Civair
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Well not really. I've got a half price voucher on Virgin, so it's my friends'! I was just hoping that someone here might be 'in-the-know' and be able to nudge us the right way. What I mean is, I hope they say it's ok! The feeling I got from this thread is that the facts make it seem 50/50, but the gossip makes it more like 10/90. As it stands, it doesn't seem safe to book with them.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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If you book and pay with a credit card, your funds are probably safe if the flight never takes place (maybe talk to your CC company first). However, you might need to have a Plan B, just in case.
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European Aircharter (E7/Bournemouth) will put one of its B747-200s back into service in early December to operate three weekly flights from London Stansted to Cape Town and Durban on behalf of Civair (Cape Town).
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Really? That's excellent! Well, I think we'll hold fire for a couple of weeks until we know for sure that they are actually flying, then we'll book.
Thanks for your time and help, everyone!
Thanks for your time and help, everyone!
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According to Civair, Durban will be an intermediate stop en route to/from Cape Town, so they're planning to use the same aircraft.
As far as I can gather, ICAO/Boeing regs stipulate that a B742 needs a minimum 8000 ft for landing in normal weather conditions i.e. dry, no/small tailwind component, etc.
DIA is 2440m.
Even I can do the maths!
As far as I can gather, ICAO/Boeing regs stipulate that a B742 needs a minimum 8000 ft for landing in normal weather conditions i.e. dry, no/small tailwind component, etc.
DIA is 2440m.
Even I can do the maths!
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PIA747 said:
"European Aircharter (E7/Bournemouth) will put one of its B747-200s back into service in early December to operate three weekly flights from London Stansted to Cape Town and Durban on behalf of Civair (Cape Town)."
I recall a time when Virgin (?) wanted to operate additional flights "on behalf of" a local licensed carrier and was blocked from doing so by the SACAA (probably following howls of protest from SAA!).
There is/was some or other requirement that said an SA-licensed air carrier could not merely wet-lease a foreign-owned/operated aircraft: it needed to provide locally-employed crews, etc.
Or is Civair merely dry-leasing the aircraft from European Aircharter?
Has Civar been trying to recruit flight/cabin crews in SA?
"European Aircharter (E7/Bournemouth) will put one of its B747-200s back into service in early December to operate three weekly flights from London Stansted to Cape Town and Durban on behalf of Civair (Cape Town)."
I recall a time when Virgin (?) wanted to operate additional flights "on behalf of" a local licensed carrier and was blocked from doing so by the SACAA (probably following howls of protest from SAA!).
There is/was some or other requirement that said an SA-licensed air carrier could not merely wet-lease a foreign-owned/operated aircraft: it needed to provide locally-employed crews, etc.
Or is Civair merely dry-leasing the aircraft from European Aircharter?
Has Civar been trying to recruit flight/cabin crews in SA?
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Civair
It's now less than 2 weeks before Civair is supposed to start operations, albeit it having delayed by a couple of months.
Anyone heard anything? The website doesn't have any information.
Anyone heard anything? The website doesn't have any information.
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From The Star, Johannesburg
Letter to UK paper sparks fears of SA airline crash
November 24, 2004
By Jonathan Ancer
A disgruntled passenger's rant to a British newspaper has sparked concern that a South African airline is a fly-by-night operation.
The launch of no-frills airline Civair has been delayed from October 30 to December 5 after red tape prevented it from registering its aircraft.
Now some passengers believe they could be stranded, after reading a letter in the London Sunday Times by Kate Thompson urging people to "beware when booking with a brand-new South African airline".
Rene and Christopher Hobbis bought budget tickets over the Internet six months ago to come to South Africa for a family wedding next month.
After they read the warning, the couple have been scrambling to get another flight to arrive on time.
Rene Hobbis' brother, Lawrence de Villiers, said yesterday that when his sister and brother-in-law read the letter they thought their Cape Town trip was off and their money lost.
De Villiers said he was suspicious because he had been left stranded when a local airline went insolvent two years ago.
The Hobbises' flight is scheduled to take off on December 11 - and Andy Cluver, Civair's CEO, said there was no reason to panic.
"The flight will take off. We've had teething problems but we'll be ready to fly as planned on December 5. About 300 passengers had booked for November and all received refunds or were rebooked on other airlines," he said.
Thompson complained that her refund had taken two weeks to come through.
"Not only was I refused compensation for the fact that flights with alternative airlines had rocketed in price, the refund was £80 (about R900) short, due to a merchant's commission."
Cluver said the commission was a bank charge and was part of an agreement with passengers.
[email protected]
Letter to UK paper sparks fears of SA airline crash
November 24, 2004
By Jonathan Ancer
A disgruntled passenger's rant to a British newspaper has sparked concern that a South African airline is a fly-by-night operation.
The launch of no-frills airline Civair has been delayed from October 30 to December 5 after red tape prevented it from registering its aircraft.
Now some passengers believe they could be stranded, after reading a letter in the London Sunday Times by Kate Thompson urging people to "beware when booking with a brand-new South African airline".
Rene and Christopher Hobbis bought budget tickets over the Internet six months ago to come to South Africa for a family wedding next month.
After they read the warning, the couple have been scrambling to get another flight to arrive on time.
Rene Hobbis' brother, Lawrence de Villiers, said yesterday that when his sister and brother-in-law read the letter they thought their Cape Town trip was off and their money lost.
De Villiers said he was suspicious because he had been left stranded when a local airline went insolvent two years ago.
The Hobbises' flight is scheduled to take off on December 11 - and Andy Cluver, Civair's CEO, said there was no reason to panic.
"The flight will take off. We've had teething problems but we'll be ready to fly as planned on December 5. About 300 passengers had booked for November and all received refunds or were rebooked on other airlines," he said.
Thompson complained that her refund had taken two weeks to come through.
"Not only was I refused compensation for the fact that flights with alternative airlines had rocketed in price, the refund was £80 (about R900) short, due to a merchant's commission."
Cluver said the commission was a bank charge and was part of an agreement with passengers.
[email protected]
Check out these few titbits and ask yourself if you would pay any money to fly with this crowd.'
The "airline" has been promising to fly for tooo long now with start up dates as early as 2003 - have a google and see for yourself. Audrey D' Angelo (Independent Newspapers) - you have been "cut and pasting" press releases for far too long without thinking or researching what is happening? - have you visited CEO of Civair at his headquaters lately and viewed his spanking new red and white 747? " 'We are on track' - Civair CEO Mr Andy Cluver"
The owner of the "airline" drives a new 330 csi Bmw convertible, he has his office in a 3 room wooden shack (rent free) in the "non scheduled area" no pun intended, at Cape Town Int. Uncompleted hangar stands as an eyesore to all who enter, building contractor unpaid!
Civair has a judgement against them by Lanseria Airport for the non paymant of rent, some R60 000. Not a lot if you are leasing (or trying to lease) 747's. Denel are owed some R300,000 in outstanding lease fees for Allouette helicopters.
The King Air 90 owned by Civair has been attached by the bank.
Staff - all 10 of them - are often paid late.
Are there any guarantees that money paid into the "passenger protection trust fund" is done so - the web site has no such security - disgrutled ex staff members hint that money does not go directly to such trust. - no help from you c card company once the money has gone.
If, as quoted by "Sandiron", Cluver claimed 300 people booked in November - do the maths at 3 flights a weeks - 24 possible 747 flights - total 300 seats booked ...mmm no wonder they had "CAA and other regulatory problems'
It is now the 24th Nov and there are no real signs within the aviation community in Cape Town - and for that matter, the world - that these guys will fly come 5 December, as (badly) advertised. BEWARE - Gary, Mark Skratcher and others you might have some company in Pollsmoor for the winter - do keep each other warm ****
Language amended 4HP
The "airline" has been promising to fly for tooo long now with start up dates as early as 2003 - have a google and see for yourself. Audrey D' Angelo (Independent Newspapers) - you have been "cut and pasting" press releases for far too long without thinking or researching what is happening? - have you visited CEO of Civair at his headquaters lately and viewed his spanking new red and white 747? " 'We are on track' - Civair CEO Mr Andy Cluver"
The owner of the "airline" drives a new 330 csi Bmw convertible, he has his office in a 3 room wooden shack (rent free) in the "non scheduled area" no pun intended, at Cape Town Int. Uncompleted hangar stands as an eyesore to all who enter, building contractor unpaid!
Civair has a judgement against them by Lanseria Airport for the non paymant of rent, some R60 000. Not a lot if you are leasing (or trying to lease) 747's. Denel are owed some R300,000 in outstanding lease fees for Allouette helicopters.
The King Air 90 owned by Civair has been attached by the bank.
Staff - all 10 of them - are often paid late.
Are there any guarantees that money paid into the "passenger protection trust fund" is done so - the web site has no such security - disgrutled ex staff members hint that money does not go directly to such trust. - no help from you c card company once the money has gone.
If, as quoted by "Sandiron", Cluver claimed 300 people booked in November - do the maths at 3 flights a weeks - 24 possible 747 flights - total 300 seats booked ...mmm no wonder they had "CAA and other regulatory problems'
It is now the 24th Nov and there are no real signs within the aviation community in Cape Town - and for that matter, the world - that these guys will fly come 5 December, as (badly) advertised. BEWARE - Gary, Mark Skratcher and others you might have some company in Pollsmoor for the winter - do keep each other warm ****
Language amended 4HP
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 24th Nov 2004 at 21:21.
Join Date: May 2002
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taken from saflyermag.co.za:
The identities of the two Boeing 747s for Civair Airways are also known and are as follows:
ZS-PJH B747-267 c/n 22872 ex G-CCMA
ZS-PJI B747-267 c/n 23048 ex G-CCMB
Both originally served with Cathay Pacific and later Virgin before going to European Aviation Air Charter.
The identities of the two Boeing 747s for Civair Airways are also known and are as follows:
ZS-PJH B747-267 c/n 22872 ex G-CCMA
ZS-PJI B747-267 c/n 23048 ex G-CCMB
Both originally served with Cathay Pacific and later Virgin before going to European Aviation Air Charter.
GunsssR4ever
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Sjees oke's why is everyone so negative ?
Give Andy a break and rather wisg him well .. I am sure most of you also had the feeling of a credit card in the red and a cheque that bounces ... not nice.
I wish you well Andy and may God Bless your airline with millions of pax.
No I am finished with Tassie's ...
Give Andy a break and rather wisg him well .. I am sure most of you also had the feeling of a credit card in the red and a cheque that bounces ... not nice.
I wish you well Andy and may God Bless your airline with millions of pax.
No I am finished with Tassie's ...
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Anyone have anything to add? There are a lot of cricket supporters in the UK getting very worried...
Also can someone confirm minimum required runway length for a 742?
Thanks
Also can someone confirm minimum required runway length for a 742?
Thanks
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Submarine not a plane
Firstly i am a forensic investigator not a pilot. But have the misfortune to hold tickets with this shower.
They have today cancelled flights 4/12-18/12 which include mine. They have asked if we want to have a refund we must adhere to a silly list of detiails. Including sending all your banking details on an e-mail. They claim the taxes are not refundable.
Right so maybe some people won't want a refund!!They have the necessary details and could reverse the payments. Have they handed over the taxes, I am contacting the goverments to find out what i already know.
In brief this shower are going under and any flights in the future are oin the slow burner to cancellation.
If any pilot types can explain any technical lies such as licences not got and runways that planes would fall off, let us know. I am compiling a file for credit and gov agencies.
Anyway as nothing is showing at £1k and mainly £1.3k, anyone with a spare plane could mop with us cricket types!!!!!
They have today cancelled flights 4/12-18/12 which include mine. They have asked if we want to have a refund we must adhere to a silly list of detiails. Including sending all your banking details on an e-mail. They claim the taxes are not refundable.
Right so maybe some people won't want a refund!!They have the necessary details and could reverse the payments. Have they handed over the taxes, I am contacting the goverments to find out what i already know.
In brief this shower are going under and any flights in the future are oin the slow burner to cancellation.
If any pilot types can explain any technical lies such as licences not got and runways that planes would fall off, let us know. I am compiling a file for credit and gov agencies.
Anyway as nothing is showing at £1k and mainly £1.3k, anyone with a spare plane could mop with us cricket types!!!!!
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More delays confirmed.....
Courtesy of IOL.co.za
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_...01914673C284667
About 500 passengers booked to fly on low-cost Civair Airways between South Africa and England for Christmas, face high costs trying to get other flights at short notice because Civair is not ready to fly.
On Monday Civair Chief Executive Officer Andy Cluver confirmed that the Boeing 747-200 he had said was originally scheduled to begin flying on October 30, would be unable to fly before December 18.
"I don't want to go into detail, but we have no alternative but to delay our flight until December 18," said Cluver. He was unable to guarantee that this was the final delay.
British holidaymaker Julie Pagan, in Cape Town for a fortnight to visit her parents, on Monday said she had paid Civair R4 000 for a return ticket she had booked online.
Shortly before she was due to fly here, Civair had
emailed her to say the airline was not yet operational.
"They told me to travel with South African Airways (SAA) at no extra cost because they said they had arranged to transfer my flight."
But when she had tried to board an SAA flight at Heathrow with her Civair ticket, SAA had refused to fly her unless she bought a one-way SAA ticket back to England, because the Civair return ticket would not be recognised as valid by immigration authorities here.
"Civair was not in operation, so no airline could bring me to South Africa unless I bought a ticket out of the country. I had no choice."
She paid SAA R5 000 for the ticket back to England on the understanding that if she was allowed into South Africa with her Civair return ticket, SAA would refund the money.
But at Cape Town she was allowed to enter the country only on production of the SAA ticket.
At the Civair office in Cape Town the next day, a man identified only as Andy "advised me that they were not interested in my problem".
"He said I should take the matter up with SAA because as far as he was concerned, Immigration here were happy to accept e-tickets. He said I was the only passenger having difficulties.
"On Tuesday I had a call from Civair advising me that they would not be in operation when I return to England, and I must not cash in the ticket from SAA.
"Civair said they would give me a refund on their return ticket, about R2 000."
She estimated that the "low cost" Civair ticket had effectively cost her about R9 000.
"If I'd bought my ticket from SAA in the first place, it would have cost me maybe R6 500."
Londoner Aiden Smit, another would-be Civair passenger who was planning to spend Christmas with his mother in Cape Town, said he had booked to fly to Cape Town on December 16, returning on January 19.
"About 10 of my friends are booked on the same flight, and we have all now been told it's cancelled.
"Civair has totally ruined our holiday, and has caused pain and heartache to people who cannot see friends and family for Christmas and New Year. We can't afford to buy a ticket now."
Smit said he had been assured of a refund in two days.
Estimating that Civair had close to R2-million from at least 500 return fares at an average cost of R4 000, Smit asked why the airline had been allowed to accept money before it was ready to fly.
"Tickets from London to South Africa are horrendously overpriced for this time of year and airlines must be making a fortune.
"I applaud Civair for its idea, but it is very unfair to be letting so many people down.
"This is a complete flop. The sad thing is that if it had all been done correctly, Civair could have made a fortune in season."
On Monday Cluver said: "Their money is safe. It is held in trust by auditors. We don't even see the money.
"Anyone who wants a refund should submit proof that they have paid for the ticket.
"People should get in touch by emailing us at [email protected]"
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_...01914673C284667
About 500 passengers booked to fly on low-cost Civair Airways between South Africa and England for Christmas, face high costs trying to get other flights at short notice because Civair is not ready to fly.
On Monday Civair Chief Executive Officer Andy Cluver confirmed that the Boeing 747-200 he had said was originally scheduled to begin flying on October 30, would be unable to fly before December 18.
"I don't want to go into detail, but we have no alternative but to delay our flight until December 18," said Cluver. He was unable to guarantee that this was the final delay.
British holidaymaker Julie Pagan, in Cape Town for a fortnight to visit her parents, on Monday said she had paid Civair R4 000 for a return ticket she had booked online.
Shortly before she was due to fly here, Civair had
emailed her to say the airline was not yet operational.
"They told me to travel with South African Airways (SAA) at no extra cost because they said they had arranged to transfer my flight."
But when she had tried to board an SAA flight at Heathrow with her Civair ticket, SAA had refused to fly her unless she bought a one-way SAA ticket back to England, because the Civair return ticket would not be recognised as valid by immigration authorities here.
"Civair was not in operation, so no airline could bring me to South Africa unless I bought a ticket out of the country. I had no choice."
She paid SAA R5 000 for the ticket back to England on the understanding that if she was allowed into South Africa with her Civair return ticket, SAA would refund the money.
But at Cape Town she was allowed to enter the country only on production of the SAA ticket.
At the Civair office in Cape Town the next day, a man identified only as Andy "advised me that they were not interested in my problem".
"He said I should take the matter up with SAA because as far as he was concerned, Immigration here were happy to accept e-tickets. He said I was the only passenger having difficulties.
"On Tuesday I had a call from Civair advising me that they would not be in operation when I return to England, and I must not cash in the ticket from SAA.
"Civair said they would give me a refund on their return ticket, about R2 000."
She estimated that the "low cost" Civair ticket had effectively cost her about R9 000.
"If I'd bought my ticket from SAA in the first place, it would have cost me maybe R6 500."
Londoner Aiden Smit, another would-be Civair passenger who was planning to spend Christmas with his mother in Cape Town, said he had booked to fly to Cape Town on December 16, returning on January 19.
"About 10 of my friends are booked on the same flight, and we have all now been told it's cancelled.
"Civair has totally ruined our holiday, and has caused pain and heartache to people who cannot see friends and family for Christmas and New Year. We can't afford to buy a ticket now."
Smit said he had been assured of a refund in two days.
Estimating that Civair had close to R2-million from at least 500 return fares at an average cost of R4 000, Smit asked why the airline had been allowed to accept money before it was ready to fly.
"Tickets from London to South Africa are horrendously overpriced for this time of year and airlines must be making a fortune.
"I applaud Civair for its idea, but it is very unfair to be letting so many people down.
"This is a complete flop. The sad thing is that if it had all been done correctly, Civair could have made a fortune in season."
On Monday Cluver said: "Their money is safe. It is held in trust by auditors. We don't even see the money.
"Anyone who wants a refund should submit proof that they have paid for the ticket.
"People should get in touch by emailing us at [email protected]"
Last edited by Pistol Pete; 30th Nov 2004 at 13:32.
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MORE LIES
Smit said he had been assured of a refund in two days.
that is from the above
this is from them today
We will require the following information to process the refund:
1. Credit card / bank account details.
2. BANK SORT CODE (for ALL foreign accounts including VISA and Mastercard
accounts)
3. Full name & physical address of the Bank.
4. Physical address of the passenger/sponsor who is holder of the account.
5. For a VISA Card (or any other kind of credit card) we need the Bank name,
which holds the card and a branch name & physical address.
6. A COPY OF THE BANK STATEMENT REFLECTING THE PAYMENT made to Civair
Airways (required for authorisation of the refund).
PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT NO REFUNDS WILL BE ACTIONED UNLESS ALL THE ABOVE
INFORMATION IS FURNISHED.
So who can do that lot in two days when it would have to go by mail, as no one would send it in an e-mail!!!!
Anyone got the real deal on this mysterious SA money system or can they just pay it back, if they wanted to???
that is from the above
this is from them today
We will require the following information to process the refund:
1. Credit card / bank account details.
2. BANK SORT CODE (for ALL foreign accounts including VISA and Mastercard
accounts)
3. Full name & physical address of the Bank.
4. Physical address of the passenger/sponsor who is holder of the account.
5. For a VISA Card (or any other kind of credit card) we need the Bank name,
which holds the card and a branch name & physical address.
6. A COPY OF THE BANK STATEMENT REFLECTING THE PAYMENT made to Civair
Airways (required for authorisation of the refund).
PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT NO REFUNDS WILL BE ACTIONED UNLESS ALL THE ABOVE
INFORMATION IS FURNISHED.
So who can do that lot in two days when it would have to go by mail, as no one would send it in an e-mail!!!!
Anyone got the real deal on this mysterious SA money system or can they just pay it back, if they wanted to???
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Nothing on the Civair website, not even an apology and, by the looks of it, you can still book a ticket for flights prior to 18 December!
I feel really sorry for those people whose Christmas holidays will be ruined by this fiasco. But what were they thinking of, paying for tickets on an airline that didn't even exist yet?
As the old chestnut goes: "If to sounds too good to be true, it usually is".
Look on the bright side, onthecase, we're going to stuff you in the cricket anyway, so best you stay at home and watch it on TV!!! Not really - I do feel for you and all disappointed pax.
Try contacting Nationwide Airlines: maybe VB can launch a rescue of some sort: he has the skill and experience to do it.
I feel really sorry for those people whose Christmas holidays will be ruined by this fiasco. But what were they thinking of, paying for tickets on an airline that didn't even exist yet?
As the old chestnut goes: "If to sounds too good to be true, it usually is".
Look on the bright side, onthecase, we're going to stuff you in the cricket anyway, so best you stay at home and watch it on TV!!! Not really - I do feel for you and all disappointed pax.
Try contacting Nationwide Airlines: maybe VB can launch a rescue of some sort: he has the skill and experience to do it.
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wing and a prayer
Think the end is nigh, even the PR machine has packed up. No one at Civair is answering the phone or e-mail. They aren't even trying to convince us that Dec 19th will happen.
Well it won't Stansted state they have never had any firm commitment from civair. EAC are stating they have spoken to them for months but have never had a confirmation.
It's all down to civair but they ain't speaking/
Well it won't Stansted state they have never had any firm commitment from civair. EAC are stating they have spoken to them for months but have never had a confirmation.
It's all down to civair but they ain't speaking/
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Heard Cluver being interviewed on the radio (567 Cape Talk) this morning. Herewith the jist of the conversation, without comment form myself 
He acknowledge that their had been delays and that they were not taking telephone calls as their telephones cannot cope. Therefore, people could contact them via email.
He says that the delay is a result of his funding not coming through, but he is working on it and that they will commence services towards the end of December.
He also says that people can claim refunds via email. When asked if it will be a full refund, he confirmed that people were entitled to a 'full refund'.
He acknowledge that their had been delays and that they were not taking telephone calls as their telephones cannot cope. Therefore, people could contact them via email.
He says that the delay is a result of his funding not coming through, but he is working on it and that they will commence services towards the end of December.
He also says that people can claim refunds via email. When asked if it will be a full refund, he confirmed that people were entitled to a 'full refund'.