Civair
Join Date: Nov 2003
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De nada......
Pity about the supporters not making it because of the greed/megalomania of one person. Would've been great to have them in SA for the series as they do a lot of charity work and are generally a good crowd of okes to have around. Perhaps the SACB and the hospitality providers should look into giving AC a bit of stick as well, lost revenue and such....
Pity about the supporters not making it because of the greed/megalomania of one person. Would've been great to have them in SA for the series as they do a lot of charity work and are generally a good crowd of okes to have around. Perhaps the SACB and the hospitality providers should look into giving AC a bit of stick as well, lost revenue and such....
Join Date: Jun 2000
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SRT
Do you REALLY think that AC cares about the SACB, the hospitality providers or for that matter the Barmy army?
The more one hears about this debacle the more one wonders..... Maybe his billionaire financier that did not come forth with the money was Gary van der Merwe
Now that is a frightening thought...................................!
Do you REALLY think that AC cares about the SACB, the hospitality providers or for that matter the Barmy army?
The more one hears about this debacle the more one wonders..... Maybe his billionaire financier that did not come forth with the money was Gary van der Merwe
Now that is a frightening thought...................................!
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"Do you REALLY think that AC cares about the SACB, the hospitality providers or for that matter the Barmy army?"
The weasel might if he gets slapped with a lawsuit for damages. At the very least it may get him to rethink his get-rich-quick schemes......
The weasel might if he gets slapped with a lawsuit for damages. At the very least it may get him to rethink his get-rich-quick schemes......
Join Date: May 2002
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Another website has cropped up...
http://www.civaircancelsxmas.com/
Hope you all had a good weekend.
Seems like some of the natives are getting restless.
PPete
Hope you all had a good weekend.
Seems like some of the natives are getting restless.
PPete
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Civair just been featured in detail on BBC Watchdog TV programme (14 Dec), Cluver on live feed interview from CPT didnt fair too well basically labelled liar and conman, they claimed he never even had approval from UK nor had even spoken to anyone about it...he of course claimed he had...they questioned his interesting/creative refund procedures and charges
Join Date: Nov 2004
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"If the tickets are being refunded through no fault of the customer, then a full refund should be just that ... a full refund.."
-DeanW
True. Without wishing to sound legalistic i think a distinction may need to be drawn between the claims us civair customers have on the trust fund holding ticket moneys and the claims we have against civair.
The first thing to remember about the trust fund is that that monety belongs to teh creditors, not civair. Our respective claims on the trust fund possibly only extends to the extent that our money was actually paid to the trustees (the auditors). The auditors will only have received the ticket proceeds net of the credit card commissions so that is all there is in the trust fund that can be refunded to us BY THE TRUST FUND net of the cost of sending it back.
I agree that you are right that a full refund generally means a full refund. So in the absence of anything to the contrary in civair's terms and conditions (ie your contract with them) and to the extent that such terms are valid and enforceable (e.g. in english law we have consumer protection legislation including the Unfair Contract Terms Act and th Unfair Terms (Consumer Contracts) Regulations which sometimes invalidate clauses limiting liability etc, whether there is anything in South African Law that might affect the contract I dont know) the balance (ie costs and commissions etc representing the difference between the payment you made to civair in ZAR and the amount of ZAR paid back by the trust fund) should in theory be recoverable from civair out of its own resources. I have heard that the relevant bit of civair's terms and conditions changed during the autumn. If so whether you have a claim may depend on whether you booked before or after they changed their terms.
Note that when i say 'civair's resources' i mean the entity with which you had your contract as opposed to those of any other company with a similar name, andy cluver or anyone else. The problem is that as that entity is a collapsed airline which never looks like flying anywhere and with no financial backing, it probably does not have resources of its own (or if it does it probably wont have for long). So if they refuse to repay it you may not want to spend further time effort and money suing them.
If you paid by credit card you may be able to recover any shortfall from the card company. Section 75 of the (English) Consumer Credit Act 1974 provides as a general rule (i.e. subject to exceptions) that when you use an (english) credit card (nb this does not include debit cards etc) to buy something costing over £100 but less than £30,000 both the card company and the 'supplier' are equally responsible for your purchase. For example, if the goods are not delivered or are faulty, you can claim your money back from either the card company or the supplier.
-DeanW
True. Without wishing to sound legalistic i think a distinction may need to be drawn between the claims us civair customers have on the trust fund holding ticket moneys and the claims we have against civair.
The first thing to remember about the trust fund is that that monety belongs to teh creditors, not civair. Our respective claims on the trust fund possibly only extends to the extent that our money was actually paid to the trustees (the auditors). The auditors will only have received the ticket proceeds net of the credit card commissions so that is all there is in the trust fund that can be refunded to us BY THE TRUST FUND net of the cost of sending it back.
I agree that you are right that a full refund generally means a full refund. So in the absence of anything to the contrary in civair's terms and conditions (ie your contract with them) and to the extent that such terms are valid and enforceable (e.g. in english law we have consumer protection legislation including the Unfair Contract Terms Act and th Unfair Terms (Consumer Contracts) Regulations which sometimes invalidate clauses limiting liability etc, whether there is anything in South African Law that might affect the contract I dont know) the balance (ie costs and commissions etc representing the difference between the payment you made to civair in ZAR and the amount of ZAR paid back by the trust fund) should in theory be recoverable from civair out of its own resources. I have heard that the relevant bit of civair's terms and conditions changed during the autumn. If so whether you have a claim may depend on whether you booked before or after they changed their terms.
Note that when i say 'civair's resources' i mean the entity with which you had your contract as opposed to those of any other company with a similar name, andy cluver or anyone else. The problem is that as that entity is a collapsed airline which never looks like flying anywhere and with no financial backing, it probably does not have resources of its own (or if it does it probably wont have for long). So if they refuse to repay it you may not want to spend further time effort and money suing them.
If you paid by credit card you may be able to recover any shortfall from the card company. Section 75 of the (English) Consumer Credit Act 1974 provides as a general rule (i.e. subject to exceptions) that when you use an (english) credit card (nb this does not include debit cards etc) to buy something costing over £100 but less than £30,000 both the card company and the 'supplier' are equally responsible for your purchase. For example, if the goods are not delivered or are faulty, you can claim your money back from either the card company or the supplier.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
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I am just glad I did not apply to become cabincrew with civair would made redundant before even setting off
.Starting in february with BMED after being with monarch airlines for 3 years.Maybe i will apply to comair in the near future.They seem like a stable company
Seasons greetings(Nou ons gaan die krismis vleis by die baas kry)
.Starting in february with BMED after being with monarch airlines for 3 years.Maybe i will apply to comair in the near future.They seem like a stable companySeasons greetings(Nou ons gaan die krismis vleis by die baas kry)
Join Date: May 2002
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BBC Watchdog
Hi all
Here's what it says about Civair lifted from the BBC Watchdog website.
Civair Airways
14th December 2004
Following in the footsteps of Freddie Laker, the budget airline industry has really taken off in the past few years.
There are the 'no frills' airlines with no in-flight meals, no paper tickets and no reserved seating. Now South African company Civair Airways has gone one step further – no planes.
Their first flight was due to take off on October 30 2004. Colin Chapman was booked on it and spent £1,850 on four tickets.
Civair delayed all flights until 4 December, and Colin's flight was cancelled. He has not received a full refund and he has lost money on accommodation he had booked in South Africa.
When Civair Airways delayed it's flights again, this time until 18 December, Vicki-Ann Hughes also had her flight cancelled. She had paid five hundred and eighty pounds. She was planning to visit her 83-year-old aunt for Christmas and spend New Year in Cape Town with a group of friends. Vanessa Wright was one of them. She paid six hundred and sixty pounds for her flight. Both Vicki-Ann and Vanessa ended up having to pay twice as much for another ticket with another airline.
Caroline Harris and Becky Charles paid nearly one thousand pounds between them for flights to South Africa in February. They only found out last week (6 December) that Civair Airways was having problems and now fear they will miss their friend's wedding. Until they receive a refund they are in limbo and can't afford to buy another ticket.
Four thousand two hundred people bought tickets for flights that never materialised and if you are trying to get a refund, there's a shortage of phone lines. The only way you can contact Civair Airways is via a fax number.
The man behind Civair Airways is Chief Executive Officer Andy Cluver. He does have some smaller planes and also helicopters which he uses to run luxury flights and scenic tours within Africa.
Speaking direct from South Africa, Andy Cluver apologised for the situation. The funding that he claims was approved and signed for didn't come through. He said everyone would receive a refund less the commissions on credit card transactions and banking fees. The money is held in a trust. He still believes he will get the airline off the ground.
Just some thoughts:
Quote:
Their first flight was due to take off on October 30 2004. Colin Chapman was booked on it and spent £1,850 on four tickets.
Not such a good deal really. £462.50 each. Hmmmmm. I know quite a few full service airlines that he could have flown with in October for that price.
Quote:
Four thousand two hundred people bought tickets for flights that never materialised and if you are trying to get a refund, there's a shortage of phone lines.
4200 people at an average of £350 return (conservatively that is some payed £400 plus for a return but I am not sure what the cheapest return flight was) is £1,47mil! Good racket!
Quote:
The money is held in a trust. He still believes he will get the airline off the ground.
AC must be quite upset that he put the money in trust. That's a shedload of caipiriniahs in Rio . I am willing to take 1000/1 bet of at least a grand at the bookies that the airline will never get off the ground now. I don't think any bookie would even give those odds. There is so much PR damage done now and very pissed off punters that I don't think anyone will buy tickets until some flights have actually flown thus bringing up a wee bit of a vicious circle.
PPete
Here's what it says about Civair lifted from the BBC Watchdog website.
Civair Airways
14th December 2004
Following in the footsteps of Freddie Laker, the budget airline industry has really taken off in the past few years.
There are the 'no frills' airlines with no in-flight meals, no paper tickets and no reserved seating. Now South African company Civair Airways has gone one step further – no planes.
Their first flight was due to take off on October 30 2004. Colin Chapman was booked on it and spent £1,850 on four tickets.
Civair delayed all flights until 4 December, and Colin's flight was cancelled. He has not received a full refund and he has lost money on accommodation he had booked in South Africa.
When Civair Airways delayed it's flights again, this time until 18 December, Vicki-Ann Hughes also had her flight cancelled. She had paid five hundred and eighty pounds. She was planning to visit her 83-year-old aunt for Christmas and spend New Year in Cape Town with a group of friends. Vanessa Wright was one of them. She paid six hundred and sixty pounds for her flight. Both Vicki-Ann and Vanessa ended up having to pay twice as much for another ticket with another airline.
Caroline Harris and Becky Charles paid nearly one thousand pounds between them for flights to South Africa in February. They only found out last week (6 December) that Civair Airways was having problems and now fear they will miss their friend's wedding. Until they receive a refund they are in limbo and can't afford to buy another ticket.
Four thousand two hundred people bought tickets for flights that never materialised and if you are trying to get a refund, there's a shortage of phone lines. The only way you can contact Civair Airways is via a fax number.
The man behind Civair Airways is Chief Executive Officer Andy Cluver. He does have some smaller planes and also helicopters which he uses to run luxury flights and scenic tours within Africa.
Speaking direct from South Africa, Andy Cluver apologised for the situation. The funding that he claims was approved and signed for didn't come through. He said everyone would receive a refund less the commissions on credit card transactions and banking fees. The money is held in a trust. He still believes he will get the airline off the ground.
Just some thoughts:
Quote:
Their first flight was due to take off on October 30 2004. Colin Chapman was booked on it and spent £1,850 on four tickets.
Not such a good deal really. £462.50 each. Hmmmmm. I know quite a few full service airlines that he could have flown with in October for that price.
Quote:
Four thousand two hundred people bought tickets for flights that never materialised and if you are trying to get a refund, there's a shortage of phone lines.
4200 people at an average of £350 return (conservatively that is some payed £400 plus for a return but I am not sure what the cheapest return flight was) is £1,47mil! Good racket!
Quote:
The money is held in a trust. He still believes he will get the airline off the ground.
AC must be quite upset that he put the money in trust. That's a shedload of caipiriniahs in Rio . I am willing to take 1000/1 bet of at least a grand at the bookies that the airline will never get off the ground now. I don't think any bookie would even give those odds. There is so much PR damage done now and very pissed off punters that I don't think anyone will buy tickets until some flights have actually flown thus bringing up a wee bit of a vicious circle.
PPete
Join Date: Nov 2004
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the civair website (before it got taken down) suggested that the trust arrangements were a requirement of some south african consumer protection regulations. it seems highly unlikely that they were something cluver did out of the kindness of his heart.
i would be v surprised if civair ever gets off the ground flying between london and cape town. given the publicity (and spate of budget airline failures recently) uk consumers are likely to be a bit more cautious. i doubt many would knowingly buy tickets from any cluver company without the protection of an ATOL number. i doubt cluver would be able to get one without providing a massive bond, if at all.
i would be v surprised if civair ever gets off the ground flying between london and cape town. given the publicity (and spate of budget airline failures recently) uk consumers are likely to be a bit more cautious. i doubt many would knowingly buy tickets from any cluver company without the protection of an ATOL number. i doubt cluver would be able to get one without providing a massive bond, if at all.
