish. Its also true that some of these people, who are the biggest whiners in the SACAA, have less backbone than a newly born slug.
With regards to this incident in Durban, what I know about it is what I read on this thread. It is clear that the SACAA official in this case, took some bold steps, and at the end of the day, only that official can give the answers to the questions posted here. Its a shame that he has'nt. Its also a shame that Eurocopter has decided not to participate in this discussion, as to date nothing has been forthcoming from them.
I won't be surprised if I get nailed by the SACAA for writing this piece, but I'm not a "gatkruiper", and neither am I afraid to make them aware of their shortcomings, of which they have many at this time. This is supposedly a free & fair democracy, where freedom of speech and opinion is not supposed to be a jailable offence. So guys, if I end up in the bin, will you come and bail me out?
I have had so many discussions with people around this thread, people who have called me about legal issues regarding the CAA etc, and now I'm going to say my piece.....
Bert, there are a number of organisations that represent pilots here in SA. The Airlines have ALPA, the commercial operators, both Airplane & helicopter, have the Commercial Aviation Association etc. All these organisations, from time to time, have made representations to the SACAA regarding various issues concerning aviation, crew and the SACAA.
Generally, the SACAA will not respond timeously to letters, their staff lie through their front teeth, they make promises which they can't keep and 95% of the SACAA staff AGREE that the organisation is f
d. 40% of white staff have left, and very shortly they will lose some more very competent people due to politics, backbiting and huge racial disagreements. Now my dear friends, THIS IS THE ORGANISATION that must regulate aviation in this country????? I ask you??? Minister Radebe should fire the CAA Board and some of the utterly useless idividuals there.
And my friends, should you dare critisize them or take them on, you will be in for a big surprise. You will be ostracised, persecuted and prosecuted. They will find reasons to bite your butt. Its a shame that some of these guys are so unprofessional, and childish. Its also true that some of these people, who are the biggest whiners in the SACAA, have less backbone than a newly born slug.
With regards to this incident in Durban, what I know about it is what I read on this thread. It is clear that the SACAA official in this case, took some bold steps, and at the end of the day, only that official can give the answers to the questions posted here. Its a shame that he has'nt. Its also a shame that Eurocopter has decided not to participate in this discussion, as to date nothing has been forthcoming from them.
I won't be surprised if I get nailed by the SACAA for writing this piece, but I'm not a "gatkruiper", and neither am I afraid to make them aware of their shortcomings, of which they have many at this time. This is supposedly a free & fair democracy, where freedom of speech and opinion is not supposed to be a jailable offence. So guys, if I end up in the bin, will you come and bail me out?
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Take the CAA to Court. Don't take any shaait from them. Don't be afraid. Bring an urgent application in the Supreme Court. A judge will not take sides, and dispense only fair justice. These bastards should be taught a lesson. They are not GOD and neither do they know EVERYTHING! Sue them boys, sue them.
PM me and I'll give you the names of a first class legal team. A team that will eat them for breakfast, a team that will turn them into a picnic lunch.... Hee haa
PM me and I'll give you the names of a first class legal team. A team that will eat them for breakfast, a team that will turn them into a picnic lunch.... Hee haa