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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

Auxtank 25th Jan 2019 17:56


Originally Posted by ETOPS (Post 10370710)
Just bringing this point up in relation to the low cruising altitude question.

When asked why this flight didn't show on the usual tracking sites, FR24 replied the the transponder was either not working or "old" equipment. I take this to mean it was Mode C and thus not eligible to enter the airways system in Europe as a Mode S transponder is mandated.

Having recently replaced my old Mode C unit with a new Class 1 Mode S device (at under £2000) I wonder why this upgrade had not be auctioned in this case?

From the BBC Vid of DH (2015) it looks like a BK KT97 (immediately below the Strike Finder) which is Mode C

Nothing to say it didn't get an upgrade between then and now.

ELT circled in red from earlier post.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....eb07c9499a.jpg

DaveReidUK 25th Jan 2019 17:59


Originally Posted by ETOPS (Post 10370710)
Just bringing this point up in relation to the low cruising altitude question.

When asked why this flight didn't show on the usual tracking sites, FR24 replied the the transponder was either not working or "old" equipment. I take this to mean it was Mode C and thus not eligible to enter the airways system in Europe as a Mode S transponder is mandated.

Having recently replaced my old Mode C unit with a new Class 1 Mode S device (at under £2000) I wonder why this upgrade had not be auctioned in this case?

There are a fair number of GA aircraft flying with transponders that transmit Mode S but not ADS-B. The two aren't synonymous. That may or may not be the case here.

The Old Fat One 25th Jan 2019 18:12


Really nothing much to do with N- registration or Commercial or EU legislation . Everyone of us could have been caught in this
No, absolutely not. The vast majority of professional aviators I have worked with over the years (measured in hundreds) would have stopped a shambles like this before it started. That said, I worked in GA for two years, and witnessed a number of monumentally stupid things...so if your comment is GA-centric, it is hard not to agree.

ShyTorque 25th Jan 2019 18:23

It sounds like problems with serviceability caused ongoing delays in the departure time (three previous attempts to take off have been mentioned).
It's possible that one pilot, having previously been involved (and therefore being recorded as having cleared security) declined to depart by night.

Sir Niall Dementia 25th Jan 2019 18:46


Originally Posted by Eutychus (Post 10370721)
Thanks for taking the time, Luc Lion, I think I have it now :)

What's really getting through to me here is that unless a client is really really clued up to the point of having either specialist advice or knowing a lot about general aviation themselves, it's really really easy for a pilot to give the impression of providing a legal and (reasonably) safe service when one may not be getting either.

\

And then you get organisations like Wingly where 100 hour PPL's can advertise to take you flying on what are effectively A to A Commercial flights (sightseeing) without a commercial license, AOC or any other of the myriad checks and balances those of who provide aviation services as a living are subject too.

My Flight Ops Inspector was shamefaced when I asked him how he dare turn up and audit us when the CAA allow Wingly. Cost sharing and the Wingly principal have dropped standards of safety for people in ignorance of the rules. A couple of PPL's sharing a trip know the deal they are entering into, the man in the street be he dustman or premiership footballer have no real chance of knowing the truth.

Grant Shapps, MP for Welwyn and Hatfield and owner of a Cirrus SR22 pushed hard for this situation via his "Red Tape Challenge" The red tape (and fees) for AOC's went up and an area of GA became the wild west. Well done Grant! you [email protected]@t!

SND

cncpc 25th Jan 2019 18:57

Just a comment on the discussion of AOC etc. It reflects the practice in Canada and I suspect it is the same over in the UK, but...

The renting of an aircraft without crew is not considered a commercial air service here. It probably isn't there. So any entity can rent the aircraft, and then has to find a pilot. If the renter is involved in arranging the pilot, then it becomes a grey area.


mryan75 25th Jan 2019 18:57


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10369939)


If, and I don’t know if this is the case here, a pilot is recruited by someone who knows he doesn’t have the correct qualifications but knows he is cheap; is it only the pilot who is at fault or the person offering the money as well? If, and I don’t know if this the case here, an aircraft owner doesn’t enquire what their aircraft is going to be used for and doesn’t care about the qualifications of the pilot; is it only the pilot who is at fault or the aircraft owner as well?

It so blatantly obvious how many non-pilots there are on what is supposed to be a professional pilots' forum.

Wycombe 25th Jan 2019 19:02


Grant Shapps, MP for Welwyn and Hatfield and owner of a Cirrus SR22 pushed hard for this situation via his "Red Tape Challenge" The red tape (and fees) for AOC's went up and an area of GA became the wild west. Well done Grant! you [email protected]@t!
The aforementioned Rt Hon Mr Shapps is also of course the Chairman of The All-Party Parliamentary Group on General Aviation (APPG-GA)!

mryan75 25th Jan 2019 19:11


Originally Posted by five zero by ortac (Post 10370299)
Unfortunately, you don't have to look to hard on Facebook to find PPL holders with aircraft offering to 'fly you anywhere'. My local area residents FB page has three pilots regularly posting (advertising) to fly you, none of which are locally based.

If it's in the US, report them to the FAA. Take screenshots of the posts. I know people who have their tickets pulled for **** like that. The FSDOs around where I am have absolutely zero tolerance for that sort of thing.

CBSITCB 25th Jan 2019 19:13


Originally Posted by sellbydate (Post 10370669)
Has the actual beneficial owner of the aircraft been verified anywhere? US databases show this Ms Fay Keely at a company called Cool Flourish Ltd, but that hasn't been acknowladged anywhere else so far?

For what it’s worth, there is strong evidence that a Fay Keely has a UK PPL.

Cool Flourish has its registered address in Matlock. Fay Keely is company secretary and a director. Her address is given as being in Alfreton, which is 8 miles from Matlock.

On the website of Baker Consultants (based in Matlock) a Fay Keely is listed as part-time Finance Director. Her bio includes “I have a private pilots licence and have flown over the east coast of the UK seal watching”.

As I say, for what it’s worth, but it's a small piece in the jigsaw...

mryan75 25th Jan 2019 19:18


Originally Posted by rotorspeed (Post 10370352)
This flight was patently so stupid with so many blindingly obvious high risk factors - old plane, single engine, piston engine, night, winter, fairly poor weather, across extensive water, virtually unsurvivably cold water, poorly qualified pilot, inadequately competent pilot, single pilot. And no doubt more.

At least the first four things you list are not "blindingly obvious high risk factors". I can't believe anyone who is honestly involved in aviation would call an 80s PA-46 "old". Nos. 2 and 3 on your list have to be a joke, otherwise half the planes on earth would crash every day.

Sir Niall Dementia 25th Jan 2019 19:24


Originally Posted by Wycombe (Post 10370761)
The aforementioned Rt Hon Mr Shapps is also of course the Chairman of The All-Party Parliamentary Group on General Aviation (APPG-GA)!

And that doesn't make the situation right.

Admittedly this aircraft comes/came under US jurisdiction, as did the license of the pilot, and a whole lot of questions need to be answered about what went on. But, cost sharing was based around friends flying together. Not commercial advertising for trips to the South of France, where the actual costs to the "cost sharer" are roughly the same as the cost of the whole trip, and such flights are advertised on the Wingly website today. And the French very sensibly banned Wingly flights at the outset, although I don't know the legal status of such flights in France now.

I challenge Mr Shapps to come on to PPRUNE and justify what I see as a gross reduction in the safety of the trailing public. If he reads my posts he'll know exactly who I am, I asked for such justification face to face in the past.

SND

clareprop 25th Jan 2019 19:25

Speculation is one thing but personally, I feel this thread is getting a bit free and easy with some peoples names who have not been mentioned in the investigation or indeed in the press.

Good Business Sense 25th Jan 2019 19:25


Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia (Post 10370754)
\

And then you get organisations like Wingly where 100 hour PPL's can advertise to take you flying on what are effectively A to A Commercial flights (sightseeing) without a commercial license, AOC or any other of the myriad checks and balances those of who provide aviation services as a living are subject too.

My Flight Ops Inspector was shamefaced when I asked him how he dare turn up and audit us when the CAA allow Wingly. Cost sharing and the Wingly principal have dropped standards of safety for people in ignorance of the rules. A couple of PPL's sharing a trip know the deal they are entering into, the man in the street be he dustman or premiership footballer have no real chance of knowing the truth.

Grant Shapps, MP for Welwyn and Hatfield and owner of a Cirrus SR22 pushed hard for this situation via his "Red Tape Challenge" The red tape (and fees) for AOC's went up and an area of GA became the wild west. Well done Grant! you [email protected]@t!

SND

Sir Niall, I would not disagree with one syllable.

Wingly has given further cover to the illegal charter mob many of whom fly N REG machines. There is no oversight anywhere.

"Cost sharing" is now a new cottage industry (wingly, flyer on the pub notice board, Facebook etc) and it is sending a message that the next step up or down, i.e. "illegal charter", if you prefer, is ok - nobody is going to bother you. If you look at the Wingly website some of the prices on there are certainly money makers - I understand 6 seaters are selling well.

Unfortunately, AOCs are disappearing extremely fast - companies cannot complete with 100 hour PPLs who have to meet almost no regulatory requirements - when the next recession comes around and there are no airline jobs then there will be no levels below to fall back on. In addition, going forward, as we appear to be leaving EASA British licensed pilots will be as rare as ....... insert as required.

The regulator (joke), as they like to be known, has been well informed.

mryan75 25th Jan 2019 19:32


Originally Posted by what next (Post 10370517)
Hello!

Many of the answers we don't know yet, therefore much is based on assumption (e.g. from watching others perform similar flights) and "half-information" from the internet and newspapers.



1. We don't know anything for sure about that.

2. Obviously not. Any type of commercial flying would therefore have been illegal. Even with an (American) AOC, a commercial flight between European countries carrying European passengers would have required a heap of paperwork ("cabotage").
And even with an AOC, this kind of aircraft (single engine piston) would only have been allowed to do flights under visual flight rules (VFR). And even a single engine turbine (SET) aircraft operating legally under an AOC and carrying passengers would have had to observe minimum distances from alternate enroute airfields (to enable an engine-out gliding landing) which at their intended cruising altitude of 5000ft over the sea would not have been met. (This is a Europen regulation for SET commercial operation.)

3. If he was paid in any way for his flying he would have needed a CPL. But we do not know if he received imuneration. If he flew out of courtesy for his buddy who himself borrowed the plane to his soccer player buddy for gas money only then he would not have needed a CPL.

4. On a private flight it would not have mattered as long as the pilot and the aircraft hold the necessary qualification. Commercially it would not have been possible to do this under IFR (see point 2).

5. We don't know yet. But any penny changing hands that exceeds cost sharing would have made the whole thing illegal.

6. EU airspace has nothing do do with it I think.

Regards
Max

Regarding point 3, in the US he sure as hell would have needed a CPL in the hypothetical you describe! Taking the flight you otherwise would not have undertaken yourself, and doing it without paying any of the costs? That is "compensation" for damn sure per the FARs.

Arkroyal 25th Jan 2019 19:35

Sir Niall! Well said.

I had had never heard of Wingly until this thread and was frankly amazed by it. Wild West indeed. As you say, the fine tooth comb rightly applied to any commercial operation for the safety of the public is totally circumvented by this lunacy.

A few few questions I haven’t seen answered are whether Sala was flown in the same aircraft to Nantes after signing on Saturday? If so did he have two pilots? DI and DH? If not how was DH going through security with them on Monday (if he did). Did he sensibly decline the mission only for DI to heroically ‘save the day’ by setting off on his own?

how old is DI? As a PPL of course it’s academic. But if a CPL the difference between 59 and 60 is crucial as he couldn’t operate commercially as a single pilot at 60.

I’d reckon that DI amassed the vast majority of whatever hours he had day VFR. He was totally out of his depth at night and in bad weather and icing conditions. His admitted ‘bit rusty’ comes nowhere near it!

More questions than answers. And those with the answers are keeping shtum. Probably with legal advice to.




dalgetty 25th Jan 2019 19:54

DH claims he hasn't been to Nantes for a year. The French authorities swear that a Flightplan was opened in his name and that his ID was used in the airport.
Perhaps all of the above is true, but then why was DI using DH's identity?
And why did he then change his mind once the flight was delayed until evening?

dsc810 25th Jan 2019 20:06


Originally Posted by Arkroyal (Post 10370790)
how old is DI? As a PPL of course it’s academic. But if a CPL the difference between 59 and 60 is crucial as he couldn’t operate commercially as a single pilot at 60.



Well we know he was a plumber and gas repairer.
A check of his plumbing business (if I have the right one!) gives the Gas Safe register number as 195505
Check the Gas safe register gives his full initials as David A Ibbotson
Its also gives his full contact and address details which I shall not repeat on here but it matches the address given in the media generally.
I then check the UK's freebmd births marriage,deaths index to get his birth and that comes up in the search range of 1958 to 1960 with only one David A Ibbotson born in the UK and that entry is for the December quarter of 1959 in Cleethorpes meaning he was born in Oct, Nov or Dec of 1959.
The indexes at that time only gave the date to the nearest quarter: - you can't do this thing with common names like John smith as there are too many of them to differentiate the right one each quarter.
So there is most likely your answer....

Arkroyal 25th Jan 2019 20:13


Originally Posted by dsc810 (Post 10370810)
Well we know he was a plumber and gas repairer.

So there is most likely your answer....

Thanks for the detective work. dsc.

so he could have a CPL but looks pretty unlikely.

Tomahawk53 25th Jan 2019 20:16


Originally Posted by ETOPS (Post 10370710)
Just bringing this point up in relation to the low cruising altitude question.

When asked why this flight didn't show on the usual tracking sites, FR24 replied the the transponder was either not working or "old" equipment. I take this to mean it was Mode C and thus not eligible to enter the airways system in Europe as a Mode S transponder is mandated.

Having recently replaced my old Mode C unit with a new Class 1 Mode S device (at under £2000) I wonder why this upgrade had not be auctioned in this case?

The PA28 I fly has a Mode S transponder...sometimes the flights show up on FR24...sometimes they don't.


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