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Cargo Crash at Bagram

Old 1st May 2013, 00:31
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There is a rear pressure bulkhead, which provides basically no resistance from something going through it. There is also a small metal lip on the back of the main deck 747-400 floor near the pressure bulkhead.

Atlas had a 747 classic get written off because the rear pressure bulkhead was punctured by improperly packaged/loaded cargo.
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Old 1st May 2013, 00:55
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I think crash investigators have to experience worse things than a CVR- including body parts etc. So I would not be scared for them. Police etc see just as bad.

The crash is a classic stall on take off with unknown cause (as yet). Note a couple of things- the idea that the climb angle was the result of excessive enthusiasm in leaving the
MANPAD threat envelope is pretty silly. The pitch angle and airspeed bleed would have been terrifyingly obvious and would have totally occupied crew efforts.

Also note the left wing stalls first followed by a right hand roll. Whether the latter was due to a control input is not clear but as the aircraft descends and gains speed the crew
definitely have aileron authority and roll it level just before impact.

So clearly the crew had working aileron linkages and used them but (a) whether the elevator/HS link was disabled or (b) it was functional but ineffective due to a rear CofG will have to await investigation.

It's obvious that no professionally trained crew would allow their aircraft to get into
such a dangerous attitude and airspeed configuration unless something broke.

In other words, let's rule out the usual great finger pointed at pilot error.
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Old 1st May 2013, 01:10
  #83 (permalink)  
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aqua:

It is always hard to see fellow pilots die in the line of duty.
I sure hope that this video may help NTSB finding the causes for this accident. Until the last second I can only imagine them fighting against the odds...
But another thing calls my attention: have you noticed that the guy inside the car filming these dramatic events, never made a sound or even an exclamation during the whole process, except for quietening his dog? Odd, very odd.
Combat veteran military police I suspect. Men of steel and indifference.
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Old 1st May 2013, 01:11
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Journalist Request

Hi Alvin. I am a journalist at a news agency trying to verify dramatic video of this tragic accident. Can you please get in touch with me? Thanks, Félim [[email protected]]
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Old 1st May 2013, 01:14
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We took off out of SNA one day and could not rotate because the MD80 was loaded with non smokers in front. We forgot the gear on climb out trying to compensate for the bad trim setting. When things go south you sometimes worry about survival and forget about fundamental things like gear. We figured it out but were over 1,000 ft before we put the gear up. Maybe they had the same problem we did. Only in the opposite direction.
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Old 1st May 2013, 01:52
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aguadalte
But another thing calls my attention: have you noticed that the guy inside the car filming these dramatic events, never made a sound or even an exclamation during the whole process
'Cos the guy isn't 'filming' it... It's a dashcam that catches the crash...

I think I'd be quite speechless if I'd just seen a 744 plough-in
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Old 1st May 2013, 01:56
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Stall.

Incipient spin.

Recovering but not enough altitude.

Guy I knew years ago died in a Dak when load shifted on take-off. Straight up, straight down!!!

Last edited by White Knight; 1st May 2013 at 01:59.
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Old 1st May 2013, 02:37
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SLF with aviation interest and some image processing (though medical):
Did someone verify the origin of this video. I am wondering about three things:
1.) As someone pointetd out the driver barely makes a noise. I was sitting here watching these horrific images and was saying out loud my thoughts "Oh sh@#!".
2.) The date on the camera is wrong. Yes, could be not set properly but still.
3.) The noise heard from the outside is strange. I can hear the car driving but very little from a fully fueled 747 crashing on the ground.
4.) What is the driver doing after the crash, going a bit here and then there (maybe shock). Seems like a military vehicle (Antenna)?

I am just a bit more careful with ANY video you see these days on the web as a lot of stuff can be manipulated and take it with a grain of salt until confirmed authentic.
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Old 1st May 2013, 03:01
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Originally Posted by grimmrad
I was sitting here watching these horrific images and was saying out loud my thoughts "Oh sh@#!"
Yeah. You were watching the video. From a dash-mounted camera. The camera saw what the driver may not have been aware of; until the impact! Maybe the driver was concentrating on not driving into the vehicle in front and didn't see the incipient crash!

He does utter a few choice words shortly afterwards!

Originally Posted by grimmrad
The date on the camera is wrong. Yes, could be not set properly but still
But still. My GoPro Hero3 is about five weeks off the correct date. I still film with it every time I fly...

Originally Posted by grimmrad
The noise heard from the outside is strange. I can hear the car driving but very little from a fully fueled 747 crashing on the ground
It's a little dashcam thingy. Not a cinematic camera with microphone boom operators or special effects. A thump rather than a bang is most likely anyway!

Originally Posted by grimmrad
What is the driver doing after the crash, going a bit here and then there (maybe shock). Seems like a military vehicle (Antenna
I would imagine he would have been shocked. Yes......

Originally Posted by grimmrad
I am just a bit more careful with ANY video you see these days on the web as a lot of stuff can be manipulated and take it with a grain of salt until confirmed authentic
Gotta to say - sadly - that it looks very authentic. If you know how aeroplanes move at high AOA and high thrust from low slung engines for example.
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Old 1st May 2013, 03:10
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Names have been released.
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Old 1st May 2013, 03:34
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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There is one reaction of the driver of the driver which fits - right after impact he is going into reverse and back a bit. Anyhow, thanks to White Knight, I am not doubting it I am just used to question a lot of stuff on the web. Very sad.
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Old 1st May 2013, 03:51
  #92 (permalink)  
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Here's one for the conspiracy nuts who just posted.....

Are the dashcams calibrated for the proper date and if so, why does this say Feb 1st.....?
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Old 1st May 2013, 03:52
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Also note the left wing stalls first followed by a right hand roll.
In the you tube clip the aircraft is visible for longer as its not obscured by graphics.
Do you see the right wing drop a little first then the left then the right?
RAW FOOTAGE National Airlines 747-400 Plane Crash - Apr 29, 2013 - YouTube

Did someone verify the origin of this video. I am wondering about three things:
1.) As someone pointetd out the driver barely makes a noise. I was sitting here watching these horrific images and was saying out loud my thoughts "Oh sh@#!".
He acted like a cool customer, he stopped and reversed before the aircraft had crashed, that takes some degree of situational awareness and self control.


4.) What is the driver doing after the crash, going a bit here and then there (maybe shock). Seems like a military vehicle (Antenna)?
After stopping and reversing he repositioned closer and then appeared to block the road, perhaps as a traffic control measure.
He then may have tried to make a cell call.
Perhaps then he figured out the crash was still airside so traffic control not required, so went closer?
Perhaps dog is a pointer that he was a security officer, although lack of use of his radio or radio coming to life would be unusual?


2.) The date on the camera is wrong. Yes, could be not set properly but still.
If it were to be used as a record of a shift then the date is curious. The "time" may be hours and minutes since the camera was turned on.



3.) The noise heard from the outside is strange. I can hear the car driving but very little from a fully fueled 747 crashing on the ground.
Hard to judge how loud that would be and also the auto mic would be down fairly low to compensate for the engine and the high pitched interference. Sound of truck passing is also low level which matches the low level of the crash (downwind) in my view.


I am just a bit more careful with ANY video you see these days on the web as a lot of stuff can be manipulated and take it with a grain of salt until confirmed authentic.
Given the duration of the footage and that he travels closer to the crash it would be very very hard to fake. It also correlates with the eyewitness accounts.

Last edited by mickjoebill; 1st May 2013 at 04:12.
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Old 1st May 2013, 04:02
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Names have been released.
I hate to ask, but can someone please PM me with the names.
I just found out it's a company I used to work for, I may know some of the crew.
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Old 1st May 2013, 04:08
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Initial impressions from the video

Aside from the general "It is an ugly crash" feeling, I am noticing a bit of 'roughness' to the fuselage profile in the starboard lower lobe of the fuselage ahead of the tail. There is a lot of pixelation there, but it may also be an effect caused by a heavy vehicle or other cargo hitting that area and penetrating-probably when the starboard wing dropped to 90+ degrees of bank.

It appears that the humidity was fairly high and there appear to be faint vapor effects behind the aircraft including what appears to be a tight vortex behind the rudder just before initial ground contact.

As observed by others, the gear is down.


When the nose rises uncontrollably, the natural reaction is to fight it with all that you have to attempt to push it back down. Some aircraft I have flown had procedures to instead immediately drop a wing to prevent reaching a high nose up attitude when encountering an uncontrollable pitch up. Are such procedures used in the cargo community? Of course, this might not work well in an 'A' manufactured aircraft, but this was a 'B' with an entirely different control philosophy.
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Old 1st May 2013, 04:16
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Are you walking around in a daze? "Oh, I just remembered! I used to WORK for National Air Cargo! Oh, my!"
Obviously not. I used to work for Air Atlanta Icelandic and they hired out their crews and aeroplanes to other airlines. In my time with them I flew for something like 10 - 15 other airlines, so it was entirely possible that the crew of the American company 747 was in fact Icelandic.
But it turns out that even though AAI used to own that aeroplane, they probably sold it to National Air Cargo some time recently.
Condolences to the crew and their families.
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Old 1st May 2013, 05:10
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For those who worry what the families may feel seeing the video. From Av Herald
My husbands death
By Linda Garrett on Tuesday, Apr 30th 2013 23:14Z

My ex husband was a mechanic on this plane. I appreciate the person(s) who filmed the last few seconds of my husbands life. I and it makes me feel the raw pain and fear he must've felt in those last few seconds of his life. It is something I can keep for remembrance of his dedication and love for he job he worked at for 23 years. It was truly his first love. My life is forever changed by this lost, and now his daughters must grow up without his love and support. God speed and fly high my love, i'll see you some day soon......
Lest We Forget
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Old 1st May 2013, 06:08
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Do we know the original destination yet for the flight?
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Old 1st May 2013, 06:23
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According to company website it was bound for Dubai
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Old 1st May 2013, 07:22
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It's interesting how the mike in the humvee failed to pick up the sound of the impact/explosion.. it was loud, very VERY loud.. even from our vantage point approx mid-point on the 12000ft runway.
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