SWA 737 overrun at BUR - Dec 6 2018
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Speed into the EMAS probably <30 kts
Originally Posted by safetypee
“Rolled to a stop !”
Considering that the aircraft stopped half way between the end of the runway and the airport wall / road, that is a lot of energy which has been absorbed. Not a ‘slow speed’ excursion then.
In addition to ‘Lawyers can be found in the grass at the end of the runway’
add
‘The sound of EMAS crunching is like lawyers’ cash registers at full speed.’
Considering that the aircraft stopped half way between the end of the runway and the airport wall / road, that is a lot of energy which has been absorbed. Not a ‘slow speed’ excursion then.
In addition to ‘Lawyers can be found in the grass at the end of the runway’
add
‘The sound of EMAS crunching is like lawyers’ cash registers at full speed.’
Peter Lemme has updated his blog, citing a number of FAA references on overrun prevention as well as design criteria for construction and certification of EMAS:
https://www.satcom.guru/2018/12/stop...ance.html#more
Near the bottom of the page:
An approximate 110 foot excursion into the EMAS occurred. This suggest that the airplane was travelling less than about 30 kntos.
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Thanks for the link Zeffy ; it presents a credible analysis.
There could be several quibbles in the details; based on the aircraft length the ‘estimated’ distance into EMAS is reasonable, as would be the speed. However the aircraft stopped ~> 50m beyond the threshold (thus faster at runway exit), and the attention getting safety point is that the wall is ~ 80m beyond the threshold - a distance margin equivalent of ‘third’ to ‘home base’ - so no sliding into ‘the wall’ !
The underlying point is that these types of incident should not occur, (the second EMAS at BUR) which indicates an accumulation of several contributing factors, perhaps something common to BUR.
There could be several quibbles in the details; based on the aircraft length the ‘estimated’ distance into EMAS is reasonable, as would be the speed. However the aircraft stopped ~> 50m beyond the threshold (thus faster at runway exit), and the attention getting safety point is that the wall is ~ 80m beyond the threshold - a distance margin equivalent of ‘third’ to ‘home base’ - so no sliding into ‘the wall’ !
The underlying point is that these types of incident should not occur, (the second EMAS at BUR) which indicates an accumulation of several contributing factors, perhaps something common to BUR.
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Actually this incident is at least the third EMAS save at BUR, A-Rod's G-II in 2006 is missing from some of the lists:
Saturday, October 14, 2006; 5:36 AM BURBANK, Calif. -- A private jet, carrying Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez and six others, overran a runway at Bob Hope Airport on Friday and was brought to a halt by an arresting system. "I spoke to Alex. He's fine," agent Scott Boras said.
A-Rod on Board Jet That Overruns Runway
A-Rod on Board Jet That Overruns Runway
The Associated PressSaturday, October 14, 2006; 5:36 AM BURBANK, Calif. -- A private jet, carrying Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez and six others, overran a runway at Bob Hope Airport on Friday and was brought to a halt by an arresting system. "I spoke to Alex. He's fine," agent Scott Boras said.
None of the seven people aboard were injured, federal officials said.The Gulfstream G-II carried five passengers and two crew members, the National Transportation Safety Board said in a statement from Washington, D.C. It departed from Las Vegas earlier in the day.The twin-engine jet was stopped by the Engineered Materials Arresting System, a 200-foot-long stretch of pavement injected with air bubbles designed to collapse under the weight of an aircraft as large as a Boeing 737 jet traveling as fast as 50 knots, airport spokesman Victor Gill said."It came to a pretty quick stop," Gill said.Damage to the aircraft was minor, the NTSB said.
A-Rod on Board Jet That Overruns Runway
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aterpster #60 ‘I would have either held or gone around.’
I have no problem with that view - as we sit in the sunshine and clear views of hindsight.
The lessons to be learnt will in the difference between our beliefs based on outcome, and the in-situation crew’s beliefs before the approach, and would we have performed any better.
I have no problem with that view - as we sit in the sunshine and clear views of hindsight.
The lessons to be learnt will in the difference between our beliefs based on outcome, and the in-situation crew’s beliefs before the approach, and would we have performed any better.
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
"... was stopped by the Engineered Materials Arresting System, a 200-foot-long stretch of pavement injected with air bubbles designed to collapse under the weight of an aircraft as large as a Boeing 737 jet traveling as fast as 50 knots."
"Rolled to a stop" and "crunched to a stop" is a question of semantics and P.R. - but:
- it means the aircraft still retained at least 20% of its touchdown (ground) speed when it ran out of runway.
- "less that about 30 knots" equates to "less than about 35 mph" or "less than about 55 kph."
Not exactly slow.
The NTSB does report on EMAS overruns (cf. Mike Pence/737/LGA and the incident at Yeager/Charleston, WV), so I imagine we'll get good information on the critical possible little details that make the difference - extra speed for gusts, reverser lever jam, failed deployment of spoilers, reverted-rubber planing, etc.
- it means the aircraft still retained at least 20% of its touchdown (ground) speed when it ran out of runway.
- "less that about 30 knots" equates to "less than about 35 mph" or "less than about 55 kph."
Not exactly slow.
The NTSB does report on EMAS overruns (cf. Mike Pence/737/LGA and the incident at Yeager/Charleston, WV), so I imagine we'll get good information on the critical possible little details that make the difference - extra speed for gusts, reverser lever jam, failed deployment of spoilers, reverted-rubber planing, etc.
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
The NTSB does report on EMAS overruns (cf. Mike Pence/737/LGA and the incident at Yeager/Charleston, WV), so I imagine we'll get good information on the critical possible little details that make the difference - extra speed for gusts, reverser lever jam, failed deployment of spoilers, reverted-rubber planing, etc.
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Originally Posted by alf5071h
aterpster #60 ‘I would have either held or gone around.’
I have no problem with that view - as we sit in the sunshine and clear views of hindsight.
The lessons to be learnt will in the difference between our beliefs based on outcome, and the in-situation crew’s beliefs before the approach, and would we have performed any better.
I have no problem with that view - as we sit in the sunshine and clear views of hindsight.
The lessons to be learnt will in the difference between our beliefs based on outcome, and the in-situation crew’s beliefs before the approach, and would we have performed any better.
On a short runway I'd be minded to accept either heavy rain or a tailwind on limits but not both. That's stacking the odds too much.
Heavy rain implies the possibility of (perhaps locally) contaminated runway - a downwind landing on that is imo a rather risky call.
Heavy rain implies the possibility of (perhaps locally) contaminated runway - a downwind landing on that is imo a rather risky call.
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So if the performance data was OK, and you diverted where does that leave you ?
What could make a difference is local knowledge - does this runway feel like it actually meets the performance normally or not from past experience ?
What could make a difference is local knowledge - does this runway feel like it actually meets the performance normally or not from past experience ?
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Originally Posted by Meester proach
So if the performance data was OK, and you diverted where does that leave you ?
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Originally Posted by Meester proach
So if the performance data was OK, and you diverted where does that leave you ?
I view the landing distance numbers as limits, not goals.
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Tailwind is, somewhat, predictable. At least you can run the calculations with some extra knots and see where it leaves you.
Braking action is harder, you don't know what you gonna get until you try. Not sure about California runways but I remember California freeways being quite slippery after months of accumulated dirt followed by rain.
If the undershoot is flat you can duck under to get extra distance. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if you're close to the margain.....
Braking action is harder, you don't know what you gonna get until you try. Not sure about California runways but I remember California freeways being quite slippery after months of accumulated dirt followed by rain.
If the undershoot is flat you can duck under to get extra distance. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if you're close to the margain.....
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Originally Posted by alf5071h
aterpster, just to round this point off; ’similar situations’ are never the same 
In any case, holding until a red cells moves off the airport is using the "least cost of being wrong" operating philosophy, especially when the tailwind component is at its limit on a short (for jet transports) runway.
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Originally Posted by misd-agin
FMC PROG 2/4 shows the wind components - headwind, tailwind, crosswind. Good reference if you're at the limits and performance is tight.
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Originally Posted by 172_driver
If the undershoot is flat you can duck under to get extra distance. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if you're close to the margain.....
