friends, salaries and aviation
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GT,
For my part I have always paid for all my training and type ratings. I have always presented myself to employers fully licensed,rated and ready to go. The issue here is whether one is employed with a training bond or a contract pilot earning contract money. I personally fall into the latter category.
I feel that it is still grossly unfair that a South African has to go to all the lengths of getting necessary hours, passing numerous exams, paying for type ratings etc. and then have to compete with Igor who is validating a Transylvanian moped license supported by an Alice in Wonderland log book.
V1
For my part I have always paid for all my training and type ratings. I have always presented myself to employers fully licensed,rated and ready to go. The issue here is whether one is employed with a training bond or a contract pilot earning contract money. I personally fall into the latter category.
I feel that it is still grossly unfair that a South African has to go to all the lengths of getting necessary hours, passing numerous exams, paying for type ratings etc. and then have to compete with Igor who is validating a Transylvanian moped license supported by an Alice in Wonderland log book.
V1
ZbV
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More on Validations
Yip. I flew pt135 in US for a few years with a "Fly by night" (Literally) operation. As I had done my training in US ad had FAA CPL I was set to go. Immigration was a totally different issue and
I will not tackle that.
To get a validation in RSA one need to complete some written exams, namely air law, have a class one medical and complete a flight test in the type of aircraft to be operated. Apparently there are 2 types of validations. One allows to operate in RSA and the other is only valid outside the borders.
A validation in Europe will allow you to fly commercially in and out as well as in Europe on the type and capacity validation has been issued. Not easy to get one, but can be done. UK seems to have the least friendly CAA in Europe. Biggest problem still is how rules are interpreted by different CAA's around Europe. Finland will issue a validation for a year only, and it cannot be renewed. Ireland willl validate a license for 6 moths at the time, renewals are possible. Iceland will validate for a year with renewal possibilities.
Biggest difference to RSA seems to be that individuals cannot apply for a validation of a professional license, rather it has to be done by a company. So one needs to have a job to get a validation. Guess it's catch 22.
JJ
I will not tackle that.
To get a validation in RSA one need to complete some written exams, namely air law, have a class one medical and complete a flight test in the type of aircraft to be operated. Apparently there are 2 types of validations. One allows to operate in RSA and the other is only valid outside the borders.
A validation in Europe will allow you to fly commercially in and out as well as in Europe on the type and capacity validation has been issued. Not easy to get one, but can be done. UK seems to have the least friendly CAA in Europe. Biggest problem still is how rules are interpreted by different CAA's around Europe. Finland will issue a validation for a year only, and it cannot be renewed. Ireland willl validate a license for 6 moths at the time, renewals are possible. Iceland will validate for a year with renewal possibilities.
Biggest difference to RSA seems to be that individuals cannot apply for a validation of a professional license, rather it has to be done by a company. So one needs to have a job to get a validation. Guess it's catch 22.
JJ
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JJ,
Hate to argue, but I've just been through the whole thing with UK CAA. They will validate everything I have but definately not for hire or reward.
I can get a JAA license from them when I have written 14 subjects, done a GBP500 medical at Gatwick and completed an IF flight test. And all this only on the basis of them having scrutinised my logbooks.
I plan to actually do all this later in the year.
Sorry to hear of your experiences in the US, suggest you check stuff out a bit better next time!
V1
Hate to argue, but I've just been through the whole thing with UK CAA. They will validate everything I have but definately not for hire or reward.
I can get a JAA license from them when I have written 14 subjects, done a GBP500 medical at Gatwick and completed an IF flight test. And all this only on the basis of them having scrutinised my logbooks.
I plan to actually do all this later in the year.
Sorry to hear of your experiences in the US, suggest you check stuff out a bit better next time!
V1
Gatvol
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I think I can jump in on this one. Having recently gotten my RSA validation on my FAA Com. It was a fun experience. In fact it was so much fun I took the Air Law exam twice. I also learned that fun in the RSA costs R216 every time you take it. Then you get to give them R 433 for a validation.......Unlike the FAA where its free with them and the only time you pay is with a Flight School.
Also one does not need a job before getting a validation as I think was mentioned on the last post. One only needs Money for the CAA. They have a special counter just to accept all major Credit Cards, Cash and who knows maybe even Diamonds.
Anyway I thought Air Law was Air Law, not true, things you do here in Afreeka are not the same as the states and one could easily be killed using two sets of rules. Based on that I humbly accept that I learned something which makes the investment worth it.
I also never involve myself with a company that would take work away from someone depending on an income. Being somewhat retired it works well for me both in the RSA and the States. Im more than happy to do part time or on call work. This gives me the ability to stay out of the petty bickering of those who are after each others jobs.
As for flying in the UK, never have, dont want too, and they probably dont need my attitude anyway..
Back to part 135 in La$ Vega$. www.heliusa.com Come and visit.........By the way you will need money there also, not for the FAA but for those Casinos.....
Next Post Please................
Also one does not need a job before getting a validation as I think was mentioned on the last post. One only needs Money for the CAA. They have a special counter just to accept all major Credit Cards, Cash and who knows maybe even Diamonds.
Anyway I thought Air Law was Air Law, not true, things you do here in Afreeka are not the same as the states and one could easily be killed using two sets of rules. Based on that I humbly accept that I learned something which makes the investment worth it.
I also never involve myself with a company that would take work away from someone depending on an income. Being somewhat retired it works well for me both in the RSA and the States. Im more than happy to do part time or on call work. This gives me the ability to stay out of the petty bickering of those who are after each others jobs.
As for flying in the UK, never have, dont want too, and they probably dont need my attitude anyway..
Back to part 135 in La$ Vega$. www.heliusa.com Come and visit.........By the way you will need money there also, not for the FAA but for those Casinos.....
Next Post Please................
ZbV
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Again on validations
V1 Rotate
If you have 1500h as PIC in a transport category jet you can be issued a validation as PIC and if 1500h as SIC a validation as SIC. With this validation one CAN fly either as Captain or F/O in commercial air transport.
What you where describing was not a validation , but a conversion to a JAA license and those requirements you have to meet to obtain one. Once you have done your 14 odd exams and a flight check you will be issued a JAA ATPL or CPL not a validation.
It is not easy in Europe. But can be done. Apparently JAA and FAA have started to negotiate again about mutual recognition... How long will it take is another question.
Why do we need to have al these different licenses. Wouldn't it ber sooooo much easier to have one common worldwide license that would be good everywhere?
Cheers for now
JJ
If you have 1500h as PIC in a transport category jet you can be issued a validation as PIC and if 1500h as SIC a validation as SIC. With this validation one CAN fly either as Captain or F/O in commercial air transport.
What you where describing was not a validation , but a conversion to a JAA license and those requirements you have to meet to obtain one. Once you have done your 14 odd exams and a flight check you will be issued a JAA ATPL or CPL not a validation.
It is not easy in Europe. But can be done. Apparently JAA and FAA have started to negotiate again about mutual recognition... How long will it take is another question.
Why do we need to have al these different licenses. Wouldn't it ber sooooo much easier to have one common worldwide license that would be good everywhere?
Cheers for now
JJ
Gatvol
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JJ
It would be very nice to have a License recognized around the world. As I mentioned above, rules are different and until all these FAA, CAA's get together with the same book its best to do it the way it is.
Besides if it were easy look at all the money that would be saved on training, licensing etc. We cant have that.
It would be very nice to have a License recognized around the world. As I mentioned above, rules are different and until all these FAA, CAA's get together with the same book its best to do it the way it is.
Besides if it were easy look at all the money that would be saved on training, licensing etc. We cant have that.
ZbV
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Worldwide license
Hello Bert.
Savings, yes, there would be and you are right too. We can't have that. Training centers and flight schools would lose too much money in the game. UK schools are allready screaming bloody murder about losing students to "Cheap" schools outside the country. Am I surprised about UK schools losing students and not being able to compete with foreign schools. No! When ATPL theoretical course costs over 4000 UK pounds and you can do the same course in an other EU country for less than half, no wonder.
Back to subject
There are several issues that face contract pilot
Converting licenses is just one problem with all theother that face contract pilots. Salaries and the lack of it being the one of the biggest.
I argue that if a company treats it's employees fairly one will be more willing to work for less money and be more motivated to do their best. Nothing pisses me off more than not getting being paid on time and when asking for the money getting all the lied right to your face.
Many companies nowadays resort to lies, threats and deception as their modus operandi. They fail to understand that these practices actually reduce profitability and thus affect the company in long term.
From a pilots point of view this generates a problem as there is allways someone who is willing to step in and take your job.
All for now
JJ
Savings, yes, there would be and you are right too. We can't have that. Training centers and flight schools would lose too much money in the game. UK schools are allready screaming bloody murder about losing students to "Cheap" schools outside the country. Am I surprised about UK schools losing students and not being able to compete with foreign schools. No! When ATPL theoretical course costs over 4000 UK pounds and you can do the same course in an other EU country for less than half, no wonder.
Back to subject
There are several issues that face contract pilot
Converting licenses is just one problem with all theother that face contract pilots. Salaries and the lack of it being the one of the biggest.
I argue that if a company treats it's employees fairly one will be more willing to work for less money and be more motivated to do their best. Nothing pisses me off more than not getting being paid on time and when asking for the money getting all the lied right to your face.
Many companies nowadays resort to lies, threats and deception as their modus operandi. They fail to understand that these practices actually reduce profitability and thus affect the company in long term.
From a pilots point of view this generates a problem as there is allways someone who is willing to step in and take your job.
All for now
JJ
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Tch! Tch!
Kunjani African Prooners, and other Prooners lurking around here.
Reading this thread and the one about the rudeness on 126.9, this thread should have been called "Salaries and aviation" and not "Friends, salaries and aviation".
Just my little piddle.
Shala Gashle.
Reading this thread and the one about the rudeness on 126.9, this thread should have been called "Salaries and aviation" and not "Friends, salaries and aviation".
Just my little piddle.
Shala Gashle.
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Bucks
Hey Jaco
It would be nice to arrange a nice Toy Toy and halt all ZS flights for a month or so in West or East Africa, and see how quick the operators respond to this new trick!!
We all work, through our respective aviation companies, for multi Billion Dollar institutions, governments, etc. Do they really know that we get paid such measly Salaries, you yourself should know that the main complaints from any pilot on contract is firstly salaries and secondly, living conditions, which can range from a ships container in the desert (I've heard) To Lush luxury houses with all the trinkets not even our homes in Sa posess, however the salaries, the bucks that we take home to our wifes and children or our extended families is what makes the difference. Our children grow up without us just so we can feed them and put clothes on them!!
If we could reach the big boys that pay for all of this and negotiate with them to bring our aviation companies up to par with the "global" salary scale then we might get one step up instead of two steps back. I also want to buy myself a new beemer.
If we could convince these "Big Boys", that in the end it is not our Aviation companies that do the work, it is us, the Pilots that do the work, remember they are not making money out of us, they are using us to give them a service, and if our morale is low, then our service tends to take a downward plunge, and in some cases we could be so depressed about the money issue that it actually becomes dangerous for us to fly these aircraft, thus endangering the "big boys" and the people we are flying around for them. I'm sure that a good investigation from them will prove that we are grossly underpaid.
I believe that a good salary in Africa should be $5000 to $6000 flying anything up to 5700kg. Dammit we are Professionals and got to where we are through great pain and it's time we get rewarded for all our suffering.
But Face it it is still the greatest job on this here planet
"When you are in your office, the worst possible thing that can happen is you can drop your pencil, way up there a whole lot worse things can happen, however the rewards are much greater."
-Richard Bach-
Lets get together and do something as people who love what we are doing, without being screwed for it!!
-Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway
It would be nice to arrange a nice Toy Toy and halt all ZS flights for a month or so in West or East Africa, and see how quick the operators respond to this new trick!!
We all work, through our respective aviation companies, for multi Billion Dollar institutions, governments, etc. Do they really know that we get paid such measly Salaries, you yourself should know that the main complaints from any pilot on contract is firstly salaries and secondly, living conditions, which can range from a ships container in the desert (I've heard) To Lush luxury houses with all the trinkets not even our homes in Sa posess, however the salaries, the bucks that we take home to our wifes and children or our extended families is what makes the difference. Our children grow up without us just so we can feed them and put clothes on them!!
If we could reach the big boys that pay for all of this and negotiate with them to bring our aviation companies up to par with the "global" salary scale then we might get one step up instead of two steps back. I also want to buy myself a new beemer.
If we could convince these "Big Boys", that in the end it is not our Aviation companies that do the work, it is us, the Pilots that do the work, remember they are not making money out of us, they are using us to give them a service, and if our morale is low, then our service tends to take a downward plunge, and in some cases we could be so depressed about the money issue that it actually becomes dangerous for us to fly these aircraft, thus endangering the "big boys" and the people we are flying around for them. I'm sure that a good investigation from them will prove that we are grossly underpaid.
I believe that a good salary in Africa should be $5000 to $6000 flying anything up to 5700kg. Dammit we are Professionals and got to where we are through great pain and it's time we get rewarded for all our suffering.
But Face it it is still the greatest job on this here planet
"When you are in your office, the worst possible thing that can happen is you can drop your pencil, way up there a whole lot worse things can happen, however the rewards are much greater."
-Richard Bach-
Lets get together and do something as people who love what we are doing, without being screwed for it!!
-Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway
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Well said Flutterbug!
I believe that the air transport resession has bottomed out. An awful lot of carriers are starting to hire now.
Take Qatar, they have just purchased 32 new Airbuses they are one of the increasing number of employers recruiting right now.
US flights are getting fuller by the day!
What we must all do is stick to our guns and demand good salaries and conditions. Real dollars and no containers!
And keep everything crossed that we don't get another terror attack.
JJ Regarding the validations:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1118.pdf
This is the most acurate and up to date info that I can find in the CAA web page regarding validations of foreign licenses.
Anyone who can actually get through this to the point where they will actually be able to fly "G-REG" for hire with a validated SA license today is a better man than me!
Carefuly read the guidance page at the bottom! I quote:
" A certificate of validation will not be issued where a person holding an ICAO contracting state licence is seeking regular employment as flight crew of UK registered aircraft"
V1
I believe that the air transport resession has bottomed out. An awful lot of carriers are starting to hire now.
Take Qatar, they have just purchased 32 new Airbuses they are one of the increasing number of employers recruiting right now.
US flights are getting fuller by the day!
What we must all do is stick to our guns and demand good salaries and conditions. Real dollars and no containers!
And keep everything crossed that we don't get another terror attack.
JJ Regarding the validations:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1118.pdf
This is the most acurate and up to date info that I can find in the CAA web page regarding validations of foreign licenses.
Anyone who can actually get through this to the point where they will actually be able to fly "G-REG" for hire with a validated SA license today is a better man than me!
Carefuly read the guidance page at the bottom! I quote:
" A certificate of validation will not be issued where a person holding an ICAO contracting state licence is seeking regular employment as flight crew of UK registered aircraft"
V1
Last edited by V1 Rotate; 5th Sep 2003 at 12:37.
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Aviation is the strangest industry! It is so small, mention a name of an individual in a regional context, and often in a global context as well, and you are likely to either know the person or something about him/her. Friends? Not necessarily as is discussed earlier in this thread. The back stabbing that goes on is quite horrendous. Also, I am sure that each and every one of us has attended a post accident discussion where the victim is slated for numerous valid and mostly unfounded 'crimes' that could have only resulted in the accident itself. "Got what he/she deserved!" "Saw it coming!" etc. With friends like these... ?
On the issue of salaries, the industry (Especially contracting) has become so cutthroat that there is very little room for increases as far as salaries are concerned. In order to be competitive, bids are cut, aircraft still have to be paid for, banks do not take late payments kindly, so as bids are cut, the only areas of savings are in salaries or maintenance. Both with a direct negative effect on safety.
I know of companies who have been approached by new pilots who have offered to work for nothing. Also, young guys whose fathers have offered to pay the salary of their offspring in order to give him a start. It is correct to turn these offers away as they damage the whole structure for the rest of us. I remember at a stage when a whole lot of ex-Zimbabweans came down South and flooded the industry, to the detriment of us all. In particular the helicopter salaries were hardest hit and the damage took years to repair. They were desperate times for those guys.
The reality of the situation is that you are not going to stop it, not the offers to work for nothing nor the raping of the individuals who place their skills and butts on the line to earn the best salary they can by unscrupulous operators who will use any excuse in the book. Times are hard and it is during this kind of situation that the worst comes out of an individual!
On the issue of salaries, the industry (Especially contracting) has become so cutthroat that there is very little room for increases as far as salaries are concerned. In order to be competitive, bids are cut, aircraft still have to be paid for, banks do not take late payments kindly, so as bids are cut, the only areas of savings are in salaries or maintenance. Both with a direct negative effect on safety.
I know of companies who have been approached by new pilots who have offered to work for nothing. Also, young guys whose fathers have offered to pay the salary of their offspring in order to give him a start. It is correct to turn these offers away as they damage the whole structure for the rest of us. I remember at a stage when a whole lot of ex-Zimbabweans came down South and flooded the industry, to the detriment of us all. In particular the helicopter salaries were hardest hit and the damage took years to repair. They were desperate times for those guys.
The reality of the situation is that you are not going to stop it, not the offers to work for nothing nor the raping of the individuals who place their skills and butts on the line to earn the best salary they can by unscrupulous operators who will use any excuse in the book. Times are hard and it is during this kind of situation that the worst comes out of an individual!
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Guess enough has been said about this issue. All that I can add is that I believe aviation services have become grossly undervalued in the African relief market. It has been openly admitted (by an aid agency officer) that fairly little consideration is given to the service rendered and aircraft provided by aviation companies. THEY TAKE THE LOWEST BID. End of story.
Now, the real problems start with certain international aviation companies receiving government grants on the basis of acquiring contracts. They manage to quote ridiculous rates and no other straight-quoting companies can compete. So I feel for the operators involved in this game as well.
I have had to take a salary knock on more than one occasion. Boss called and said they need to get in with a lower price to keep the contract. What could I say? I knew he was being genuine and not just trying to break a greater margin for himself. Is it better to have work, earning less, or say no to the job on principle and the company not get the contract?
Now, the real problems start with certain international aviation companies receiving government grants on the basis of acquiring contracts. They manage to quote ridiculous rates and no other straight-quoting companies can compete. So I feel for the operators involved in this game as well.
I have had to take a salary knock on more than one occasion. Boss called and said they need to get in with a lower price to keep the contract. What could I say? I knew he was being genuine and not just trying to break a greater margin for himself. Is it better to have work, earning less, or say no to the job on principle and the company not get the contract?
ZbV
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Friends
Sir Cumference
There are friends and "Friends". Those friends that I have made in this industry are few and spread all over the world. However these guys I can trust to help me when in need and vice versa. A good friend is one that you might not see for several years and when you do meet, it's like it was a few hours since you last met.
On the other hand these so called "Friends" are the type of person who will sit with you, talk, drink, laugh and then turn around and screw you.
There are guys like that all over the world. Small flight departments seem to suffer from this disease more than big ones. Or perhaps in bigger companies one is reduced to a number and enjoy relative anonymity.
A company I was flying for had a DO that was especially ruthless. He would try his best to catch you with anything he could. He had snitches within the pilots and would know in a matter of hours what was said and by who as well as when and where did it happen and who where present. Didn't take us long to learn to keep our mouths shut around certain pilots.
All for now
JJ
There are friends and "Friends". Those friends that I have made in this industry are few and spread all over the world. However these guys I can trust to help me when in need and vice versa. A good friend is one that you might not see for several years and when you do meet, it's like it was a few hours since you last met.
On the other hand these so called "Friends" are the type of person who will sit with you, talk, drink, laugh and then turn around and screw you.
There are guys like that all over the world. Small flight departments seem to suffer from this disease more than big ones. Or perhaps in bigger companies one is reduced to a number and enjoy relative anonymity.
A company I was flying for had a DO that was especially ruthless. He would try his best to catch you with anything he could. He had snitches within the pilots and would know in a matter of hours what was said and by who as well as when and where did it happen and who where present. Didn't take us long to learn to keep our mouths shut around certain pilots.
All for now
JJ
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JJflyer boy oh boy are you ever right. I cannot agree with you more. I have a few friends that I made at airschool and we will most probably stay friends or a very long time.....cause we are not working for the same company, or even in the same country for that matter.
I have learnt a number of very hard and sobering lessons in the past few years. One of which was this week only.....a 'friend' that I would have trusted with my life, gave me the hardest, coldest lesson in betrayel that I have ever had. And in this industry, in a fairly 'small' company, I have had 'friends' turn out to be major 'maatjie- naaiers' before.
Getting ahead and looking out for 'number 1', is a survival technique, but unfortunately some people loose all integrity and apparently any compunction and self-respect in the process.
To my friends, I shall be a friend for life. After years apart, its like you said, we act like we last saw each other 30 min ago.
But, burn me once, and youll never get the chance again.
I have learnt a number of very hard and sobering lessons in the past few years. One of which was this week only.....a 'friend' that I would have trusted with my life, gave me the hardest, coldest lesson in betrayel that I have ever had. And in this industry, in a fairly 'small' company, I have had 'friends' turn out to be major 'maatjie- naaiers' before.
Getting ahead and looking out for 'number 1', is a survival technique, but unfortunately some people loose all integrity and apparently any compunction and self-respect in the process.
To my friends, I shall be a friend for life. After years apart, its like you said, we act like we last saw each other 30 min ago.
But, burn me once, and youll never get the chance again.
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Pay PEANUTS......and you'll get monkeys!
After the amount of money spent on getting into this career, some having funds available others working their way through from one hour to the next......I think it's disgraceful what some peolpe are willing do/take, to get the job.
But we've all been there at some point. DESPERATE! Not that that condones the behaviour of some of the fellow PROFESSIONAL pilots.
What a great thread, it will give us all some sort of perspective on the industry at present.
Salaries in Bots range from R6,500 to R 12,000. At the "little" charter companies.
Chief Pilots will usually be higher.
After the amount of money spent on getting into this career, some having funds available others working their way through from one hour to the next......I think it's disgraceful what some peolpe are willing do/take, to get the job.
But we've all been there at some point. DESPERATE! Not that that condones the behaviour of some of the fellow PROFESSIONAL pilots.
What a great thread, it will give us all some sort of perspective on the industry at present.
Salaries in Bots range from R6,500 to R 12,000. At the "little" charter companies.
Chief Pilots will usually be higher.
Thread Starter
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If there is one thing that I am glad about, by starting this thread, it has become apparent, that a lot of us feel the same way about the way we are being treated. We all have lived in that Container for peanuts, we all have been stabbed in the back by “friends” and we all have seen the “juniors” taking on jobs for the sake of building hours.
I just hope that all those “juniors” will realise that someday they will also be “seniors” and that they will realise by selling themselves short, they hurt themselves in the long run. YES, we all need to start somewhere to build hours and we are desperate, so we will try anything to get hours.
So this is for all those guys starting out. When I started out I used to do a lot of skydiving flying to build hours. It worked for me, so why not for you. By doing that I build my hours without stepping on “seniors” toes. There is also Crop Spraying, Safety pilot, Tug pilot and certain companies that specialise in hiring young guys with low hours. The problem is finding out about these companies. To give you an example, I was flying skydivers in Cape Town looking for more permanent work, thinking that if I do not have at least a thousand hours, I would not get anywhere. Then when I moved to Jo-Burg I was very pissed off when I put my CV in with a company called Streamline, only to be told that I was over qualified. It turns out that they only wanted low time pilots to fly for them. So yes, as hard as it sounds, there is always a gap for the low time “junior”.
Just the other day I heard about a pilot that got a job on a Metroliner recently with only 200 hours and a com. I know, it sounds like a dream, but it does happen. The question is, how do these guys does it?
Here is a tip, sell yourself to the aviation community. If they don’t know about you, how can they hire you?
And when you really feel like you have done enough, do that extra bit more. But remember, never, NEVER EVER sell yourself too cheap. When you start out and you think that it will help you to undercut your fellow pilot, remember this, three years down the line when you are a “senior” and you don’t understand why you cant get the salary you deserve, think about how all the “juniors” are undercutting you out of your job.
Another tip to all those new pilots walking around. The going rate in Lanseria for Piston and turbo prop pilots are R1.30/km and R130.00 SNT a day. And that means R130.00 Day, R130.00 Night and R130.00 day.
Use these guidelines for all our benefits. To all the old pilots at Lanseria, Help the young guys; tell them the rate of the day. By doing this, you will be helping yourself.
So I plead with all the pilots again, give me the info on salaries that you think is fair so that we can put together a Guideline for the “junior” pilots so that they will know what to charge for being a professional, respected pilot. So, once again, my e-mail address is [email protected] Send me YOUR guidelines so that we can help those who come after us.
Good luck to all and watch those stab wounds
I just hope that all those “juniors” will realise that someday they will also be “seniors” and that they will realise by selling themselves short, they hurt themselves in the long run. YES, we all need to start somewhere to build hours and we are desperate, so we will try anything to get hours.
So this is for all those guys starting out. When I started out I used to do a lot of skydiving flying to build hours. It worked for me, so why not for you. By doing that I build my hours without stepping on “seniors” toes. There is also Crop Spraying, Safety pilot, Tug pilot and certain companies that specialise in hiring young guys with low hours. The problem is finding out about these companies. To give you an example, I was flying skydivers in Cape Town looking for more permanent work, thinking that if I do not have at least a thousand hours, I would not get anywhere. Then when I moved to Jo-Burg I was very pissed off when I put my CV in with a company called Streamline, only to be told that I was over qualified. It turns out that they only wanted low time pilots to fly for them. So yes, as hard as it sounds, there is always a gap for the low time “junior”.
Just the other day I heard about a pilot that got a job on a Metroliner recently with only 200 hours and a com. I know, it sounds like a dream, but it does happen. The question is, how do these guys does it?
Here is a tip, sell yourself to the aviation community. If they don’t know about you, how can they hire you?
And when you really feel like you have done enough, do that extra bit more. But remember, never, NEVER EVER sell yourself too cheap. When you start out and you think that it will help you to undercut your fellow pilot, remember this, three years down the line when you are a “senior” and you don’t understand why you cant get the salary you deserve, think about how all the “juniors” are undercutting you out of your job.
Another tip to all those new pilots walking around. The going rate in Lanseria for Piston and turbo prop pilots are R1.30/km and R130.00 SNT a day. And that means R130.00 Day, R130.00 Night and R130.00 day.
Use these guidelines for all our benefits. To all the old pilots at Lanseria, Help the young guys; tell them the rate of the day. By doing this, you will be helping yourself.
So I plead with all the pilots again, give me the info on salaries that you think is fair so that we can put together a Guideline for the “junior” pilots so that they will know what to charge for being a professional, respected pilot. So, once again, my e-mail address is [email protected] Send me YOUR guidelines so that we can help those who come after us.
Good luck to all and watch those stab wounds
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International Salary Guidlines
Hey Guys
Great topic, and I'm sure alot of us have pondered this idea at least once in thier journey through this volitile industry.
Before I start, feel free to correct me on some of my idea's or add where you see fit! (I'm still relatively new to this industry, but have lived vicariously through some high time friends who have been dragged around like a dirty mop to get jobs that barely pay enough to support a small kitten)
I think there are alot of variables that go into this "Salary Guildline" and I'm not too sure that it would be all that attainable.
My first concern is quite obvious to me, and perhaps I've missed something in this thread (I'm a skim reader). Different parts of the world have very different economies, and life stlyes. I don't think it's correct to compare a wage of a 2nd year 1900 Capt living in Johannesburg ,South Africa, to a 2nd year 1900 Capt living in New York (I'm using 2 extremes to prove my point).
Lets say that both the S.A. and U.S. Capt makes 3000US$. Anyone who has lived in either of these cities, or knows anything about them will know that an S.A. operator will have a hard time paying a pilot $3000US, and if he/she could, the pilot would live like a king(maids, nice car, the whole 9 yards). The pilot living in New York, will live in a studio, drive a 1986 Tercel, and eat mcdonalds everyday. I understand too, that the guy in New York will have the amenities that Johannesburg doesn't but I think I've made my point.
One more little angle:
Who knows how much the company makes, and what their budgets are for pilots. What if they are flying cargo and making tonnes of cash, and the other company is flying pax... The cargo company "should" make alot more money (should the pilot get compensated?). Should the struggling company pay a 1900 Capt 3000US$ to conform to this guidline with the knowledge that he'll lose his business because he can't afford to pay the pilot this wage? Then when he drops the wage to $2000US, and a pilot takes it, will the pilot be black listed?
I don't know if making an "INTERNATIONAL salary guildline" would be advisable looking at it from this angle. Perhaps we, as pilots might want to start small, and simple if there is such a thing?
I'll leave my other points for another time, as I've already written a short novel on this one topic.
(sorry for for making this complicated, but the issue truely is, and if any of you can simplify this, I'll recommend the next Nobel Prize be in your name!)
As frusterated as you guys are
Chenzo
Great topic, and I'm sure alot of us have pondered this idea at least once in thier journey through this volitile industry.
Before I start, feel free to correct me on some of my idea's or add where you see fit! (I'm still relatively new to this industry, but have lived vicariously through some high time friends who have been dragged around like a dirty mop to get jobs that barely pay enough to support a small kitten)
I think there are alot of variables that go into this "Salary Guildline" and I'm not too sure that it would be all that attainable.
My first concern is quite obvious to me, and perhaps I've missed something in this thread (I'm a skim reader). Different parts of the world have very different economies, and life stlyes. I don't think it's correct to compare a wage of a 2nd year 1900 Capt living in Johannesburg ,South Africa, to a 2nd year 1900 Capt living in New York (I'm using 2 extremes to prove my point).
Lets say that both the S.A. and U.S. Capt makes 3000US$. Anyone who has lived in either of these cities, or knows anything about them will know that an S.A. operator will have a hard time paying a pilot $3000US, and if he/she could, the pilot would live like a king(maids, nice car, the whole 9 yards). The pilot living in New York, will live in a studio, drive a 1986 Tercel, and eat mcdonalds everyday. I understand too, that the guy in New York will have the amenities that Johannesburg doesn't but I think I've made my point.
One more little angle:
Who knows how much the company makes, and what their budgets are for pilots. What if they are flying cargo and making tonnes of cash, and the other company is flying pax... The cargo company "should" make alot more money (should the pilot get compensated?). Should the struggling company pay a 1900 Capt 3000US$ to conform to this guidline with the knowledge that he'll lose his business because he can't afford to pay the pilot this wage? Then when he drops the wage to $2000US, and a pilot takes it, will the pilot be black listed?
I don't know if making an "INTERNATIONAL salary guildline" would be advisable looking at it from this angle. Perhaps we, as pilots might want to start small, and simple if there is such a thing?
I'll leave my other points for another time, as I've already written a short novel on this one topic.
(sorry for for making this complicated, but the issue truely is, and if any of you can simplify this, I'll recommend the next Nobel Prize be in your name!)
As frusterated as you guys are
Chenzo
ZbV
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Chenzo.
I agree with you 100%. A pilot making 3000 a month in Johannesburg lives very well indeed and a pilot in New York or any big city in US of A with 3000 a month, well he just lives.
Where I slightly disagree with you si your comparison about Johannesburg to New York. Johannesburg and Pretoria have al the amenities of a large US city and all of those of large European cities. Once could say that you have best of both continents.
Selling one cheap is counterproductive in the long run. But people do it. Been there done that as well.
My first "airline' job in US flying a city to small tourist town shuttle. This was done as non-sched ops, but still left about the same time. This way they could legally fly us 1400 hours a year under pt135. We had weeks and weeks without a single day off...
Job paid about 700$ a month. How could I live with that? I could more when you flew a lot, early average came to that! being treated like crap by the company provided for a real mess.
As a result people would just leave without any notice. One morning they where just not in town anymore.
Some companies insist on paying it's people late. Even if the company has no financial problems. Having experienced this firsthand I have started to think that it is some kind of a control issue. If one is owed 2 months salary or more a pilot is more reluctant to walk away from the money and stick around.
Then come the lies... Yes everything will be paid on Friday, conveniently so that no questions will be asked before Monday. There allways seemed to be an explanation why money was not transferred on time.
Alll for now
JJ
I agree with you 100%. A pilot making 3000 a month in Johannesburg lives very well indeed and a pilot in New York or any big city in US of A with 3000 a month, well he just lives.
Where I slightly disagree with you si your comparison about Johannesburg to New York. Johannesburg and Pretoria have al the amenities of a large US city and all of those of large European cities. Once could say that you have best of both continents.
Selling one cheap is counterproductive in the long run. But people do it. Been there done that as well.
My first "airline' job in US flying a city to small tourist town shuttle. This was done as non-sched ops, but still left about the same time. This way they could legally fly us 1400 hours a year under pt135. We had weeks and weeks without a single day off...
Job paid about 700$ a month. How could I live with that? I could more when you flew a lot, early average came to that! being treated like crap by the company provided for a real mess.
As a result people would just leave without any notice. One morning they where just not in town anymore.
Some companies insist on paying it's people late. Even if the company has no financial problems. Having experienced this firsthand I have started to think that it is some kind of a control issue. If one is owed 2 months salary or more a pilot is more reluctant to walk away from the money and stick around.
Then come the lies... Yes everything will be paid on Friday, conveniently so that no questions will be asked before Monday. There allways seemed to be an explanation why money was not transferred on time.
Alll for now
JJ
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Bois!
Its market forces at wek! Supply and demand. More supply than demand at the present time.
The low time guys, sure they will take work for nothing, because they feel they HAVE TO, otherwise they don't get a start. Sh1t situation, but its the one they find themselves in.
The rest of us, well, there's always someone else willing and able and available who wants your job.
We live in tough times in the aviation sector.
If you REALLLY want to stick together, one way to ensure better pay in the years ahead would be for all of us to agree to stop instructing. Then demand would outstrip supply, and the salaries would go up accordingly.
There's been a jump in the number of schools around the country, and as per the last edition of Airnews, there's been a jump in the number of student pilots too - so, guess what? Worse times ahead, bois.
The good news is that the Rand is weakening again and I expect to see R8 to the $ back soon in a Rennies near you. This will mean more profit for the operator and being the good-hearted samaritans that they are, they'll surely pass this windfall onto you, the poor struggling pirate, i mean pilot.
Its no use bleating about salaries unless you can do something about it, and as long as there's someone willing to work for less than you, you're on thin ice. And there'll always be someone willing to work for less than you as long as there are more jobs than pilots.
Pilotsalary = sqrt // salaryreqd / (Pilotsavail - 1)
One thing which would change things is if our CAA and the JAA people were to do some rubbing the old palms with silver and come to an agreement - that'll reduce the pilot population of Southern Africa somewhat...
Its market forces at wek! Supply and demand. More supply than demand at the present time.
The low time guys, sure they will take work for nothing, because they feel they HAVE TO, otherwise they don't get a start. Sh1t situation, but its the one they find themselves in.
The rest of us, well, there's always someone else willing and able and available who wants your job.
We live in tough times in the aviation sector.
If you REALLLY want to stick together, one way to ensure better pay in the years ahead would be for all of us to agree to stop instructing. Then demand would outstrip supply, and the salaries would go up accordingly.
There's been a jump in the number of schools around the country, and as per the last edition of Airnews, there's been a jump in the number of student pilots too - so, guess what? Worse times ahead, bois.
The good news is that the Rand is weakening again and I expect to see R8 to the $ back soon in a Rennies near you. This will mean more profit for the operator and being the good-hearted samaritans that they are, they'll surely pass this windfall onto you, the poor struggling pirate, i mean pilot.
Its no use bleating about salaries unless you can do something about it, and as long as there's someone willing to work for less than you, you're on thin ice. And there'll always be someone willing to work for less than you as long as there are more jobs than pilots.
Pilotsalary = sqrt // salaryreqd / (Pilotsavail - 1)
One thing which would change things is if our CAA and the JAA people were to do some rubbing the old palms with silver and come to an agreement - that'll reduce the pilot population of Southern Africa somewhat...
Join Date: May 2001
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I came across an interesting note on Zimbawe. The largest note printed is $500, and it won't buy a beer.
A roll of toilet paper with 72 sections cost $1,000. If you use $10 notes to wiper yer awrse, you save $280.
A roll of toilet paper with 72 sections cost $1,000. If you use $10 notes to wiper yer awrse, you save $280.