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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

S-Works 14th Apr 2019 20:54


Originally Posted by sapperkenno (Post 10447206)

I didnít mention anything to do with poor flying conditions or flying outside their licence privileges. Merely, in the case of ferry flying, paradropping, aerial survey etc there are probably much more capable PPLs for the job than CPLs. Not in every case, but my point is that a CPL isnít the be all and end all of piloting skills for certain roles - putting aside the legal aspects.

Capability or shall we say pure ability is not everything. CPL training helps people form better decision making processes. Generally its PPLs who think they are superior that think a CPL is not needed to do Commercial flying tasks and are usually the same people who will complain that the exams and the training are too much hard work/overkill/waste of time etc.......

ak7274 17th Apr 2019 12:33


Originally Posted by S-Works (Post 10447523)


Capability or shall we say pure ability is not everything. CPL training helps people form better decision making processes. Generally its PPLs who think they are superior that think a CPL is not needed to do Commercial flying tasks and are usually the same people who will complain that the exams and the training are too much hard work/overkill/waste of time etc.......

And quite a few of said CPLs are quite willing to fly Dodgy charters too. Decision making isn't limited just to PPLs either.
I would suggest that ones career and training, whether it be in Aviation or not steers us into good and not so good decisions.

Making a PPL/CPL a director of a company involved in renting Aircraft, so that he can rent on shared costs, then get profits from the Company is also legal. So PPL rents aircraft from Company at £350 an hour. Cost shares and pays £10 an hour towards flying with the passengers on a shared basis. Flies 2 hrs. £700 to Company. Pilot as director gets £220, £200 profit for a PPL.

Is this more or less correct?
If so, is it it "right"

S-Works 17th Apr 2019 17:28

Nope, none of it is right. The FAA "common purpose" rules are the way to go and banning outfits like Wingly as well.

I understand now that they have now identified the real owner of the aircraft which is going to damn one individual.......

ak7274 17th Apr 2019 19:13


Originally Posted by S-Works (Post 10449706)
Nope, none of it is right. The FAA "common purpose" rules are the way to go and banning outfits like Wingly as well.

I understand now that they have now identified the real owner of the aircraft which is going to damn one individual.......

Is it legal and how many are doing it?
I agree It's not right, but if the CAA make an AOC so bloody difficult and expensive, what do we expect?

Chronus 17th Apr 2019 20:08


Originally Posted by ak7274 (Post 10449783)
Is it legal and how many are doing it?
I agree It's not right, but if the CAA make an AOC so bloody difficult and expensive, what do we expect?

On the understanding that the second question is not rhetorical, I would offer the following comment.
If something is not affordable and it would involve breaking the law to obtain it then one must not obtain it. Take for example being offered one of these latest highly sought after mobile phones. If you are offered one at your regular watering hole really cheap and it turns out to have been knocked-off, could you be accused of being a receiver. Perhaps not the same thing will apply to flying services, but for sure you would know that it is cheap and any sense and reason should raise some doubts in your mind whether it is dodgy or not. If you are offered cheap fags, will you not suspect that they may have been smuggled.
Turning onto the matter of AOC`s being difficult and expensive to obtain, does that not show that it is for the sake of safety that it is. Should these legit operators who provide such services cut corners,cheat, fiddle, employ PPL`s, not carry out maintenance, fit bogus parts and do anything and everything to reduce costs to such levels so as to compete with rogues and put them out of their illegal businesses once and for all.
So, no I don`t go along that the root cause for unlawful acts is cost. That the blame may be laid on prohibitive cost of goods and services. If that would be sufficient to say excuse a thief, a cheat, a fraudster, then we might as well throw away all our law books and close all our prisons and turn them into housing of which we are in such short supply.

Some say laws are made to be broken and some do subscribe to that. But those who make a lifetime habit of it invariably do come a cropper sooner or later. Unfortunately in some cases their habit does have an impact on some unfortunates who have innocently been involved in their habits of dodging and diving.

As far as I can understand the whole mess, my conclusion is that it seems the regulatory authorities limited resources have so far been more focused on those who operate legitimate businesses and not enough on the unregulated sectors. I can only hope that this tragic event will be the catalyst for future change.

meleagertoo 18th Apr 2019 00:04


Some say laws are made to be broken and some do subscribe to that.
Bear in mind that no one but a person with dishonest/criminal mind could ever say that...

S-Works 18th Apr 2019 16:24

Laws are meant to be changed where they are wrong, not broken.....

Chronus 18th Apr 2019 21:02


Originally Posted by meleagertoo (Post 10450017)
Bear in mind that no one but a person with dishonest/criminal mind could ever say that...

That is absolutely correct and is precisely why it has been cited.
The other reason why I have used it is within the context of "risk", which has been a feature of some of the discussion on this particular issue.

Chronus 18th Apr 2019 21:10


Originally Posted by S-Works (Post 10450547)
Laws are meant to be changed where they are wrong, not broken.....


Not a matter of changing the law, but flaunting it. And when that is evinced enforcing it firmly and with all its power and weight upon the offender.



Mike Flynn 21st Apr 2019 21:06

I hear from a reliable source the ill fated aircraft was used on a regular basis flying jockeys to racecourses.

Mike Flynn 23rd Apr 2019 21:46

BBC Wales running this update.


Cardiff City will insist that agents and intermediaries book only commercial flights when handling player transfers after the death of Emiliano Sala.

Sala, 28, died when the plane carrying him from Nantes to Cardiff crashed late on 21 January, and the legality of the flight has been questioned.

The club said it would be calling on football's governing bodies and other clubs to follow suit.

The aviation trade body believes illegal flights are common in the UK.

Air accident investigators are still looking into why the Piper Malibu plane carrying Sala to Cardiff for his first training session crashed into the English Channel.

The light aircraft was piloted by David Ibbotson, from Crowle, North Lincolnshire, whose body has not been found.

The legality of Sala's flight has not yet been established, but a preliminary report from air accident investigators in February said the pilot was not licensed to carry fee-paying passengers and the plane was not registered for commercial flights.

Cardiff City said it "wholeheartedly" backs the Air Charter Association's (BACA) calls "to secure a review of illegal flights".

The organisation argued the crash "must be a watershed moment", and called for better enforcement and heavier punishments for pilots and individuals who undertake illegal flights.

"We have long argued that illegal flights are harming the legal air charter industry and putting lives of the travelling public at risk," said BACA chief executive Dave Edwards.

Cardiff and Penarth MP Stephen Doughty supports the calls, adding: "We need to make sure this is never allowed to happen again."



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48031453

Edward Teach 23rd Apr 2019 23:37

Would you class a private jet (either Turbofan or Turbo prop) as a 'commercial flight' if its fully licensed, run under the terms of an AOC and flown by fully qualified, type rated and adequately experienced ATPLS?

Chronus 24th Apr 2019 19:42


Originally Posted by Edward Teach (Post 10454225)
Would you class a private jet (either Turbofan or Turbo prop) as a 'commercial flight' if its fully licensed, run under the terms of an AOC and flown by fully qualified, type rated and adequately experienced ATPLS?

You may find the CAA Summary at the following link helpful in dealing with this question

:SUMMARY OF THE MEANING OF COMMERCIAL AIR TRANSPORT, PUBLIC TRANSPORT & AERIAL WORK


https://webarchive.nationalarchives....009May2010.pdf

Capvermell 26th Apr 2019 13:40

I heard very tragic news just now on BBC Radio 4 of the sudden death of Sala's father from a heart attack at age 58.

Having lost a relative (my father) much too young at age 64 to a sudden heart attack when he was still in the midst of everything I can only begin to imagine the mental and emotional torment Mr Sala senior has been going through and while he may have had an underlying heart problem I highly doubt his death would have occurred this early in life without the appalling devastation of their place in the world and their financial situation that their son's tragic and wholly unnecessary death will have caused.

If Mr Ibbotson could be called to account he surely has an awful lot to answer for, although as unlike the pilot in the Shoreham crash or the pilot flying the Tiger Moth in which my late Uncle was killed in 1958 (in his early 20s) he did not survive while everyone else died he is at least saved from that ordeal.

I wonder if the Sala family will possibly now consider suing either of the two football clubs regarding the circumstances of their son's death or if there is watertight proof that Mr Sala acted completely on his own and without their knowledge in making these travel arrangements.

Echo Romeo 26th Apr 2019 16:39

Blimey this is still running. Who's Henderson?

Chronus 26th Apr 2019 19:34


Originally Posted by Echo Romeo (Post 10456478)
Blimey this is still running. Who's Henderson?

BACA has referred to this incident as a " watershed moment ". I agree with them. I hope it does indeed prove to be precisely that.
For that reason I also hope that the monitors of PPRUNE do allow it to remain active. At least such time when we may all come to the knowledge that, at least the heavy price paid by the tragic loss of lives may have been of some future benefit to others. Perhaps, then, we may also get to know who Henderson is.


Jonzarno 26th Apr 2019 21:58

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this tragedy: who can not shed tears for what has befallen the Sala family?

Chronus 27th Apr 2019 20:10


Originally Posted by Jonzarno (Post 10456690)
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this tragedy: who can not shed tears for what has befallen the Sala family?

A man cries from within, and those with kind hearts are easily overwhelmed by a torrent of tears. Such a man must have been Sala`s father.

Mike Flynn 29th Apr 2019 22:07


Originally Posted by Echo Romeo (Post 10456478)
Blimey this is still running. Who's Henderson?

David Hendeson was involved in importing and to a degree operating the Piper Malibu that was flown by Dereck Ibbotson on the night of the tragic accident.

See here



Pilots across the world risk their lives in the lucrative but high-stakes ferry flying industry.

These are men and some women who deliver small planes across oceans and continents; distances these aircraft were not designed to fly.

Pilot Dave Henderson has made almost a hundred transatlantic crossings in light aircraft, sometimes in extreme conditions.

BBC News went to meet Mr Henderson at Retford Gamston Airport and got a rare insight into the largely hidden world of ferry flying.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazi...-a-ferry-pilot



Originally Posted by Jonzarno (Post 10456690)
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this tragedy: who can not shed tears for what has befallen the Sala family?

A terrible tragedy Jon.

Thank you for posting a brief insight in to what is a family period of ongoing grief.

The AvgasDinosaur 1st May 2019 17:09


Originally Posted by Mike Flynn (Post 10459217)


David Hendeson was involved in importing and to a degree operating the Piper Malibu that was flown by Dereck Ibbotson on the night of the tragic accident.

See here




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazi...-a-ferry-pilot




A terrible tragedy Jon.

Thank you for posting a brief insight in to what is a family period of ongoing grief.

when was that BBC report recorded ?
i couldnít find a copyright date, sorry
thanks
be lucky
David


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