CL-215 down in Greece
R.I.P guys. You did your best.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.
Last edited by RichardJones; 25th Jul 2023 at 19:48.
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
Last edited by meleagertoo; 25th Jul 2023 at 19:29.
Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
I was simply trying to pay my respects to two people who put others before themselves - not making any comments about how well or badly they flew the aircraft ! In my mind, their actions in those circumstances were heroic , mistakes or otherwise. It is a very sad day when you can’t pay your respects to two people who died in the course of trying to save the lives of others without someone trying to devalue those peoples’ efforts !
Clipped that tree with the right wing, tore off the right pontoon (possibly jammed/bent the right aileron deflected upward), and put the plane into a hard skid - all at low airspeed. Couldn't roll left, and hard left rudder would have slipped the plane lower. He ran out of options pretty fast. RIP
R.I.P guys. You did your best.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.
Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” - Teddy Roosevelt
Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
For a moment I though the video was a replay of a similar tragic event (was it in Italy last year?). The circumstances are disturbingly similar.
Most - if not all of the pilots of the fire bombers I work with have extensive AG experience, and it's really needed in these kind of ops. If you are low enough to clip a tree, you have misread the terrain or were unsighted in the approach to the drop, or you are operating outside of your reserves of experience.
The wind strength and direction can be ascertained by the smoke coming off the fire. It looks to be fairly strong and it will be very gusty as well because the wind is curling over the ridge on the far side of the outbreak; that's also indicated by the actual fire behaviour. Is this a "clutching hand" scenario as well? Perhaps not; there appear to be other factors at work here here and they all conspired to bring about this tragic outcome.
Most - if not all of the pilots of the fire bombers I work with have extensive AG experience, and it's really needed in these kind of ops. If you are low enough to clip a tree, you have misread the terrain or were unsighted in the approach to the drop, or you are operating outside of your reserves of experience.
The wind strength and direction can be ascertained by the smoke coming off the fire. It looks to be fairly strong and it will be very gusty as well because the wind is curling over the ridge on the far side of the outbreak; that's also indicated by the actual fire behaviour. Is this a "clutching hand" scenario as well? Perhaps not; there appear to be other factors at work here here and they all conspired to bring about this tragic outcome.
Last edited by FullOppositeRudder; 26th Jul 2023 at 00:53.
Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
How about instead of gratuitous comments like "it should have been flyable" and "military pilots lack training, are 'gung ho', unsuited to the task" etc , we wait for the expert investigators to do their job? Part of the investigation will likely include recommendations for future aerial fire fighting.
Meantime, show some respect, please..
meleagertoo. According to this thread over on the military side the pilots where both members of the Greek Air Force. Makes me question your comment and view point. Hellenic Airforce Pilots killed in crash while fighting fires
perhaps water bombers should be the first zero-crewed aircraft, it's probably the most dangerous flying job out there so could work well for remote control. I imagine there's a lot of on the spot judgment required as to when exactly to drop the retardant but excellent optics but especially for this should help, or have the drop controlled by a controller bird dog plane flying above the scene..
For a moment I though the video was a replay of a similar tragic event (was it in Italy last year?). The circumstances are disturbingly similar.
Most - if not all of the pilots of the fire bombers I work with have extensive AG experience, and it's really needed in these kind of ops. If you are low enough to clip a tree, you have misread the terrain or were unsighted in the approach to the drop, or you are operating outside of your reserves of experience.
The wind strength and direction can be ascertained by the smoke coming off the fire. It looks to be fairly strong and it will be very gusty as well because the wind is curling over the ridge on the far side of the outbreak; that's also indicated by the actual fire behaviour. Is this a "clutching hand" scenario as well? Perhaps not; there appear to be other factors at work here here and they all conspired to bring about this tragic outcome.
Most - if not all of the pilots of the fire bombers I work with have extensive AG experience, and it's really needed in these kind of ops. If you are low enough to clip a tree, you have misread the terrain or were unsighted in the approach to the drop, or you are operating outside of your reserves of experience.
The wind strength and direction can be ascertained by the smoke coming off the fire. It looks to be fairly strong and it will be very gusty as well because the wind is curling over the ridge on the far side of the outbreak; that's also indicated by the actual fire behaviour. Is this a "clutching hand" scenario as well? Perhaps not; there appear to be other factors at work here here and they all conspired to bring about this tragic outcome.
Just like too add, "Target Fixation " can be also be a trap for the unwary, carrying out out low level operations.
Last edited by RichardJones; 26th Jul 2023 at 09:01.
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Hello from Greece i saw the crash live there was no way to save the plane. if the right wing didn't hit the tree it was a dope drop. I couldn't sleep later when i learned that the wife of one is pregnat 3 monthsSquadron Leader (I) Christos Moulas, 34 years old and co-pilot, Second Lieutenant (I) Pericles Stefanidis, 27 years old. where the people that died on the 215
R.I.P guys. You did your best.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.