Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

SWA 737 overrun at BUR - Dec 6 2018

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

SWA 737 overrun at BUR - Dec 6 2018

Old 10th Dec 2018, 13:31
  #61 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 476
Speed into the EMAS probably <30 kts

Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
“Rolled to a stop !”
Considering that the aircraft stopped half way between the end of the runway and the airport wall / road, that is a lot of energy which has been absorbed. Not a ‘slow speed’ excursion then.

In addition to ‘Lawyers can be found in the grass at the end of the runway’
add
The sound of EMAS crunching is like lawyers’ cash registers at full speed.’

Peter Lemme has updated his blog, citing a number of FAA references on overrun prevention as well as design criteria for construction and certification of EMAS:
https://www.satcom.guru/2018/12/stop...ance.html#more

Near the bottom of the page:
An approximate 110 foot excursion into the EMAS occurred. This suggest that the airplane was travelling less than about 30 kntos.
Zeffy is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 15:20
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 2,131
Thanks for the link Zeffy ; it presents a credible analysis.
There could be several quibbles in the details; based on the aircraft length the ‘estimated’ distance into EMAS is reasonable, as would be the speed. However the aircraft stopped ~> 50m beyond the threshold (thus faster at runway exit), and the attention getting safety point is that the wall is ~ 80m beyond the threshold - a distance margin equivalent of ‘third’ to ‘home base’ - so no sliding into ‘the wall’ !

The underlying point is that these types of incident should not occur, (the second EMAS at BUR) which indicates an accumulation of several contributing factors, perhaps something common to BUR.
safetypee is online now  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 15:36
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,873
Actually this incident is at least the third EMAS save at BUR, A-Rod's G-II in 2006 is missing from some of the lists:

A-Rod on Board Jet That Overruns Runway

The Associated Press

Saturday, October 14, 2006; 5:36 AM
BURBANK, Calif. -- A private jet, carrying Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez and six others, overran a runway at Bob Hope Airport on Friday and was brought to a halt by an arresting system. "I spoke to Alex. He's fine," agent Scott Boras said.
None of the seven people aboard were injured, federal officials said.The Gulfstream G-II carried five passengers and two crew members, the National Transportation Safety Board said in a statement from Washington, D.C. It departed from Las Vegas earlier in the day.The twin-engine jet was stopped by the Engineered Materials Arresting System, a 200-foot-long stretch of pavement injected with air bubbles designed to collapse under the weight of an aircraft as large as a Boeing 737 jet traveling as fast as 50 knots, airport spokesman Victor Gill said."It came to a pretty quick stop," Gill said.Damage to the aircraft was minor, the NTSB said.


A-Rod on Board Jet That Overruns Runway
Airbubba is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 15:48
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: An Island Province
Posts: 1,174
aterpster #60 ‘I would have either held or gone around.’
I have no problem with that view - as we sit in the sunshine and clear views of hindsight.

The lessons to be learnt will in the difference between our beliefs based on outcome, and the in-situation crew’s beliefs before the approach, and would we have performed any better.
alf5071h is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 16:02
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Chocolatetown
Age: 60
Posts: 83
Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
"... was stopped by the Engineered Materials Arresting System, a 200-foot-long stretch of pavement injected with air bubbles designed to collapse under the weight of an aircraft as large as a Boeing 737 jet traveling as fast as 50 knots."
Sounds like he MAY have been doing less than 50 knots? Beyond that it's anyone's guess on waaaay too many variables.
climber314 is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 16:03
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,069
"Rolled to a stop" and "crunched to a stop" is a question of semantics and P.R. - but:

- it means the aircraft still retained at least 20% of its touchdown (ground) speed when it ran out of runway.
- "less that about 30 knots" equates to "less than about 35 mph" or "less than about 55 kph."

Not exactly slow.

The NTSB does report on EMAS overruns (cf. Mike Pence/737/LGA and the incident at Yeager/Charleston, WV), so I imagine we'll get good information on the critical possible little details that make the difference - extra speed for gusts, reverser lever jam, failed deployment of spoilers, reverted-rubber planing, etc.
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 12:46
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,318
Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post

The NTSB does report on EMAS overruns (cf. Mike Pence/737/LGA and the incident at Yeager/Charleston, WV), so I imagine we'll get good information on the critical possible little details that make the difference - extra speed for gusts, reverser lever jam, failed deployment of spoilers, reverted-rubber planing, etc.
Where we get this good information from? I've read nothing that indicates an NTSB investigation of this overrun.
aterpster is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 12:47
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,318
Originally Posted by alf5071h View Post
aterpster #60 ‘I would have either held or gone around.’
I have no problem with that view - as we sit in the sunshine and clear views of hindsight.

The lessons to be learnt will in the difference between our beliefs based on outcome, and the in-situation crew’s beliefs before the approach, and would we have performed any better.
I had similar situations during my career and I did not make an approach under similar circumstances.
aterpster is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 15:08
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: An Island Province
Posts: 1,174
aterpster, just to round this point off; ’similar situations’ are never the same

Does FSF ALAR CAAG ring any bells ?
alf5071h is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 15:37
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 502
On a short runway I'd be minded to accept either heavy rain or a tailwind on limits but not both. That's stacking the odds too much.
Heavy rain implies the possibility of (perhaps locally) contaminated runway - a downwind landing on that is imo a rather risky call.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 16:09
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 0
So if the performance data was OK, and you diverted where does that leave you ?
What could make a difference is local knowledge - does this runway feel like it actually meets the performance normally or not from past experience ?
Meester proach is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 17:00
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,070
Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post
So if the performance data was OK, and you diverted where does that leave you ?
If the margin between LDA and LDR is tight, any sensible company would understand that a tailwind landing onto a short and wet runway wasn't the best idea.
FlyingStone is online now  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 17:09
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: farmm intersection, our ranch
Age: 54
Posts: 205
Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post
So if the performance data was OK, and you diverted where does that leave you ?
Somewhere else, not off the end.

I view the landing distance numbers as limits, not goals.
flyingchanges is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 17:22
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,102
Tailwind is, somewhat, predictable. At least you can run the calculations with some extra knots and see where it leaves you.

Braking action is harder, you don't know what you gonna get until you try. Not sure about California runways but I remember California freeways being quite slippery after months of accumulated dirt followed by rain.

If the undershoot is flat you can duck under to get extra distance. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if you're close to the margain.....

172_driver is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 17:34
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,318
Originally Posted by alf5071h View Post
aterpster, just to round this point off; ’similar situations’ are never the same
Sometimes, sufficiently similar to be a distinction without a difference.

In any case, holding until a red cells moves off the airport is using the "least cost of being wrong" operating philosophy, especially when the tailwind component is at its limit on a short (for jet transports) runway.
aterpster is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 18:43
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,207
FMC PROG 2/4 shows the wind components - headwind, tailwind, crosswind. Good reference if you're at the limits and performance is tight.
misd-agin is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 19:05
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by misd-agin View Post
FMC PROG 2/4 shows the wind components - headwind, tailwind, crosswind. Good reference if you're at the limits and performance is tight.
True for X miles away from the airport and Y thousands of feet up. Not at the runway, and (especially in a case like the one being considered) the difference is bound to be big, and variable.
Vessbot is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 19:48
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by 172_driver View Post
If the undershoot is flat you can duck under to get extra distance. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if you're close to the margain.....

"Not everyone's cup of tea" Really? If you try that one over on my side of the pond you'll find yourself in the Chief Pilot's office and there won't be any "cup of tea" (or any biscuits for that matter).
CHfour is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2018, 21:21
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Nz
Posts: 415
So if the performance data was OK, and you diverted where does that leave you ?
At home or in a hotel having a beer and planning my next holiday.
73qanda is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2018, 00:48
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,318
Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post

At home or in a hotel having a beer and planning my next holiday.
Perhaps even two beers and no hearing in my near future.
aterpster is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.