AA5342 Down DCA
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: The Colonies
Helicopter Low Level Routes are standardized through out the DC area.
Military Operations are 24/7/365 due to National Security issues.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3851p....,0.268,0.125,0
Military Operations are 24/7/365 due to National Security issues.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3851p....,0.268,0.125,0
Joined: Mar 2015
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From: Virginia, USA
LC then approves AAL1630 for immediate takeoff runway 1 with advisory of CRJ on 2-mile left base for 33.
LC queries PAT25 “do you have the CRJ in sight”? No reply heard but LC then directs PAT25 to pass behind the CRJ.
PAT25 may have been watching next in sequence, AAL3130, landing runway 1, instead of CRJ.
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From: Maryland USA
Joined: May 2010
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From: Usually on top
The military helicopter did have a Mode S transponder, but no ADS-B out. The CRJ had a standard transponder with ADS-B out. In all my data sources, the helicopter is visible but only as an MLAT target, so its position in all the flight tracking feeds (ADSB Exchange and FR24) is inferred via time of arrival difference of the Mode-S signal at various receiver stations in the area (i.e. within 200-300m position precision).
TCAS however can operate off Mode-S signals alone, but as others have pointed out, during the late approach phase of a flight, TCAS RA is inhibited (but the target would have caused a TRAFFIC alert still and shown yellow/red on the TCAS display). The helicopter crew assuring the frequency they have identified them would have led them to believe they were cutting it close but will avoid.
It would have been a luck of the draw situation for the CRJ crew to see and avoid the helicopter. It's very hard to see a couple of light points moving against a sea of ground point lights at night. Assuming the CRJ had its logo light on, their only chance would have been for the helicopter crew to spot them (which they claimed they did?)
TCAS however can operate off Mode-S signals alone, but as others have pointed out, during the late approach phase of a flight, TCAS RA is inhibited (but the target would have caused a TRAFFIC alert still and shown yellow/red on the TCAS display). The helicopter crew assuring the frequency they have identified them would have led them to believe they were cutting it close but will avoid.
It would have been a luck of the draw situation for the CRJ crew to see and avoid the helicopter. It's very hard to see a couple of light points moving against a sea of ground point lights at night. Assuming the CRJ had its logo light on, their only chance would have been for the helicopter crew to spot them (which they claimed they did?)
Joined: Jan 2025
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From: NYC
is there consensus as to whether ATC is supposed to account for low level helicopter traffic? It seems like ATC would not be responsible for this since military routes are standardized. Someone else said change to 33 was normal procedure.
See and avoid
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: USA
Rescue crews are searching for the Black Hawk and its three crew members in the Potomac River, near the commercial aircraft crash site, defense officials said.
The Black Hawk took off from Fort Belvoir, Va., defense officials said, and was part 12th Aviation Battalion. The battalion is responsible for transporting VIP passengers, usually top Pentagon leaders. There were three crew members on board, the officials said, but none were VIPs.
The three troops on board the Black Hawk were conducting a training flight, according to a spokeswoman Joint Task Force-National Capitol Region.
“We can confirm that the aircraft involved in tonight’s incident was an Army UH-60 helicopter from Bravo Company, 12th Aviation Battalion, out of Davison Army Airfield, Fort Belvoir during a training flight. We are working with local officials and will provide additional information once it becomes available,” the spokeswoman said.
Usually, such flights are manned by a pilot, instructor pilot and crew chief.
The Black Hawk took off from Fort Belvoir, Va., defense officials said, and was part 12th Aviation Battalion. The battalion is responsible for transporting VIP passengers, usually top Pentagon leaders. There were three crew members on board, the officials said, but none were VIPs.
The three troops on board the Black Hawk were conducting a training flight, according to a spokeswoman Joint Task Force-National Capitol Region.
“We can confirm that the aircraft involved in tonight’s incident was an Army UH-60 helicopter from Bravo Company, 12th Aviation Battalion, out of Davison Army Airfield, Fort Belvoir during a training flight. We are working with local officials and will provide additional information once it becomes available,” the spokeswoman said.
Usually, such flights are manned by a pilot, instructor pilot and crew chief.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: 3rd Rock, #29B
Condolences to all involved, and their families, and the teams that will be involved in the recovery. The chance of survivors in this event was vanishingly small.
Joined: Dec 2019
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From: OnScreen
Could it be this becomes another case that the regulatory defined airplane exterior (including landing light) lighting (especially for small RJ) is simply insufficient to let it stand out in the airport / city Xmas tree of lighting?
And the chopper crew simply had the next airplane in sequence of landing in sight and not the one they collided with?
RIP
And the chopper crew simply had the next airplane in sequence of landing in sight and not the one they collided with?
RIP
Joined: Jan 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: US via Oz, Honkers & Blighty.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Seat 1A
Originally Posted by Physicus
It's very hard to see a couple of light points moving against a sea of ground point lights at night.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Down south, USA.
My extra prayer, other than for the victims' families, and possibly for a truly despondent ATC controller
, is that No children were on the CRJ.
All of my flights into DCA (1985-2017) --mostly DC-9, MD-88, 717 --were on the profiles over the Potomac River, to land on Rwy 19, or for Rwy 01, flying the ILS or a charted visual while going north over the river.
We Never were required to use "see-and-avoid" to maintain safe separation from helicopters or any fixed-wing aircraft iirc.
Was the ATC controller so Busy watching Other aircraft on his radar that he could not clear the helicopter to fly a southeast (ie 150 *) heading--- to keep it well east of the final approach for Rwy 33, until the CRJ was clearly west of the heli, on final approach?
Or a similar separation?
, is that No children were on the CRJ.All of my flights into DCA (1985-2017) --mostly DC-9, MD-88, 717 --were on the profiles over the Potomac River, to land on Rwy 19, or for Rwy 01, flying the ILS or a charted visual while going north over the river.
We Never were required to use "see-and-avoid" to maintain safe separation from helicopters or any fixed-wing aircraft iirc.
Was the ATC controller so Busy watching Other aircraft on his radar that he could not clear the helicopter to fly a southeast (ie 150 *) heading--- to keep it well east of the final approach for Rwy 33, until the CRJ was clearly west of the heli, on final approach?
Or a similar separation?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th January 2025 at 05:25.
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From: New Zealand
Could it be this becomes another case that the regulatory defined airplane exterior (including landing light) lighting (especially for small RJ) is simply insufficient to let it stand out in the airport / city Xmas tree of lighting?
And the chopper crew simply had the next airplane in sequence of landing in sight and not the one they collided with?
RIP
And the chopper crew simply had the next airplane in sequence of landing in sight and not the one they collided with?
RIP
Visual management of traffic isn't really acceptable, especially at night against a backdrop.
Can I argue this is the 'fatal runway incursion' everyone has been warning the US is going to have?
Last edited by Someone Somewhere; 30th January 2025 at 05:29. Reason: Reply to 2nd post.
Joined: Dec 2019
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From: OnScreen
This feels like an alarm fatigue/ever-brighter-light problem. If you make aircraft lights even brighter, you'll start asking questions about other safety lights in the area and going round and round in circles.
Visual management of traffic isn't really acceptable, especially at night against a backdrop.
Visual management of traffic isn't really acceptable, especially at night against a backdrop.
I think, the better option would be to not rely on "bright lights" but suitably illuminated big surfaces, IE an airplane should illuminate its own surfaces. For this particular case, that might not have made a big difference, given the near head-on approach for a long time.
I really hate to say it, but I kind of have to agree. See above. This helicopter path may as well be a taxiway crossing an active runway, with the same levels of risk. Why are they allowed to loiter on the runway path; why are they allowed into the approach corridor with an aircraft on approach?
Can I argue this is the 'fatal runway incursion' everyone has been warning the US is going to have?
Can I argue this is the 'fatal runway incursion' everyone has been warning the US is going to have?
For this case, the helicopter corridor was designed to be below the approach path, though when the human makes even a small mistake and/or the weather makes the approach path a bit lower, things can go haywire quite easily.
Joined: Mar 2019
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From: San Diego
I have seen comments that the AA CJ was diverted to a different runway. In the video I've seen, there was an aircraft taking off and banking to the left when the incident happened. I am wondering if the helo crew figured the AA flight was landing on the main runway and when asked, couldn't see them among the ground light clutter. Still, no reason I can see for that helo to be anywhere near that spot and ATC asking them if they had a visual on the CRJ indicates, to me, that ATC didn't have a picture was to what was going on.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Solihull
Interviewee on the BBC a few minutes ago suggested, as above, the potential for the helicopter crew to have mistakenly identified the aircraft departing (on further back on approach) rather than the CRJ they hit.
On the face of it, that seems stupid but is, I guess, entirely plausible as others have noted above (angles, spotting the specific dot of a moving light!).
But that ignores all of the other systems which could prevent such an incident. Did ATC switch attention to something else, and miss the opportunity to intervene when it became apparent that both aircraft were getting close. Etc.
Seems baffling that this could happen in such a tight controlled environment...
On the face of it, that seems stupid but is, I guess, entirely plausible as others have noted above (angles, spotting the specific dot of a moving light!).
But that ignores all of the other systems which could prevent such an incident. Did ATC switch attention to something else, and miss the opportunity to intervene when it became apparent that both aircraft were getting close. Etc.
Seems baffling that this could happen in such a tight controlled environment...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
https://www.kansascity.com/news/stat...299420529.html
Several coaches and skaters with the United States figure skating team were on the flight from Wichita to Washington, D.C., that crashed Wednesday night, according to athletes. The skaters were part of the National Development Team, a training program for top juvenile figure skaters.
The U.S. Figure Skating Championships were held in Wichita from Jan. 20 to Jan. 26. Some young athletes stayed in the city until Jan. 28, for National Development Camp, an advanced training program.
Team USA pair skater Luke Wang told McClatchy News that skaters who qualified for the elite division stayed an extra day, after which Wang said several boarded American Airlines Flight 5342.
Wang and others were notified by U.S. Figure Skating via text after the crash. “Praying for all those on the flight from wichita to dc,” Wang wrote on X on Wednesday night. “among the passengers were skaters and coaches. absolutely heartbreaking.”
Another skater, Team USA ice dancer, Ethan Peal tweeted, “I am in shock. Praying for families and my skating community,” in response to the news.
McClatchy News has reached out to U.S. Figure Skating to confirm whether the skaters were on the flight but has yet to hear back.
Several coaches and skaters with the United States figure skating team were on the flight from Wichita to Washington, D.C., that crashed Wednesday night, according to athletes. The skaters were part of the National Development Team, a training program for top juvenile figure skaters.
The U.S. Figure Skating Championships were held in Wichita from Jan. 20 to Jan. 26. Some young athletes stayed in the city until Jan. 28, for National Development Camp, an advanced training program.
Team USA pair skater Luke Wang told McClatchy News that skaters who qualified for the elite division stayed an extra day, after which Wang said several boarded American Airlines Flight 5342.
Wang and others were notified by U.S. Figure Skating via text after the crash. “Praying for all those on the flight from wichita to dc,” Wang wrote on X on Wednesday night. “among the passengers were skaters and coaches. absolutely heartbreaking.”
Another skater, Team USA ice dancer, Ethan Peal tweeted, “I am in shock. Praying for families and my skating community,” in response to the news.
McClatchy News has reached out to U.S. Figure Skating to confirm whether the skaters were on the flight but has yet to hear back.
Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Simply Towers.
How did the top many measures that are in place to prevent this not prevent this?
TCAS
ATC
ADS-B
See and Avoid
Filing a flight plan
Not operating in controlled airspace without a transponder
Not operating at a landing altitude for aircraft on final for a well used runway
Announcing an intention to cross a well used approach
Position lights/strobes
Landing lights
Just spitballing, but there's a non-zero chance NVGs were in use in the helicopter.
It sucks that the best part of this is the airplane was a CRJ, not a larger airliner. Most all those passengers would have survived the initial collision and been aware during the fall to the river.
I feel rage.
TCAS
ATC
ADS-B
See and Avoid
Filing a flight plan
Not operating in controlled airspace without a transponder
Not operating at a landing altitude for aircraft on final for a well used runway
Announcing an intention to cross a well used approach
Position lights/strobes
Landing lights
Just spitballing, but there's a non-zero chance NVGs were in use in the helicopter.
It sucks that the best part of this is the airplane was a CRJ, not a larger airliner. Most all those passengers would have survived the initial collision and been aware during the fall to the river.
I feel rage.
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From: Switzerland
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From: With the Wizard