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Cargo Crash at Bagram

Old 1st May 2013, 16:19
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re my earlier post and pj2's where we mentioned the gear was down on impact so it seemed possible it never was retracted after lift off if the crew faced immediate problems

i have now watched the video on a very big TV and i think i can make out the nose wheel doors are open ? just before impact so maybe the gear was being lowered again as some pilots have mentioned on here as an attempt to use this during a stall recovery...although someone mentioned (hotdog?) you do not do this on this a/c type....

I'm not 100% sure though as video is fuzzy when increased...that's all....
perhaps someone else will see better than me.

Last edited by rog747; 1st May 2013 at 16:38.
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Old 1st May 2013, 16:30
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What happens with regard to accident investigation in this context? Is it more important that it was civil, or that it was in a military context presumably doing military transport work?
Considering the governing factors, i don't think this flight qualified as state aircraft under Art. 3 Chicago Convention.
It was a civil registered aircraft, operating under contract of carriage and there was no military personal aboard.

The accident investigation is thus governed by the Chicago Convention. Which means that the afghans have authority with the NTSB being merely observer.

This being Afghanistan of course, applying rule of (international) law is purely academic speaking.

Last edited by janeczku; 1st May 2013 at 16:33.
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Old 1st May 2013, 16:41
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Anyone who thinks that it would have made any difference whatsoever to the outcome of this catastrophe as to whether the gear was up or down is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The crew were confronted suddenly with an unflyable aeroplane.

In any event, all you MS experts out there should know by now that if hitting the ground becomes inevitable, it is always better to have the gear down than up. At least it will absorb some of the impact.

In this case, it was irrelevant.
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Old 1st May 2013, 16:46
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The aircraft was en-route to DXB but does anyone know where it had arrived from. The crew compliment suggests a heavy crew.
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Old 1st May 2013, 17:00
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Absolute ignorant here of all things military transport but assuming they were indeed moving those MRAPs how much actual space is there in the cargo hold for them to shift assuming a fully loaded aircraft ?
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Old 1st May 2013, 17:11
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atakacs, go back a few pages in this very thread. There are some explanations of how to load an MRAP on a cargo plane, a picture of one strapped down in an aircraft, how many one can fit into a 744, and some of the other issues involved.


strapped in

someone who shipped MRAPS in

Things that go wrong when loads shift

possible reactions to a cargo shift

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 1st May 2013 at 17:26.
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Old 1st May 2013, 17:29
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If the plane is very light, and thrust is high, the pitch will be high, around 16-19 degrees.
When I take off out of Bagram (in my B738):
On a relatively short flight (either back to Dubai or down to Kandahar).
With, say, 100 pax, and fuel being tankered (fuel in Bagram is cheaper than in Dubai... go figure?!).
Using full rated thrust (in order to, as fast as possible, put as much distance between me and any Taliban, i.e. a 'tactical' departure, as some might call it?!).

The acceleration down the runway can be breathtaking and the subsequent pitch angle required (i.e. to control the air speed within V2 to V2+15kts) is typically up to 25 nose up.

Just sayin'...
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Old 1st May 2013, 17:55
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Stand corrected

Mariner,

Your numbers right on. Flt time is little over 2 hours ( not the 7 hours I posted ) the fuel and payload guestimate seems nuts on. Thanks.
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Old 1st May 2013, 18:18
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The aircraft was en-route to DXB but does anyone know where it had arrived
from. The crew compliment suggests a heavy crew.
This may be a factor, from flightradar 24 the aircraft left CHR/LFLX at 15:50Z on Sunday 28th, I understand from other sites that it routed to an airbase in Afgan before flying to Bagram. The crash occurred at 11:00Z on Monday 29th. assuming there was no slip crew available in either of the Afgan locations and the crew joined in CHR/LFLX then at the time of the crash they had been on duty for some 19+ hours. I might be wrong on my assumptions and maybe a fresh crew did join in Bagram.
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Old 1st May 2013, 18:22
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WhyBy:

1. From that brief video clip, I don't see a spin in evidence. My own experience with spins is from smaller aircraft, which tend to go through stall, post stall gyration, and incipient spin stages (however brief) before entering a spin.

I freely admit to not being familiar with the characteristics of stall, post stall behavior, nor incipient spins in 747s. Some of the folks who did test flying back in the 60's or 70's may be able to explain that.

After reading GlueBall's post a page back, a possible explanation for what we see in that clip is that the second wing drop was an attempt by the flight crew to get the nose to drop (see below) and restore controlled flight ... we do see the wings returning to level before impact .. but they ran out of altitude for recovery.

I am sure there are other explanations.

From GlueBall:
The only life-saving technique in a significant cargo shift as such would be to roll into an IMMEDIATE bank, 30 to 40 degrees, whatever it takes to keep the nose from coming up beyond 18 degrees; maintaining configuration & power and accelerating in a continuous climbing turn with full forward stab and elevator. 250-280kts ...whatever speed and bank it takes to keep from stalling and to keep the nose down. When the nose is lowered, extra crew can go downstairs and push one or two pallets forward, or in case of vehicles, drive them forward.
FWIW
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Old 1st May 2013, 18:56
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The Vehicle driver

So, the driver, presumably military and on duty in a military vehicle, probably on patrol in or near a secure and no doubt very sensitive area, sees this and downloads his vehicles dashcam onto the internet within 48 hours of a major incident/accident. All from a combat area.

Where do the authorities sit with that?

I wouldnt like to be that man right now.
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Old 1st May 2013, 19:02
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UV:

Why assume the driver of the military vehicle is the one who downloaded the footage? After he returned to base I'm sure the contents of that camera were confiscated by persons higher up the pecking order than he. Anyone of whom could have done the same with the contents.
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Old 1st May 2013, 19:11
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Perhaps the driver was not the person who uploaded the video? Just a thought... (sorry, just refreshed the page and saw someone already suggested same)

Last edited by givemewings; 1st May 2013 at 19:12.
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Old 1st May 2013, 19:15
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The flight did come indeed from CHR, and it landed somewhere else in Afghanistan before landing in OAIX. In regards to National they fly heavy crew most of the time I believe. (even if it is a relative short day)
As far as flight time goes...I believe it is more in the 3.5 hr range (depending of wind), since a lot of airlines (especially one being US) can not fly through Iranian airspace. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 1st May 2013, 19:19
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Whilst I am fairly convinced by the load-shift explanation, I have in the back of my mind a DC8F crash caused by a rock/stone (?) jammed between the elevator/Stab during taxy-out control checks due "FOD" by the engines. On departure they could pull back, but not push forward. Judicious application of fwd trim might have saved the day, but time/altitude were in short supply.

Many possibilities here, even if I think it WILL be load-shift.


Edited to say, or was it a pax DC8 on a trooping contract ?

Last edited by captplaystation; 1st May 2013 at 19:21.
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Old 1st May 2013, 19:50
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If it was a case of load shifting how were the crew ever able to get the aircraft back on a level attitude, which it was at the time of impact?
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Old 1st May 2013, 19:56
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Was a there a report ever published on the loss of 747 N527MC ? Cargo shift there, the drivers fought 30 mns airborne and were lucky. Not found on NTSB.

http://www.pprune.org/freight-dogs/3...maged-lfw.html
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-2D7B N527MC Lome Airport (LFW)

Last edited by aerotransport.org; 1st May 2013 at 19:56.
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Old 1st May 2013, 20:02
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John Hill:

In a slip most of the drag comes from the vertical stabilizer. Hence the nose will drop.
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Old 1st May 2013, 20:04
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Thanks, that makes sense..
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Old 1st May 2013, 20:07
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John Hill:
how were the crew ever able to get the aircraft back on a level attitude, which it was at the time of impact?
Not withstanding any possible effects of control and / or thrust inputs buy the pilots... when the aircraft rolled (to the right) and then slid sideways out of the sky, it's possible (probable?) that the sweep of the downward going wing would most likely cause that wing to generate lift (remembering that it's a very big wing, with a lot of sweep) and which... referencing my copy of D.P.Davies 'Handling The Big Jets' (3rd edition)... is a phenomenon that's more properly known as 'an increase in the projected span'.
Conversely, the wing on the other side would generate no lift and therein the asymmetric lift between the two wings would cause the aircraft to roll (in this case to what just happened to be an almost level attitude prior to it impacting the ground).

Last edited by Old King Coal; 1st May 2013 at 20:22.
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