AA5342 Down DCA

[LOWI]

RIP.

US ATC has been screwing up a lot over the past 2 years. Runway incursions and near misses in the air. Tonight the Swiss cheese holes have aligned and 16 years of US aviation safety has come crashing down into the icy cold Potomac river. Anybody remember our last hero of that river Lenny Skutnik?

US ATC needs an immediate review because this crash might not be the only one for us in 2025...

[Someone Somewhere]

Originally Posted by WideScreen

Not sure how an approach like this one can be flown with an ILS, even a GPS based approach I have my doubts to be able to fly that precise, etc.

I was talking about visual separation; I should have been clearer.

I think, the better option would be to not rely on "bright lights" but suitably illuminated big surfaces, IE an airplane should illuminate its own surfaces. For this particular case, that might not have made a big difference, given the near head-on approach for a long time.

This accident was certainly "setup" in the procedures defined in this area, heavily relying on Humans not making (altitude (settings)) mistakes and Humans detection opportunities, for which we all know, the human is not really that well-designed for from scratch.

For this case, the helicopter corridor was designed to be below the approach path, though when the human makes even a small mistake and/or the weather makes the approach path a bit lower, things can go haywire quite easily.

Might have helped the CRJ see the helicopter (except a military helicopter probably won't be illuminated anyway). But if the helicopter crew has CRJ landing lights pointing at them, are they going to see anything? It seems like another poor-quality band-aid on top of the fundamental problem of trusting see-and-avoid and voice comms.

RVSM is 1000ft at higher altitudes; even if things had gone 100% to plan, this would have only provided, what, <300ft vertical separation? Is wake turbulence a threat to helicopters?

[C2H5OH]

RIP

Cowboy procedures and cowboy ops in cowboy land. Thinking you are the naturally born greatest aviators of all times, best trained at the mercy of bean-counters in the airlines and a can-do-attitude in the military?

Now close this darn airport which is there for convenience of the political class and their servants only. Fix parallel approches in SFO, reduce movements at JFK by 30%, etc p.p., the list is long. Or have a deja-vu in a couple of months.

[Junkflyer]

Obviously way too soon for a definitive answer, however the Helo calling the traffic in sight may have been the first or second hole in the cheese.

[cbradio]

Originally Posted by LessThanSte

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Did ATC switch attention to something else, and miss the opportunity to intervene when it became apparent that both aircraft were getting close. Etc.

Seems baffling that this could happen in such a tight controlled environment...

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If a helicopter is "passing behind" a jet they have previously sighted, they are going to get close. That's the point of visual separation.

doing like that at night, with so many aircraft and ground clutter, I'm not so sure about

[LOWI]

Originally Posted by C2H5OH

Now close this darn airport which is there for convenience of the political class and their servants only. Fix parallel approches in SFO, reduce movements at JFK by 30%, etc p.p., the list is long. Or have a deja-vu in a couple of months.

Absolutely agree! Lufthansa refused the night visual separation a couple of years ago at SFO for this very reason! They were punished by US ATC because of this! We must never take these stupid risks with passengers onboard!

But what will be the response to this crash? Increase the 1500 hour rule most likely.... Europe has guys with 200 hours flying 737s and A320s between countries where English is the 2nd language!

[Return_2_Stand]

Having followed many of the near misses in the US in recent years, I find US ATC procedures scary. I always thought it was just a matter of time.

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by LOWI

RIP.

US ATC has been screwing up a lot over the past 2 years. Runway incursions and near misses in the air. Tonight the Swiss cheese holes have aligned and 16 years of US aviation safety has come crashing down into the icy cold Potomac river. Anybody remember our last hero of that river Lenny Skutnik?

US ATC needs an immediate review because this crash might not be the only one for us in 2025...

I think, it's pretty early to call out this to be an ATC issue. Not to say, the whole issue is just built into the system being used in crowded airspaces, with very limited reserves for human mistakes.

[fdr]

Originally Posted by Someone Somewhere

I was talking about visual separation; I should have been clearer.

Might have helped the CRJ see the helicopter (except a military helicopter probably won't be illuminated anyway). But if the helicopter crew has CRJ landing lights pointing at them, are they going to see anything? It seems like another poor-quality band-aid on top of the fundamental problem of trusting see-and-avoid and voice comms.

The video shows the lights of the helicopter quite clearly, approaching the CRJ from about 2 o'clock to the CRJ.

[moosepileit]

Originally Posted by Return_2_Stand

Having followed many of the near misses in the US in recent years, I find US ATC procedures scary. I always thought it was just a matter of time.

Crossing runway finals at 200' at a distance that puts you wthin reach of the circling jet- tempting fate. TCAS in TA only, not RA by height, No ADSB In or Out improvement in this regime.

Final hole, see and avoid- target invisibe, sighted AAL3130 on Rwy1 straight in, not enough dissonance in all that to realize you cannot be following that next plane...

[fdr]

Originally Posted by Denflnt

I have seen comments that the AA CJ was diverted to a different runway. In the video I've seen, there was an aircraft taking off and banking to the left when the incident happened. I am wondering if the helo crew figured the AA flight was landing on the main runway and when asked, couldn't see them among the ground light clutter. Still, no reason I can see for that helo to be anywhere near that spot and ATC asking them if they had a visual on the CRJ indicates, to me, that ATC didn't have a picture was to what was going on.

The CRJ was in the 60's 9 o clock, and above the horizon relative to the 60. NVG if in use reduces peripheral vision, the crewman would usually locate on the RHS to support the command pilot.

[hawk76]

Do UH-60s have CVRs? As a training flight, there may have been too much attention inside and not enough outside.

[TBSC]

Originally Posted by hawk76

Do UH-60s have CVRs? As a training flight, there may have been too much attention inside and not enough outside.

Would you focus too much inside when passing right next to a major commercial airport in night VFR?

[Someone Somewhere]

Originally Posted by fdr

The video shows the lights of the helicopter quite clearly, approaching the CRJ from about 2 o'clock to the CRJ.

From this angle, yes. With ground clutter and looking at the helicopter from the other side...

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

If that’s a published route for heli , what ht does it state ?

I don’t imagine it’s “ remain below 350’” so they shouldn’t have been horizontally in the same place . Could controllers even see them that low ?

[WideScreen]

Originally Posted by Someone Somewhere

From this angle, yes. With ground clutter and looking at the helicopter from the other side...

With the CRJ crew probably having their attention focused to aim for runway 33, while performing the circle to approach. With a "clear to land" obtained, they even might be less aware, there might be something out there on a collision course with them.

Not to say, the helicopter declared a "CRJ in sight", which also implies from that moment on, the separation became their responsibility.

When flying myself, I am very hesitating to "accommodate" to ATC's information about other aircraft around me, since I then take over the separation responsibility, even when losing sight of the other aircraft(s).

[mobov98423]

Originally Posted by WideScreen

With the CRJ crew probably having their attention focused to aim for runway 33, while performing the circle to approach. With a "clear to land" obtained, they even might be less aware, there might be something out there on a collision course with them.

Not to say, the helicopter declared a "CRJ in sight", which also implies from that moment on, the separation became their responsibility.

When flying myself, I am very hesitating to "accommodate" to ATC's information about other aircraft around me, since I then take over the separation responsibility, even when losing sight of the other aircraft(s).

yeah,atc had nothing to do with this ;(

You Tube

[cbradio]

Originally Posted by Gne

The first lesson for surveillance controllers (and daughters learning to drive in roundabout country) - if the relative bearing is not changing - DO SOMETHING!!!

Gne

I "think" the ATC did. "Traffic sighted?" - "Pass behind."

[Veteran]

Why do so many recent air crashes involve "highly experienced" crews that are on training flights? Too much emphasis on what's happening inside the cockpit, and not enough concentration on what's happening outside?

[meleagertoo]

Pretty unlikely they'd be using NVGs obver a dazzlingly bright city I'd have thought.
At 300 ft doglegging onto a different runway in an airliner (whaaat??? Who the digamma thought that one up! No wonder Lufthansa refused it!) there's zero lookout for traffic going on.
Having spent much helo time over cities at night even at 800ft (the lowest I ever operated) you don't have too much attention left to scan the skies for traffic, and if something was on a collison course its lights are on a constant bearing ie stationary against the background lighting and would be very difficult indeed to spot. Additionally you would naturally not be looking for traffic against the city lights but above it. Even strobes would easily be misconstrued as some of the numerous flashing lights seen in cities at night. And if the helo was on a training flight both pilots' attention on surroundings is likely to be less than might be expected otherwise.

Compared to the stringent control of the London Helilanes and rigid procedures especially closer to Heathrow this entire airspace setup looks simply beyond belief from a European point of view.