Airlaw, basic instruction "Hold short of.."
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Airlaw, basic instruction "Hold short of.."
Hi guys, just a topic of dicussion between some fellow aviators.
Heres the scenario...an A320 after landing, taxiing on a long taxiway and was instructed to hold short of an intersection because up ahead after the intersection there was another aircraft being pushbacked onto the same long taxiway. All 3 members of the crew, captain, first officer and second officer were visual with the other aircraft. Approaching the hold short line, the captain kept creeping towards the line, no callout by anyone until aircraft's NOSE went slightly passed the line, thats when the second officer called out "Captain we need to hold!", captain: "I know, i know okay?!" and stopped immediately. Once re-cleared, resume as per normal. After shut down, second officer asked the first officer, "what happened back there?, was my call out wrong? was i too nervous?", first officer said "Yeah, you should have just let it be, captain knows what hes doing, besides we are all visual with the aircraft ahead and there isn't any pottential hazzard or danger, and also, its NOT AGAINTS THE LAW TO HAVE THE NOSE AHEAD OF THE HOLDING LINE AS LONG AS THE NOSE WHEEL IS BEHIND THE LINE"...."ohk, my bad" second officer replied. Whats your take on this one guys? and was the first officers claims regarding the nose and nose wheel true?
Heres the scenario...an A320 after landing, taxiing on a long taxiway and was instructed to hold short of an intersection because up ahead after the intersection there was another aircraft being pushbacked onto the same long taxiway. All 3 members of the crew, captain, first officer and second officer were visual with the other aircraft. Approaching the hold short line, the captain kept creeping towards the line, no callout by anyone until aircraft's NOSE went slightly passed the line, thats when the second officer called out "Captain we need to hold!", captain: "I know, i know okay?!" and stopped immediately. Once re-cleared, resume as per normal. After shut down, second officer asked the first officer, "what happened back there?, was my call out wrong? was i too nervous?", first officer said "Yeah, you should have just let it be, captain knows what hes doing, besides we are all visual with the aircraft ahead and there isn't any pottential hazzard or danger, and also, its NOT AGAINTS THE LAW TO HAVE THE NOSE AHEAD OF THE HOLDING LINE AS LONG AS THE NOSE WHEEL IS BEHIND THE LINE"...."ohk, my bad" second officer replied. Whats your take on this one guys? and was the first officers claims regarding the nose and nose wheel true?
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I'm not a jet pilot (or any sort of pilot at the moment) but can't help feel the capt was wrong. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time that everyone was visual on the wrong aircraft. While all busy watching that one up ahead did they spot the one crossing from the left/right?
Callouts are never wrong. Any time ANY pilot is confused about what is happening, they should callout the confusion, so that it can be resolved.
How many times has that attitude led to an accident? Captain's are human, they get tired, they make errors - and nothing is better from an FO than saving you from making an error. I parked on the wrong stand just the other day (I am a multi-thousand hour Captain), and I wish the FO had said something before I turned in.
first officer said "Yeah, you should have just let it be, captain knows what hes doing
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"Callouts are never wrong." Absolutely. If in doubt, shout it out (or pull it out)
The "Hold Short" legalities vary from state to state. Japan expects you to be able to see the line you are holding short of, Australia expects the nose to be short of it.
IMO if it relates to LVO then you must be able to see the line as it often involves a stop bar.
The "Hold Short" legalities vary from state to state. Japan expects you to be able to see the line you are holding short of, Australia expects the nose to be short of it.
IMO if it relates to LVO then you must be able to see the line as it often involves a stop bar.
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It's my understanding that when given a hold short clearance that it pertains to the entire aircraft. You wouldn't let the first 2 or 3 meters of the airplane be across the hold short line at the approach end of the runway would you? As a Captain I never take offense to someone pointing out something that is clearly wrong.
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The alarms might not go off until the nose wheel crosses it, but in GA land I've been taught that no part of the aircraft should cross the line. Especially important when doing power checks into wind, when I might be sitting parallel to the line the wing shouldn't cross it.
Perhaps should think about the reason for the position of them. They are set to allow enough clearance for a certain sized aircraft (I know that Prestwick had to change their hold lines when preparing to accept a new type - possibly 747-8F) to pass safely and also to protect the ILS system for CAT landings.
There is going to be a small amount of contingency but not alot as space is always at a premium. The clearance will be measured from the centre line marker to the hold point.
If your nose is over the line, you are going to be vulnerable to getting it caught by someone else, and potentially you could even interfere with avionics of landing aircraft. Plus you wont be able to see whether the stop bars are illuminated (if the hold is so equipped).
From a CRM prospective - better to do the callout in my opinion. The captain may not have realised he was still inching forward.
Perhaps should think about the reason for the position of them. They are set to allow enough clearance for a certain sized aircraft (I know that Prestwick had to change their hold lines when preparing to accept a new type - possibly 747-8F) to pass safely and also to protect the ILS system for CAT landings.
There is going to be a small amount of contingency but not alot as space is always at a premium. The clearance will be measured from the centre line marker to the hold point.
If your nose is over the line, you are going to be vulnerable to getting it caught by someone else, and potentially you could even interfere with avionics of landing aircraft. Plus you wont be able to see whether the stop bars are illuminated (if the hold is so equipped).
From a CRM prospective - better to do the callout in my opinion. The captain may not have realised he was still inching forward.
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2 cents
What did the captain gain by inching forward over the line slightly? You made the correct call, it was a very black and white instruction by ATC, you shouldn't have been barked at, simple.
I hope it doesn't affect your judgement on such an issue in the future.
I hope it doesn't affect your judgement on such an issue in the future.
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Hi, I think the first officer proceeded exactly as per his job description. He made a safety call out. The captain was obviously going to miss the holdshort line. If Van Zanten's copilot had acted as this guy did, Tenerife would have probably been avoided.
A few years ago, I was taxiing out to a rwy and had been instructed to hold short. The twy rides parallel to the rwy as usual, and then it's a right turn at a 135 deg angle into the rwy. It was a night op. That airplane didn´t have taxi lt. I was looking for the hold short line a couple hundred feet ahead of the nose of the airplnae, when it was actually right in front of me. My first officer realized I was going to go right past it and very calmly said ¨alright here's the line". I applied brakes, ended up with a few meters of aluminium inside the line, but plenty of distance from the actual rwy, and said thank you.
Arrogance is an enemy of safe aviation. Don´t let any insecure captain(s) keep you from doing your job (and helping him keep his).
Rgds.
sw.
A few years ago, I was taxiing out to a rwy and had been instructed to hold short. The twy rides parallel to the rwy as usual, and then it's a right turn at a 135 deg angle into the rwy. It was a night op. That airplane didn´t have taxi lt. I was looking for the hold short line a couple hundred feet ahead of the nose of the airplnae, when it was actually right in front of me. My first officer realized I was going to go right past it and very calmly said ¨alright here's the line". I applied brakes, ended up with a few meters of aluminium inside the line, but plenty of distance from the actual rwy, and said thank you.
Arrogance is an enemy of safe aviation. Don´t let any insecure captain(s) keep you from doing your job (and helping him keep his).
Rgds.
sw.
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They were wrong. They knew they were wrong too - the Captain wouldn't have hit the brakes and stopped if he knew he was correct!
No part of the airplane can be past a hold short line. End of story.
No part of the airplane can be past a hold short line. End of story.
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My technique is to call out the hold short as we approach the line. That's a reminder to the Captain that we need to stop the plane.
"Approaching taxiway November, and we'll be holding short"
"Approaching taxiway November, and we'll be holding short"
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Thanks alot guys for the feedback and opinions, i learnt alot from this. I guess i was kind of nervous, especially when i saw that we were crossing the amber lights of the hold short line. Maybe my tone of voice used was abit too panicky, i should have been more calm and presented the call out in a more calm way. I could see that the captain wasn't too happy with me for that incident. However, i just didn't want anything bad to happen to us, like the ATC screwing us for going pass the line and if he was a prick wanting make a big deal out of it by submitting a report againts us. Ah, well...im still new and learning.
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Yes, you were correct in speaking up and you should in the future anytime you suspect something to be wrong. Many accidents have happened because a FO didn't speak up or do something. However, I wouldn't be afraid that you'd get in trouble. The Captain would be the one getting in trouble as he is the Pilot in Command. He is responsible for the control of the plane at all times.
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Good call! The line is a visual aide, it is not a suggestion, but an absolute, and no part of the aircraft may cross it. You cant see it if the nose is over the line...
Depending on where they set alarm, or the type of alarm (we used to use simple light beams, and as you know, were set to nose wheel, but now it is going to more of a scan beam that detects up to 10m)
Aside from that, what exactly do you gain by inching up to the last possible point?
Depending on where they set alarm, or the type of alarm (we used to use simple light beams, and as you know, were set to nose wheel, but now it is going to more of a scan beam that detects up to 10m)
Aside from that, what exactly do you gain by inching up to the last possible point?
Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 17th Jul 2012 at 23:44.
