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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

Slowclimb 25th Jan 2019 16:09


Originally Posted by Good Business Sense (Post 10370616)
FYI - You can have a piston single on an AOC.

But only VFR.

BRIEFING OFFICER 25th Jan 2019 16:14


Originally Posted by vintage ATCO (Post 10369839)
Hardly. I was plugged in on Luton Radar that evening when the phone line from Heathrow rang to ask if I was working N6645Y, it had disappeared off radar. We had been in the clear but later went out in fog. The last visibility Hill was given for Elstree was 800m with no instrument let down #gethomeitis. There were three fatal accidents that night.

Hill’s FAA IR had lapsed, so had his UK IMC rating; his UK PPL was still valid. The aeroplane’s US registration had been cancelled three years previously; it was unregistered and stateless.

Needless loss of life as will be this case.


One of them at Birmingham Airport..all others had diverted to EMA.. 3 killed..Pilot had heart probs and safety pilot was from the club.....

captainspeaking 25th Jan 2019 16:16

Maintenance
 
No one on the thread has mentioned aircraft maintenance. Does anyone know who holds the maintenance records for the accident aircraft? Was the a/c signed off as serviceable before the accident flight? At Gamston, perhaps?

ChickenHouse 25th Jan 2019 16:22


Originally Posted by Good Business Sense (Post 10370616)
FYI - You can have a piston single on an AOC.

For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.

Luc Lion 25th Jan 2019 16:26

@Eutychus,

back to your account of 2 flights in small piston engine to and from Jersey : you can only consider that you are transported by professional people if the aircraft operator holds an AOC.
The list of AOC holders in Jersey and Guernsey is here (page 32) : https://cidca.aero/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=115363&p=0
Under some conditions, air taxi UK AOC holders can also operate from the Channel Islands. The list is here: https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...-Certificates/

Until recently (and but for a handful exceptions), air transport in IMC could only be performed with twin engine aircrafts.
See, for instance, the Beechcraft BE-90 for low profile operation,
Since 1 March 2017, EASA has issued a regulation that authorises IMC operation with single engine turbine aircraft (example: Cessna Caravan, Socata TBM, Pilatus PC12).
So you could come across AOC holders operating single engine turbine aircraft.

Winniebago 25th Jan 2019 16:29


Originally Posted by captainspeaking (Post 10370633)
No one on the thread has mentioned aircraft maintenance. Does anyone know who holds the maintenance records for the accident aircraft? Was the a/c signed off as serviceable before the accident flight? At Gamston, perhaps?

Probably Reach Aerospace, Paul Kinch, at Gamston


Originally Posted by ChickenHouse (Post 10370635)
For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.

It's patently obvious this N-Registered aircraft was not a Part-135 charter operation

Good Business Sense 25th Jan 2019 16:31


Originally Posted by Slowclimb (Post 10370625)
But only VFR.

Goes without saying ! Comment is correct

Redlands 25th Jan 2019 16:34

Is it known how Sala got to Cardiff for his signing on?

Good Business Sense 25th Jan 2019 16:35


Originally Posted by Winniebago (Post 10370646)
It's patently obvious this N-Registered aircraft was not a Part-135 charter operation

Can't be unless given Seventh freedom rights by the UK and French governments - i Believe.

Luc Lion 25th Jan 2019 16:37


Originally Posted by Good Business Sense (Post 10370616)
FYI - You can have a piston single on an AOC.

I was writing to Eutychus, which is not a pilot.
You know that AOC with a SEP is restricted to day VFR.

Good Business Sense 25th Jan 2019 16:37


Originally Posted by ChickenHouse (Post 10370635)
For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.

Comment accurate in response to the comment made

Good Business Sense 25th Jan 2019 16:42


Originally Posted by ChickenHouse (Post 10370635)
For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.

.... to be precise ........ you CAN fly a piston single IFR on an AOC ..... just not on a commercial flight ....... 30-15 :-)

GotTheTshirt 25th Jan 2019 16:43

Minimum sign off would require an FAA A and P Mechanic sign off.. Higher maintenance such as an Annual would require an FAA I.A. ( inspection Authorisation) or an FAA Certificated Repair station. I would imagine that the log book entries would make interesting reading.

sellbydate 25th Jan 2019 16:51

Has the actual beneficial owner of the aircraft been verified anywhere? US databases show this Ms Fay Keely at a company called Cool Flourish Ltd, but that hasn't been acknowladged anywhere else so far? Photographs of it in a Gamston hangar, but no verification that this is where it lived most of the time - i.e. it's home base.

Good Business Sense 25th Jan 2019 16:53


Originally Posted by Luc Lion (Post 10370651)
I was writing to Eutychus, which is not a pilot.
You know that AOC with a SEP is restricted to day VFR.

Hi Luc Lion, I get what you're trying to say but your comment is incorrect

The PA46 of the accident at hand was not fit for AOC operation (engine is not a turbine).
Rgds

Eutychus 25th Jan 2019 16:56

shy torque Thanks, very helpful.


Originally Posted by ChickenHouse (Post 10370607)
Besides from the 'CPL needed?' part, his FAA PPL license may have been ok for the VFR-Day trip.

Excuse my ignorance. Again. Is the CPL requirement conditional on remuneration irrespective of flying conditions (which is what I've understood so far), or are you saying a PPL could suffice for a flight with a paying passenger if it was VFR-Day?

Luc Lion thanks again. A similar question about aircraft type. What about SEP in daytime VFR conditions?

(Armed with some of the info learned here I have established that the Cherokee I flew on is owned by a company that does not appear to hold an AOC, at least not at the time of posting).

(According to the document Luc Lion linked to, " At present the Jersey Aircraft Registry does not permit commercial air transport or aerial work" (!) so AOCs have to be obtained from the UK or... Guernsey!!).

[cross-post]

Luc Lion 25th Jan 2019 17:14

@Eutychus,
PPL means that the pilot may not earn money for the flight and that he may not fly in the context of a commercial operation (ie: the service, transport or aerial work, may not be sold).
Of course there are some exceptions, but they don't play a role here.
A CPL (commercial pilot) may be paid and hired for a commercial operation.

SEP = single engine piston
SET = single engine turbine (turbopropellor or jet)
MEP = multi-engines piston
VFR = visual flight rules (only flights in visual meteorological conditions, day or night, are approved. A special qualification is required for night-VFR)
IFR = instrument flight rule (flight in day or night visual meteorological conditions or in instrument meteorological conditions. An instrument rating IR qualification is required)
IMC = instrument meteorological conditions (you can't see outside or the outside references are below some minima)

For AOC in Jersey/Guernsey, the 2 islands have a common aeronautical administration.
They happen to have put all AOC on the Guernsey registry.

For your account of your 2 flights to and from Jersey, there are only 3 "legal" possibilities:
- your business relation rented 2 charters flights from an official air-taxi company (AOC holder). The chance that such a company operates a single piston engine aircraft are very close to zero.
- your business relation organised a private flight by renting a small aircraft on a dry lease and hiring a commercial pilot separately.
- the pilot was your business relation, his associate or one of his close friend and this pilot organised the flight by himself.
In the third case, before the flight, the pilot could have asked you if you agree to share the direct cost of the flight.
In the second case, your business relation is not allowed to ask you to pay anything.
I am afraid that anything else (and matching your account) is illegal.

ChickenHouse 25th Jan 2019 17:21

@Eutychus: I am very sorry for not formulating precise enough!

AFAIK,
IF paying customer THEN CPL mandatory
IF NOT CPL THEN no remuneration

What I meant was, if this was not a paying customer, a FAA validation on a day-only CAA FCL PPL may be ok for a day-VFR flight. Typical, I take a friend A-B.

ETOPS 25th Jan 2019 17:40

Just bringing this point up in relation to the low cruising altitude question.

When asked why this flight didn't show on the usual tracking sites, FR24 replied the the transponder was either not working or "old" equipment. I take this to mean it was Mode C and thus not eligible to enter the airways system in Europe as a Mode S transponder is mandated.

Having recently replaced my old Mode C unit with a new Class 1 Mode S device (at under £2000) I wonder why this upgrade had not be auctioned in this case?

Eutychus 25th Jan 2019 17:48

Thanks for taking the time, Luc Lion, I think I have it now :)

In the various cases my client flew me and one other person and I personally never saw any paperwork. But I think you're right, it probably wasn't legal, as I understand it now because a) no AOC b) probably no CPL c) I am virtually certain money changed hands against a receipt.

I am given to understand that my client proceeded on the basis of seeing a pilot's licence and an (unspecified) insurance certificate.

What's really getting through to me here is that unless a client is really really clued up to the point of having either specialist advice or knowing a lot about general aviation themselves, it's really really easy for a pilot to give the impression of providing a legal and (reasonably) safe service when one may not be getting either.


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