PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Accidents and Close Calls (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls-139/)
-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

PerPurumTonantes 23rd Jan 2019 16:44

Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 10368419)
I share the sense of outrage at this stupid loss of life. However, can you tell me what you would ban/regulate to stop it happening?

That's always the kneejerk response. Something bad happens, jobsworths and armchair experts fall over each other looking for things to ban, regulate, and bury in paperwork.

Situation (we think): Complacent pilot makes bad decisions, drives plane into water. That's his responsibility, and he's had the ultimate punishment for it.
Problem: He had someone innocent with him that did not know the risks.
Solution: Tell people what the risks are.

The fact that this is all over every newspaper and website is a good start! What a lesson. Everyone in the country knows not to take a SEP over the Channel in bad weather in winter. Even the decorator who's painting my walls just now brought it up today.

If there was going to be any regulation, how about this. Any private pilot taking a passenger must email them a list of all the ways this flight is more dangerous than a commercial jet, together with a photo and summary of a related accident.

This aircraft does not have anti-icing equipment.
This aircraft does not have TAWS. TAWS warns the pilot when the aircraft is too close to the ground.
This aircraft does not have TCAS. TCAS is a collision avoidance system.
Your pilot is not IFR qualified. This means he/she can only fly where they have a clear view ahead and of the ground. Flight through clouds is prohibited.

...etc. And if the passenger still wants to go ahead, that's their risk.

fireflybob 23rd Jan 2019 16:48

Daily Mail Report

I note that according to this report the pilot is 60. Whilst I have nothing against older pilots per se and notwithstanding that this might have been a "private" flight I believe the maximum age for single crew commercial operations under EASA is 60 years.

CBSITCB 23rd Jan 2019 16:51

Can't post a link but it appears the pilot posted a video on YouTube in 2017 relating to Skydive Jersey. Search on "Dave Ibbotson". Of course, it could be a different Dave Ibbotson but the association with sky diving would be a bit of a coincidence.

If true it may be an indication that he was at least familiar with flying in the CI area.

Edit: as this is my 10th post I can now post the link -

Arkroyal 23rd Jan 2019 16:52

The more I think about this the more angry I become that cost sharing rules are able to be bent in this way. For the sake of a few quid, and let’s understand that the football ‘Industry ‘ is swimming in the stuff, this likeable young man on the threshold of a sparkling career has been snuffed out.

The pilot too. Poor man was way way out of his comfort zone and probably flying illegal IMC, without the back up or experience to know when or how to say ‘no’.

Some utter idiot thought this crazy scheme was a good idea. Whoever that was needs to suffer whatever sanctions the law can apply. Sadly it is probably zero. And I suspect that whoever it is will still sleep well and shrug it all off.

Someone asked earlier ‘what can be done?’

I say a lot. Get these flag of convenience aircraft on the G register and regulate the private sector properly to protect all parties!

Througjout my flying career I was amazed that most of the unwashed think a ‘private pilot’s licence’ is what we all use, no matter the type of flight. They will never educate themselves or ever be in a position to meaningfully risk assess their decisions in this field.

So so the CAA must do it for them. And quickly.


OPENDOOR 23rd Jan 2019 16:52

Also on this type of flight there is usually the human factor element of the pilot being under pressure to complete the mission. Non aviators often do not understand that flights sometimes have to be cancelled due weather etc. It's best to explain right from the onset that it might not go ahead and ask the passenger(s) what their plan B is. This primes them up if you have to cancel on the day.
I used to warn my prospective passengers with the adage "time to spare, go by air"

anchorhold 23rd Jan 2019 16:54

... and a class one medical and ECG every six months!

Geriaviator 23rd Jan 2019 17:00

The worst fright I ever had was in my Arrow 1 into Birmingham. Forecast FL was about 3000ft and I had enjoyed the sunshine in the airway at FL070 for the previous hour before being cleared to descend, entering cloud at about 5000ft. I knew there were no obstacles in the warm air below but I couldn't believe the rate of ice buildup -- the temp probe atop the windscreen became fist-size in less than a minute, prop ice caused so much vibration that I throttled back in case the airframe was shaken to bits, I fancied the controls were getting sloppy. ATC was brilliant, clearing me immediately to 2000ft and warning other aircraft in the TMA. The ice cleared in seconds from 3000ft but when I returned to the aircraft seven hours later there was still a chunk of ice in the air intake. Never again. I can only imagine the terror of those two people in the Malibu that night.

Also on this type of flight there is usually the human factor element of the pilot being under pressure to complete the mission. Non aviators often do not understand that flights sometimes have to be cancelled due weather etc.
Many years ago there used to be numerous illegal charters to the Isle of Man at TT time. I watched as one PPL dashed out to his Cherokee and took off VFR to retrieve the punters he had taken across earlier that week. Mist/low cloud was covering the south of the island and he flew into rising ground north of Chicken Rock/IOM VOR. Some thought he had mixed up his radials, some thought he had tried to use the offset VOR, I thought thank goodness he killed himself on his way to pick up the passengers rather than on the way there. I fear this Wingly thing is a disaster waiting to happen even without the perils of icing in a piston single -- or even a light twin -- or even a very heavy twin, for I recall a ice-related fatal in the Spanish mountains which claimed one of the finest pilots who ever gave me an aerobatic lesson.

The Old Fat One 23rd Jan 2019 17:04

Insurance experts on here have said that private flying would be covered.
That would be me (yes, I have taught sea survival and sold life insurance, and plenty of other stuff too).

since I have no wish to propagate erroneous information, let me quickly clarify...then hopefully, discussion can return to operational flight safety matters, of which there seem to be plenty!

All other things being equal and normal (I obviously have no idea if this is the case)...

IF the pilot had normal life insurance taken out in the UK, he would have declared his regular flying activity and his premium would have been loaded accordingly.

IF the passenger had normal life insurance taken out in Europe or the UK, he would be covered for this accident, unless there was a clear stipulation in his policy that this type of flying (as an occasional passenger) was specifically excluded. All excluded activities, whatever they are, must be so stipulated in plain English, normal size font, in the policy document (these days an easy to read booklet) which together with the full document chain (quotes, statement of particulars, all questions and answers, Key Facts Illustration, Key Features, Demands and Needs Statement, et al) form the binding contract between Insurer and Insured and are subject to huge oversight and compliance.

Phew...lets move on...especially as none of us know the particulars of all the insurance policies that may or may not be in place and frankly there are somewhat more pertinent flight safety matter to discuss as articulated by several posters previously.

Perhaps, not surprisingly given our backgrounds, ArkRoyal has pretty much summed up where I am at right now. I'm also a Dad, so can only imagine the pain this chaps old man will be going through. It is heartbreaking.

But I have a sense (and this in not going to be popular here) that this event, coupled with a few others in progress just now, here and abroad, are going to a throw a much-needed spotlight into the world of GA.

jecuk 23rd Jan 2019 17:04

Originally Posted by Arkroyal (Post 10368518)
Someone asked earlier ‘what can be done?’

I say a lot. Get these flag of convenience aircraft on the G register and regulate the private sector properly to protect all parties!

A terrible accident but I failt to see what your proposal would achieve. The FAA does not allow these Wingly schemes, it is European regs approved by the CAA that allow it. The pilot apparently had an EASA licence. If this pilot had no IR then why would he behave any differently in a GReg?

Pseudo-charter is a problem, but that isn’t the solution.

rr84c 23rd Jan 2019 17:15

Looks like he didn’t have a valid instrument rating either. If you look on the FAA Airman database (anyone can search it) there are two David Ibbotsons and neither has an IR.

If he has an EASA IR, that’s irrelevant - he can’t fly N-reg in France IFR on a U.K. licence without it being on his American one. Yet he tells people on Facebook he’s doing ILSs.

Good Business Sense 23rd Jan 2019 17:31

As many on here know - there are many "interesting" N REG operations in the UK with interesting licensing and indeed interesting maintenance/spares provision. The problem is NO OVERSIGHT therefore more people are doing it.

mikebrant 23rd Jan 2019 17:34

Jumping in:
Maybe they were flying over 5000ft (I think that the minimum IFR altitude for this route would be 6000ft, correct me if mistaken) and the pilot, noticing a problem, contacted ATC for 2300ft to reach the closest IAF available from Alderney airport (2000ft min requested for these IAFs).

rr84c 23rd Jan 2019 17:38

Originally Posted by Good Business Sense (Post 10368559)
As many on here know - there are many "interesting" N REG operations in the UK with interesting licensing and interesting maintenance/spares provision. The problem is NO OVERSIGHT therefore more people are doing it.

The problem is that the only real oversight comes when claiming on insurance, which is often too late, as it is in this case.

Brunoo 23rd Jan 2019 17:59

Originally Posted by Vilters (Post 10368434)
@ runway30

There's no way to "ban/regulate" these unfortunate happenings.

Absolutely disagree.

As far as we know...

Single pilot...single engine piston ...Ice conditions.

It's very clear to me(as far as we know ) that the pilot did not wanted to tell a "soccer star" or his staff a simply "no..we can go in this conditions''
He was a skydiver pilot as i am. One thing is to flight around the airport under VMC conditions other is crusing at night..ice conditions with a important person on board.
Takeoff it's not mandatory..landing it's.

Off course all of this based on guessing.

Auxtank 23rd Jan 2019 18:04

Developments are getting me, as others here, increasing angry.
This accident is looking less like the unfortunate lining up of holes in the Swiss cheese and more like the deliberate exploitation of loopholes and blurring of interpretation of regulations.
Either way - a thorough investgation in to how this flight was allowed to be conducted must be rigorously scrutinised and the findings acted upon, with appropriate legislation in a most timely manner.

runway30 23rd Jan 2019 18:13

More regulation will only hit people who comply with the regulations already. The people who ignore them will still continue to ignore them.

korrol 23rd Jan 2019 18:13

The AAIB has issued this statement today:-"
"On Monday night, a US-registered Piper PA-46-310P Malibu aircraft (registration N264DB) was lost from radar north of Guernsey. The aircraft was en route from Nantes, France to Cardiff, United Kingdom, with one pilot and one passenger on board.In accordance with international protocols, the AAIB is investigating the loss of the aircraft. Since Tuesday morning, we have been working closely with international authorities including the US National Transportation Safety Board, the Bureau d’Enquêtes & d’Analyses (BEA) in France and the Junta de Investigación de Accidentes de Aviación Civil (JIACC) in Argentina.We will be gathering all the available evidence to conduct a thorough investigation. However, if the aircraft is not found it is likely to limit the scope of the investigation."

PC767 23rd Jan 2019 18:15

Just listened to the footballer’s final WhatsApp message via the news. I was more interested in listening to the background noise rather than his words. I would take a guess that the message was broadcast during taxi rather than flight, but I’m not familiar with the engine or interior noise of this aircraft.

meleagertoo 23rd Jan 2019 18:16

Quote from The Times.

The CAA confirmed that Mr Ibbotson had a valid PPL and there was nothing to prevrnt an American-registered private aircraft being used for charter flights
I'm not getting this.

I thought a CPL and AOC are among the requirements to charter.
I also thought that N reg could not charter here. Surely an N reg can't be on a UK AOC without special dispensation. How do you square that with the CAA's statement above? Where are they coming from?
If this goon had a UK, even a US PPL he had no right being involved in a charter.
He apparently had no IR so even if he had a CPL he'd be illegal on htis route at night and IMC?
He was in an N reg aeroplane in the first place.

How can legal charter come out of this?

Or is the CAA weaselling words to avoid answering the question?

rr84c 23rd Jan 2019 18:18

We don’t need more regulation. We just need the regulation enforced / people to realise that people need to be appropriately licensed including for safety reasons.

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:17.

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.