Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.
Fortissimo
Can't recall that one. Did you mean the TNT 737, or the Mahan A310 that attempted to land at Honiley? I can't recall UPS operating A300s, let alone operating from BHX in recent years.
The Birmingham UPS A300 accidents hit the ground a mile short even though the crew had seen the runway.
Earlier today a poster from Belgium commented about allowing single pilot ops in the London TMA. While there seems to be nothing in the history of this flight that relates to flight under London ATC control the mooted ideas about pilot overload in the final phases of approach leading to mis- judgements , well flying /holding/vectored/descent profiles/speed profiles etc on approach to Blackbushe (I think it is treated as Farnborough arrival initially) does make on wonder if that poster has appoint .
This was a fast slippery aircraft mixing it with numerous airliners in one of the worlds busiest and most complex airspaces and I know it is legal but is it wise?
PB
This was a fast slippery aircraft mixing it with numerous airliners in one of the worlds busiest and most complex airspaces and I know it is legal but is it wise?
PB
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
there is also a lack of reason for a pilot with all his faculties intact continuing an approach with the knowlage that the touchdown point would be that far down the runway
When I hear hoof beats I think horses, not zebras.
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There are a few here who appear to be hinting that SP IFR is positively dangerous. I think is important to put things in context and highlight that many of us operate SP IFR in very challenging environments (i.e. more so than a routine, well managed CAT role) and are not dying on a daily basis. Indeed, there are a number of very recent examples whereby two+ crew aircraft have made some equally disastrous CRM decisions.
My point? Let's not focus on SP other than recognising the threshold for capacity overload may be lower than a multi-crew environment; this doesn't make the role positively dangerous and CRM principles still apply. As for the Belgian chap questioning SP workload in the London TMA
My point? Let's not focus on SP other than recognising the threshold for capacity overload may be lower than a multi-crew environment; this doesn't make the role positively dangerous and CRM principles still apply. As for the Belgian chap questioning SP workload in the London TMA
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This was a fast slippery aircraft mixing it with numerous airliners in one of the worlds busiest and most complex airspaces and I know it is legal but is it wise?
And what has it to do with this accident ? The dude managed fine (from what is known up to now) and started (apparently) to lose it, when he needed to avoid an ultralight in the circuit (VFR! own separation, unlike IFR in London TMA)
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This must be the most nonsense post yet.
Reading the initial report from the AAIB and knowing the mindset of the type of pax onboard, there is a high probability the pilot was distracted by a passenger at the wrong moment which disturbed the plan, this of course will show up on the CVR. It still doesn't negate the fact he should have gone around.
It was a single pilot certified aircraft, therefore relatively easy to operate, the airspace is also one of easiest in the world to operate in single pilot you may also be very surprised how many single pilot aircraft operate in it.
debaets
You should not sent a single pilot in a business jet into the London area
You should not sent a single pilot in a business jet into the London area
Reading the initial report from the AAIB and knowing the mindset of the type of pax onboard, there is a high probability the pilot was distracted by a passenger at the wrong moment which disturbed the plan, this of course will show up on the CVR. It still doesn't negate the fact he should have gone around.
pax britanica
This was a fast slippery aircraft mixing it with numerous airliners in one of the worlds busiest and most complex airspaces and I know it is legal but is it wise?
This was a fast slippery aircraft mixing it with numerous airliners in one of the worlds busiest and most complex airspaces and I know it is legal but is it wise?
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 22nd Aug 2015 at 15:16.
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I was about to say.. The IFR portion of this flight was over, and only doing some VFR visual circuits remained to land. He had been there before, many hours etc..
One can only assume that all VFR flying is dangerous and anybut but ILS approaches from 25nm out should be banned.
Besides, flying a Jet with only two levers is easier than honking around a piston twin with its multiple colour-coded levers and astmatic performance...
Was anybody in the rhs? Passenger given the chance to land and went awry?
One can only assume that all VFR flying is dangerous and anybut but ILS approaches from 25nm out should be banned.
Besides, flying a Jet with only two levers is easier than honking around a piston twin with its multiple colour-coded levers and astmatic performance...
Was anybody in the rhs? Passenger given the chance to land and went awry?
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ATC did you know your handle abbreviated to that 
It is easier sometimes to fly single pilot than having a very low time FO with a basic SIC then you are watching or rectifying his actions all the time.
Where I agree is is that flying IFR in a jet like the Citation is easy. Infact a lot Easier than bashing around at 10 K in a piston twin through all the weather.
It is all fine while it is fine but the workload can increase dramatically when things start to go wrong and you are also being distracted by nervous PAX. In the jet you are travelling at more than twice the speed of a piston twin.
Having someone with some knowledge to run through the emergency checklists, take the radio, deal with frequency changes manuals charts etc all relieve some of the work load.
Really having a slow aircraft in the circuit is to be expected and does not account for this pilots crazy behaviour. He must of known he was way over VREF.
I have flown a jet into Blackbushe a number of times and as with any short runway your mind goes into alarm mode. You make sure you are right on the correct VREF and you put it down on the numbers no trying to get chairmans landings.
If the numbers are not right no question you throw it away and go around.
While accepting Single pilot in jets is safe for the vast majority of time we come to the final point and that is one heart at the controls.
I flew a Seneca Twin Single pilot to Malaga it was 45 degrees in Spain. Coming into San Sebastian I felt distinctly unwell and muzzy headed and could not think straight.
We landed and I explained to the owner that I was not well enough to continue to Malaga!
Something was wrong. He recognised dehydration and drinking loads of water was like an elixir of life. We continued to malaga.
Another time at 12K in the Seneca I fell asleep at the controls after a multi sector day. The drone of the engines were hypnotic. I got a dig in the ribs by the owner who thought I had died
A good friend flew single pilot in a fast turbine twin all his life resenting a second pilot as he was a loner.
the owning company insisted on two pilots for insurance requirements he reluctantly agreed and literally two weeks later passed out at the controls after a lifetime of safe flight.
He came too after the FO had landed in France and medics had attended him. He was suffering with severe food poisoning.
While accepting incidences of incapacitation are low in single pilot operations it depends what you call incapacitation?
I think other medical instances where the pilot is not operating to full capacity are far greater. We all know the pressures to fly with a head cold?
He was a 57 year old pilot so not a young stud. We do not know what medications he was taking for all sorts of ailments 57 year olds suffer with. His domestic personal life issues. He could have suffered a mini stroke or multitude of other things which would have affected his decision making.
He may have gone into overload and brain freeze?
I am not an exceptional pilot but I cannot imagine a situation where of right mind I would attempt such a suicide landing and i am still inclined to think that something effected his normal judgements
the tapes will be very revealing an autopsy probably impossible as they were all roasted to a crisp.
Pace
It is easier sometimes to fly single pilot than having a very low time FO with a basic SIC then you are watching or rectifying his actions all the time.
Where I agree is is that flying IFR in a jet like the Citation is easy. Infact a lot Easier than bashing around at 10 K in a piston twin through all the weather.
It is all fine while it is fine but the workload can increase dramatically when things start to go wrong and you are also being distracted by nervous PAX. In the jet you are travelling at more than twice the speed of a piston twin.
Having someone with some knowledge to run through the emergency checklists, take the radio, deal with frequency changes manuals charts etc all relieve some of the work load.
Really having a slow aircraft in the circuit is to be expected and does not account for this pilots crazy behaviour. He must of known he was way over VREF.
I have flown a jet into Blackbushe a number of times and as with any short runway your mind goes into alarm mode. You make sure you are right on the correct VREF and you put it down on the numbers no trying to get chairmans landings.
If the numbers are not right no question you throw it away and go around.
While accepting Single pilot in jets is safe for the vast majority of time we come to the final point and that is one heart at the controls.
I flew a Seneca Twin Single pilot to Malaga it was 45 degrees in Spain. Coming into San Sebastian I felt distinctly unwell and muzzy headed and could not think straight.
We landed and I explained to the owner that I was not well enough to continue to Malaga!
Something was wrong. He recognised dehydration and drinking loads of water was like an elixir of life. We continued to malaga.
Another time at 12K in the Seneca I fell asleep at the controls after a multi sector day. The drone of the engines were hypnotic. I got a dig in the ribs by the owner who thought I had died
A good friend flew single pilot in a fast turbine twin all his life resenting a second pilot as he was a loner.
the owning company insisted on two pilots for insurance requirements he reluctantly agreed and literally two weeks later passed out at the controls after a lifetime of safe flight.
He came too after the FO had landed in France and medics had attended him. He was suffering with severe food poisoning.
While accepting incidences of incapacitation are low in single pilot operations it depends what you call incapacitation?
I think other medical instances where the pilot is not operating to full capacity are far greater. We all know the pressures to fly with a head cold?
He was a 57 year old pilot so not a young stud. We do not know what medications he was taking for all sorts of ailments 57 year olds suffer with. His domestic personal life issues. He could have suffered a mini stroke or multitude of other things which would have affected his decision making.
He may have gone into overload and brain freeze?
I am not an exceptional pilot but I cannot imagine a situation where of right mind I would attempt such a suicide landing and i am still inclined to think that something effected his normal judgements
the tapes will be very revealing an autopsy probably impossible as they were all roasted to a crisp.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 9th Aug 2015 at 18:17.
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The Kidlington crash and this one. Some say no parallel and others suggest low houred CPL pilot mere sprog. Well the poor chap had to start somewhere, neverthless he held a professional licence, that`s what the CAA would call it, and allowed the poor fellow to try and scratch a living from it, hoping no doubt some day he would get his dream job of flying heavy metal.
The message in my posting is really in the last paragraph. I was prompted by Pace`s despair in trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, why oh why do those who can afford the best from mere pettycash, cut cost when their own lives may depend on it, politely of course. Comprehension is well beyond me I am afraid. Perhaps if there are any shrinks on the forum, they may care to enlighten us. On my part I have learned that more than wisdom, humility comes with age, when one has beaten the odds and never again would wish to be in the sharp end of an aircraft alone n`or at the rear end with one at the front alone. No amount of fancy electronics and gizzmos can replace another human with the basic instinct of survival.
The message in my posting is really in the last paragraph. I was prompted by Pace`s despair in trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, why oh why do those who can afford the best from mere pettycash, cut cost when their own lives may depend on it, politely of course. Comprehension is well beyond me I am afraid. Perhaps if there are any shrinks on the forum, they may care to enlighten us. On my part I have learned that more than wisdom, humility comes with age, when one has beaten the odds and never again would wish to be in the sharp end of an aircraft alone n`or at the rear end with one at the front alone. No amount of fancy electronics and gizzmos can replace another human with the basic instinct of survival.
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My homebase, a commercial airliner (Do328) crashed, fortunately no injured or dead...
http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publication...ublicationFile
Touched down late, beyond halfway down the rwy & crashed into an earth wall....
2 guys in the front office.
http://www.bfu-web.de/EN/Publication...ublicationFile
Touched down late, beyond halfway down the rwy & crashed into an earth wall....
2 guys in the front office.
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Chronus --
..... Agreed unless I am flying 
I have noticed over many years in this forum that many, many pilots resent a second pilot when the a/c and flight is licenced for one. I have noticed it very strongly in helicopter pilots. Why? Search me. I've always enjoyed the company of another pilot in the RHS in preference to a non-pilot.
On my part I have learned that more than wisdom, humility comes with age, when one has beaten the odds and never again would wish to be in the sharp end of an aircraft alone n`or at the rear end with one at the front alone.
I have noticed over many years in this forum that many, many pilots resent a second pilot when the a/c and flight is licenced for one. I have noticed it very strongly in helicopter pilots. Why? Search me. I've always enjoyed the company of another pilot in the RHS in preference to a non-pilot.
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@Chronus
If I may expand on my earlier comment above....as an engineer I should add though I know a few of these super rich types socially.
They seem to relish the game of getting something cheaper. They all seem very driven and I suppose getting something off confirms to them that that can still get a bargain/negotiate.
So they will shop for their basics online in Tesco - 'cos they are certainly jolly well not paying Waitrose/ocado prices for basics.
They rant about why the bathroom heating is on 24/7 due to a progammer miss-set when it does not need to be - and their houses or at least parts of them are always cold. Turning down the thermostat seems to be an obsession with them all....bl**dy power companies and their rip off prices etc.
Likewise a quote for doing something in the garden will be outrageous as they seek to bargain down the cost....which was the last rant I heard.
I tend to watch and wonder why they bother.......It seems that are constantly out to prove something.
While they are "super rich" I sometimes wonder whether they have less free cash than myself! All the wealth seems 'tied up' - its paper wealth rather than hard cash. We may think its all petty cash like buying another newspaper but I do wonder...
I've certainly seen one make a potentially very dangerous decision which worked out OK - but you sit there and ask - did it not cross their mind that this was not a good idea. (Other family members shared my horror I should add!) Perhaps, I speculate here, that their attitude to risk/reward is totally off balance - possibly because in their business life they have always won out - so as the saying goes "what could possibly go wrong" landing at Blackbushe with one pilot.
Of course explaining such risks is not going to make you popular - you are too negative - they don't do 'negative' people. I've been on the receiving end of this one.
You can imagine the conversation:
Farnborough wants WHAT to land there in charges - bl**dy money grubbing piles of dogsh**t - is there anywhere else we can land: whole sodding place needs a dose of real competition.
Two pilots - WFT is the other one doing - picking his nose? I don't need two chauffeurs to drive me two hours across the UK - so why do I need two to fly me from Italy.....you c8cks*cker are all trying to rip me off.
If I may expand on my earlier comment above....as an engineer I should add though I know a few of these super rich types socially.
They seem to relish the game of getting something cheaper. They all seem very driven and I suppose getting something off confirms to them that that can still get a bargain/negotiate.
So they will shop for their basics online in Tesco - 'cos they are certainly jolly well not paying Waitrose/ocado prices for basics.
They rant about why the bathroom heating is on 24/7 due to a progammer miss-set when it does not need to be - and their houses or at least parts of them are always cold. Turning down the thermostat seems to be an obsession with them all....bl**dy power companies and their rip off prices etc.
Likewise a quote for doing something in the garden will be outrageous as they seek to bargain down the cost....which was the last rant I heard.
I tend to watch and wonder why they bother.......It seems that are constantly out to prove something.
While they are "super rich" I sometimes wonder whether they have less free cash than myself! All the wealth seems 'tied up' - its paper wealth rather than hard cash. We may think its all petty cash like buying another newspaper but I do wonder...
I've certainly seen one make a potentially very dangerous decision which worked out OK - but you sit there and ask - did it not cross their mind that this was not a good idea. (Other family members shared my horror I should add!) Perhaps, I speculate here, that their attitude to risk/reward is totally off balance - possibly because in their business life they have always won out - so as the saying goes "what could possibly go wrong" landing at Blackbushe with one pilot.
Of course explaining such risks is not going to make you popular - you are too negative - they don't do 'negative' people. I've been on the receiving end of this one.
You can imagine the conversation:
Farnborough wants WHAT to land there in charges - bl**dy money grubbing piles of dogsh**t - is there anywhere else we can land: whole sodding place needs a dose of real competition.
Two pilots - WFT is the other one doing - picking his nose? I don't need two chauffeurs to drive me two hours across the UK - so why do I need two to fly me from Italy.....you c8cks*cker are all trying to rip me off.
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Next thing RyanAir or Easy jet will want a Single Pilot at the controls of an Airbus 320 now they are even easier to fly
Don't think many would be happy with that
Pace
Don't think many would be happy with that
Pace
@dudeness
Not sure what you meant there. I have crossed said airspace [Special] VFR routinely, no problem at all. In a light aircraft, not a bizjet, but same principle, surely.
If one would ask me to cross said airspace VFR, I'd ask him to go find another pilot
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Old Lurker
There is an element of truth there! Sometimes I will operate OCAS in a private jet low level especially if the IFR route is twice the distance on short routes
If you think about it a private jet does not need to fly at 250 KTS low level
You can fly at 160 KTS which is piston twin speeds
Also as a jet you will always get more ATC attention than joe Bloggs in a PA28
Pace
There is an element of truth there! Sometimes I will operate OCAS in a private jet low level especially if the IFR route is twice the distance on short routes
If you think about it a private jet does not need to fly at 250 KTS low level
You can fly at 160 KTS which is piston twin speeds
Also as a jet you will always get more ATC attention than joe Bloggs in a PA28
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 9th Aug 2015 at 22:21.
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It is quite clear that some people abovefail to understand that incapacitation can be quite subtle and as the result of a multitude of factors.
A few weeks back a co-worker was talking to me in a very logical way and less than two minuets later she fainted and could not walk unassited.
There are indications to the onset of this sort of incapacitation but the victim is always the last to know. Airline aproach callouts as well as challenge and responce monitoring during critical phases of flight are designed to alert crew members to subtle incapacitation.
Unfortunately this incapacitation monitoring is unavalable to single pilot operations.
A quick traul of the incapacitation numbers and you will find that it is not the major killers that result in most incapacitations, it is the humble food poisoning that stops most pilots from functioning fully.
A few weeks back a co-worker was talking to me in a very logical way and less than two minuets later she fainted and could not walk unassited.
There are indications to the onset of this sort of incapacitation but the victim is always the last to know. Airline aproach callouts as well as challenge and responce monitoring during critical phases of flight are designed to alert crew members to subtle incapacitation.
Unfortunately this incapacitation monitoring is unavalable to single pilot operations.
A quick traul of the incapacitation numbers and you will find that it is not the major killers that result in most incapacitations, it is the humble food poisoning that stops most pilots from functioning fully.
Reminds me of an incident at a company I worked at a few years back. A large passenger jet had an engine problem at top of climb and the end result was that it was not producing much if any thrust. Due to an inability to significantly descend because of traffic, the speed got slow and the stickshaker sounded. Thrust was added by the other crewmember and they survived.
The captain claimed that at the exact time that all this happened, he couldn't remember the event so he was incapacitated. Paid medical leave was given for a significant amount of time but of course, he was able to eventually pass the medical tests and get flying again.
What are the odds of both these things happening at the same time.
Last edited by JammedStab; 10th Aug 2015 at 02:22.
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Jammed Stab
Just look at the reality of what you are saying? If it was this experienced pilot landing and we are not 100% that he landed lets go through your scenario,
Accepting that he went high to clear slow traffic and then dived to regain the correct glide that would have resulted in him being far to fast.
He sails over the numbers with a VREF of 135 KTS not 108.
Having landed there many times he knows that the runway is limited but happily holds off bleeding off speed while the aircraft eats up the remaining runway.
With just 400 meters left he touches down and thinks he can stop?
Being of sound mind he would know that if he continued this landing he and his Pax would be dead.
As a sound minded experienced pilot he would be fully aware that his jet could not stop in 400 meters and was signing his own death warrant by attempting to do so.
There has to be more to this than is apparent it is the touch down point which is more relevent and concerning over his mental state than the too fast at the numbers
Had he flown it onto the numbers at 135KTS and as a cowboy gung-ho pilot tried to stop from that speed with the whole runway available OK i buy your theory but to land with 400 meters remaining ? NO that is not the actions of a sane pilot or who knows maybe he thought the hand of Bin Laden would reach from the skies and stop his jet in 400 meters ?
Pace
Just look at the reality of what you are saying? If it was this experienced pilot landing and we are not 100% that he landed lets go through your scenario,
Accepting that he went high to clear slow traffic and then dived to regain the correct glide that would have resulted in him being far to fast.
He sails over the numbers with a VREF of 135 KTS not 108.
Having landed there many times he knows that the runway is limited but happily holds off bleeding off speed while the aircraft eats up the remaining runway.
With just 400 meters left he touches down and thinks he can stop?
Being of sound mind he would know that if he continued this landing he and his Pax would be dead.
As a sound minded experienced pilot he would be fully aware that his jet could not stop in 400 meters and was signing his own death warrant by attempting to do so.
There has to be more to this than is apparent it is the touch down point which is more relevent and concerning over his mental state than the too fast at the numbers
Had he flown it onto the numbers at 135KTS and as a cowboy gung-ho pilot tried to stop from that speed with the whole runway available OK i buy your theory but to land with 400 meters remaining ? NO that is not the actions of a sane pilot or who knows maybe he thought the hand of Bin Laden would reach from the skies and stop his jet in 400 meters ?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 10th Aug 2015 at 07:49.
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There have been plenty of experienced pilots who have landed long & gone off the end. I suspect that there are many more who barely managed to stop in time. A lot of the time this is the culprit -
Continuation Bias - SKYbrary Aviation Safety
That is why airlines have strictly defined stable approach criteria & touchdown zone requirements & demand a go-around if outside these at defined points during the approach & landing.
The second crew member helps break the flying pilot out of any fixation manifested by continued operation outside of the required criteria by the use of defined exceedance calls & is enabled by the operating manual to take control if standard calls are not responded to & the flight path corrected or a go-around carried out.
Obviously this is missing in a single pilot operation, therefore requiring greater discipline & a stronger self critique process in these operations.
Continuation Bias - SKYbrary Aviation Safety
That is why airlines have strictly defined stable approach criteria & touchdown zone requirements & demand a go-around if outside these at defined points during the approach & landing.
The second crew member helps break the flying pilot out of any fixation manifested by continued operation outside of the required criteria by the use of defined exceedance calls & is enabled by the operating manual to take control if standard calls are not responded to & the flight path corrected or a go-around carried out.
Obviously this is missing in a single pilot operation, therefore requiring greater discipline & a stronger self critique process in these operations.
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According to AAIB, there were cumulative factors in the traffic pattern, a slow microlight in front, then a TCAS RA to descend due to another aircraft above, then a TAWS 'PULL UP' due to excess vertical speed; high airspeed on final, unstabilized final. But no go-around!
E55P, Blackbushe UK, 2015 (RE FIRE HF) - SKYbrary Aviation Safety
Any insight from someone familiar with Blackbushe? Is it normal to fly the pattern at 1000 Ft AGL in a jet or turboprop twin, at the same altitude as microlights and SEPs; or should it be flown at 1500 Ft. AGL like normally done elsewhere?
E55P, Blackbushe UK, 2015 (RE FIRE HF) - SKYbrary Aviation Safety
Any insight from someone familiar with Blackbushe? Is it normal to fly the pattern at 1000 Ft AGL in a jet or turboprop twin, at the same altitude as microlights and SEPs; or should it be flown at 1500 Ft. AGL like normally done elsewhere?