Abort and Go-Round @ BHX 12.3.17
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I find it rather sad that some posters on this forum are so full of vitriol and bile that they feel an overwhelming urge to have a go at anybody who asks an innocent question on here.
The OP asked if anybody could shed any light on the incident. He/she didn't come up with any smart arse "end of the world/school misses disaster by millimetres" theories.
I assume at least some of the posters would be drivers, airframe and no doubt you are expert in pointing the machine in the correct direction, getting it there safely etc. A lot of them, sadly, are totally devoid of the very basic skills required in dealing with other people, particularly strangers, in a decent, well mannered way.
Personally, I find it a lot easier to give a stranger a bit of slack, at least until that stranger demonstrates he doesn't deserve it. Then the response may change.
It must be disappointing for a first time poster. Imagine this: OP has a genuine question over an incident which may have left him alarmed or perhaps just puzzled. OP thinks to himself "I know, I will ask those experts on Pprune, they are a knowledgeable lot and can probably provide an answer". And then, instead of a grown up answer, he gets the kind of crap we see above.
The OP asked if anybody could shed any light on the incident. He/she didn't come up with any smart arse "end of the world/school misses disaster by millimetres" theories.
I assume at least some of the posters would be drivers, airframe and no doubt you are expert in pointing the machine in the correct direction, getting it there safely etc. A lot of them, sadly, are totally devoid of the very basic skills required in dealing with other people, particularly strangers, in a decent, well mannered way.
Personally, I find it a lot easier to give a stranger a bit of slack, at least until that stranger demonstrates he doesn't deserve it. Then the response may change.
It must be disappointing for a first time poster. Imagine this: OP has a genuine question over an incident which may have left him alarmed or perhaps just puzzled. OP thinks to himself "I know, I will ask those experts on Pprune, they are a knowledgeable lot and can probably provide an answer". And then, instead of a grown up answer, he gets the kind of crap we see above.
Kelvin
Problem is Kelvin right at the start of this thread the Op said:
So he/she had the answer themselves, as was pointed out by DR in the next post, so why post in the first place?
I think many of us "drivers airframe" try to the decent thing and are pretty measured in our dealings with the travelling public but as I mentioned elsewhere this AM I think some of us are getting increasingly fed up being rung up at home by the management because you've done something legitimate but it's been queried on twitter and taken up by the national media, or the countless witterings, thanks to FR24 etc, about why the pilot did x, y, or z, was it legal, should they be reported, and if so who too? Try doing that with professionals in other lines of work and I suspect tempers would start to get short there as well ... Can you imagine a site such as "PDoctor" and imagine the response you'd get if you went on line and demanded to know why your op scar isn't perfectly straight and then demand to see a report about it.....
Most people I fly with do a good honest job on the PA, but given pressure of time it's often as not possible to give an "Aircrash Investigation" breakdown into your go-around. The real question should be why do people think the flight crew are B.S. ing about the likes of a go around and bang on about needing to know "what really happened", "need to see the official report"?
To some absolutely everything is a conspiracy - frankly it's getting tedious.
The OP asked if anybody could shed any light on the incident.
Captain told passengers there was an aircraft on the runway.
I think many of us "drivers airframe" try to the decent thing and are pretty measured in our dealings with the travelling public but as I mentioned elsewhere this AM I think some of us are getting increasingly fed up being rung up at home by the management because you've done something legitimate but it's been queried on twitter and taken up by the national media, or the countless witterings, thanks to FR24 etc, about why the pilot did x, y, or z, was it legal, should they be reported, and if so who too? Try doing that with professionals in other lines of work and I suspect tempers would start to get short there as well ... Can you imagine a site such as "PDoctor" and imagine the response you'd get if you went on line and demanded to know why your op scar isn't perfectly straight and then demand to see a report about it.....
Most people I fly with do a good honest job on the PA, but given pressure of time it's often as not possible to give an "Aircrash Investigation" breakdown into your go-around. The real question should be why do people think the flight crew are B.S. ing about the likes of a go around and bang on about needing to know "what really happened", "need to see the official report"?
To some absolutely everything is a conspiracy - frankly it's getting tedious.
Last edited by wiggy; 15th Mar 2017 at 09:40.
Thanks Johnny
Whilst I'm in the mood is it also worth making the points that:
1. On shorthaul go-arounds are not that uncommon, a big deal perhaps for the passengers, but the Flight Crew involved have probably already forgotten the details.
2; Reports on go-arounds don't tend to be "War and Peace", they will probably say no more than: " Previous aircraft slow to take-off/clear, go-around flown"
3. if pprune starts to handle questions about every go-around they are going to need bigger servers..
Whilst I'm in the mood is it also worth making the points that:
1. On shorthaul go-arounds are not that uncommon, a big deal perhaps for the passengers, but the Flight Crew involved have probably already forgotten the details.
2; Reports on go-arounds don't tend to be "War and Peace", they will probably say no more than: " Previous aircraft slow to take-off/clear, go-around flown"
3. if pprune starts to handle questions about every go-around they are going to need bigger servers..
I find it rather sad that some posters on this forum are so full of vitriol and bile that they feel an overwhelming urge to have a go at anybody who asks an innocent question on here
As stated the OP possibly answered his own question, however there will always those that want to 'chip in' in some shape or form. That's aviation for you.
Wiggy, so bloody true. What's worse is that that it's unlikely to change! 
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crewmeal, wiggy: Points well made and well taken. I understand the nutters out there winding you up and the increasing conspiracy crap.
My raising the point initially was not to join in with the chirping; it was merely my reaction to the way some posters responded to the original query. I have no doubt my reaction was probably coloured by having spent an hour reading some of the other stuff in, for example, the Jet Blast thread. And that would help explain my describing some of the sarcasm as vitriol.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers here, when I should perhaps have reserved my ire for the other thread!
My raising the point initially was not to join in with the chirping; it was merely my reaction to the way some posters responded to the original query. I have no doubt my reaction was probably coloured by having spent an hour reading some of the other stuff in, for example, the Jet Blast thread. And that would help explain my describing some of the sarcasm as vitriol.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers here, when I should perhaps have reserved my ire for the other thread!
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I'm afraid i found some of the responses to a simple question were plain rude.
I rather got the impression of the writers gleefully snorting as they put 'the noob' in his place.
The explanations of too many people asking boneheaded questions which stir up trouble doesn't hold water either.
The OP asked his question in the Spotters forum. He didnt enter the hallowed ground of any of the professional pages.
Get over yourselves.
I rather got the impression of the writers gleefully snorting as they put 'the noob' in his place.
The explanations of too many people asking boneheaded questions which stir up trouble doesn't hold water either.
The OP asked his question in the Spotters forum. He didnt enter the hallowed ground of any of the professional pages.
Get over yourselves.
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I think you missed a key point though Tashengurt. The OP answered his own question! If the Captain said there was an aircraft still on the runway then that's what it was. What more did the OP need to know? It is after all a relatively common enough occurrence.
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In the interest of answering the OP's OQ, and with the disclaimer that I don't work at Brum and have no knowledge of the go-around in question:
As has been pointed out by several others, it sounds like a go-around was initiated due to an aircraft on the runway. Generally that's either a) a previous lander which is slow to vacate, or b) a departure which is slow (or unable) to take-off in sufficient time ahead. Sometimes b) is caused by a), but there can be a number of reasons for it and all airports will see tens or hundreds of go-arounds per year.
The point to consider is that if there is anything at all which prevents an aircraft making a safe landing, the only safe option is to go-around. This might be due other traffic (as above), or an indication of an aircraft problem, or a warning of windshear, or the aircraft being slightly too high or fast...the list goes on. In some cases this throws up its own challenges, such as when a go-around follows close behind a departure, however there will be local procedures, training and a wealth of experience to ensure that the situation is resolved rapidly and safely. If you were indeed at 50' when you went around, that would be within the airfield boundary and over the runway, which is certainly late but not very unusual. It's possible for a go-around to be initiated at such a late stage that the aircraft touches down before climbing again. Again, not terribly common but it happens from time to time.
Regarding the local villages etc - if you're genuinely concerned (and I'm sure you are, and not one of the journalists who write too much wilful and dishonest sensationalism), pick any other medium to large size airport and look at the surrounding housing areas. Without trying to sound dismissive, we throughout the industry work damn hard at ensuring high, high levels of aircraft safety. That is regardless of what's underneath the aircraft at the time, be it empty fields or bustling cities.
As has been pointed out by several others, it sounds like a go-around was initiated due to an aircraft on the runway. Generally that's either a) a previous lander which is slow to vacate, or b) a departure which is slow (or unable) to take-off in sufficient time ahead. Sometimes b) is caused by a), but there can be a number of reasons for it and all airports will see tens or hundreds of go-arounds per year.
The point to consider is that if there is anything at all which prevents an aircraft making a safe landing, the only safe option is to go-around. This might be due other traffic (as above), or an indication of an aircraft problem, or a warning of windshear, or the aircraft being slightly too high or fast...the list goes on. In some cases this throws up its own challenges, such as when a go-around follows close behind a departure, however there will be local procedures, training and a wealth of experience to ensure that the situation is resolved rapidly and safely. If you were indeed at 50' when you went around, that would be within the airfield boundary and over the runway, which is certainly late but not very unusual. It's possible for a go-around to be initiated at such a late stage that the aircraft touches down before climbing again. Again, not terribly common but it happens from time to time.
Regarding the local villages etc - if you're genuinely concerned (and I'm sure you are, and not one of the journalists who write too much wilful and dishonest sensationalism), pick any other medium to large size airport and look at the surrounding housing areas. Without trying to sound dismissive, we throughout the industry work damn hard at ensuring high, high levels of aircraft safety. That is regardless of what's underneath the aircraft at the time, be it empty fields or bustling cities.
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I think you missed a key point though
My point is that it reeks of elitism when people prowl forums which are clearly not exclusively aimed at professionals (and probably exist to discourage amateurs from those pages) and then leap on questions with faux outrage at their naivety.
I have not seen many go-arounds at Brum. The atcos seem to use quite big gaps as there are no RETs and aircraft have to exit the runway quite slowly as a number of the perpendicular turn offs also have marked down hill gradients. An A320 last year left the paved surface after trying to make a turn at too high a speed.
The last go around I saw was because the surface movement radar has detected an animal crossing the touchdown zone of 15!
The last go around I saw was because the surface movement radar has detected an animal crossing the touchdown zone of 15!
Tashengurt
The OP did answer his/her own question....he did say he/she was given an entirely sensible reason the via PA captain, so like many here I am struggling a bit TBH about why the question is asked in the first place..
The subsequent grumbles here aren't really to do with elitism, it's the grumble that having spent our working days under the spotlight (e.g. data recorders scanned for infringements every flight, ) now we seems it is demanded of us to provide forensic analysis of every twist or turn in a fairly routine flight.
Anyhow...lets turn this around, Tashengurt : what are you expecting to be told during or just post a go-around that will reasure you?
As a starter I'll try and explain very briefly the context.........
Imagine "you are the pilot"......you get down to X feet and the aircraft ahead of you is slow in clearing the run way, so you do a "bog standard" go-around.....
Now actually a "bog Standard" go -around can be quite busy, not just the handling ( e.g. making sure the power is applied, gear/flaps are retracted in the proper sequence, coordination with ATC via the radio, perhaps making a quick fuel plan/decision, setting up for a second approach, etc ....and somewhere in the process the company like you to fit in a brief PA to reassure the passengers. Given workload and above all safety it probably will be brief but honest....as in:
" We were not able to land because the aircraft ahead of us was slow to get airborne/off the runway/ crosswinds out of limits etc....we will make another approach and should be landing in ten minutes.." That really is all there is probably safely time for and even that probably bores the pants off many passengers..
You are simply not going to get a " we got down to 112 feet, the aircraft ahead of us, XYZ 123 was only doing 40 knots and was still short of exit Tango 4 so we selected TOGA, blah blah........I'll give you all an even fuller debrief on landing..." Thta's not due to hding anything, there simply isn't the time, or I suspect, for many the interest.
Moving on you then do your second approach..you land....passengers generally don't want any more PA's and they troop off, paperwork starts on the flightdeck...amongst which this seemingly mythical report many seem to want to read, which reality will probably mirror the captn's PA, as in "aircraft ahead.....", probably one line of A4. It will be read by someone at head office, the flight recorder traces are scanned ( as they always are for for all flights ), and chances are that that is the end of it. Crew go home or do a quick turn for the next sector and the go-around gets pretty much forgotten.
Well the OP wasn't going to get an answer from a non professsional....and I honestly think most of the pros do try and help, but they have their patience..or would you rather this area was kept spotters only, in which case please can the pros can have the rest of the forum back?
TBH if you think that people here are elitist how many other professions ( financial, medical, legal) have similar forums to this one, ones which allow non professionals to dive in and ask (sadly these days seemingly increasingly demand) that a professional explains in detail what they were doing on a particular day or time, I think we are generally pretty good here, but the "respect" thing does work both ways.
The OP didn't answer his own question he stated what the Captains reason for the go-around had been which wasn't an explanation was it? As many have been keen to point out there can be numerous reasons for another aircraft to be on the runway and most are fairly routine but as a fellow go-around survivor (I haven't written my book yet) I can confirm that to someone unfamiliar with air operations the sudden change from gentle descent to unexpected acceleration can raise an eyebrow.
The subsequent grumbles here aren't really to do with elitism, it's the grumble that having spent our working days under the spotlight (e.g. data recorders scanned for infringements every flight, ) now we seems it is demanded of us to provide forensic analysis of every twist or turn in a fairly routine flight.
Anyhow...lets turn this around, Tashengurt : what are you expecting to be told during or just post a go-around that will reasure you?
As a starter I'll try and explain very briefly the context.........
Imagine "you are the pilot"......you get down to X feet and the aircraft ahead of you is slow in clearing the run way, so you do a "bog standard" go-around.....
Now actually a "bog Standard" go -around can be quite busy, not just the handling ( e.g. making sure the power is applied, gear/flaps are retracted in the proper sequence, coordination with ATC via the radio, perhaps making a quick fuel plan/decision, setting up for a second approach, etc ....and somewhere in the process the company like you to fit in a brief PA to reassure the passengers. Given workload and above all safety it probably will be brief but honest....as in:
" We were not able to land because the aircraft ahead of us was slow to get airborne/off the runway/ crosswinds out of limits etc....we will make another approach and should be landing in ten minutes.." That really is all there is probably safely time for and even that probably bores the pants off many passengers..
You are simply not going to get a " we got down to 112 feet, the aircraft ahead of us, XYZ 123 was only doing 40 knots and was still short of exit Tango 4 so we selected TOGA, blah blah........I'll give you all an even fuller debrief on landing..." Thta's not due to hding anything, there simply isn't the time, or I suspect, for many the interest.
Moving on you then do your second approach..you land....passengers generally don't want any more PA's and they troop off, paperwork starts on the flightdeck...amongst which this seemingly mythical report many seem to want to read, which reality will probably mirror the captn's PA, as in "aircraft ahead.....", probably one line of A4. It will be read by someone at head office, the flight recorder traces are scanned ( as they always are for for all flights ), and chances are that that is the end of it. Crew go home or do a quick turn for the next sector and the go-around gets pretty much forgotten.
My point is that it reeks of elitism when people prowl forums which are clearly not exclusively aimed at professionals
TBH if you think that people here are elitist how many other professions ( financial, medical, legal) have similar forums to this one, ones which allow non professionals to dive in and ask (sadly these days seemingly increasingly demand) that a professional explains in detail what they were doing on a particular day or time, I think we are generally pretty good here, but the "respect" thing does work both ways.
Last edited by wiggy; 16th Mar 2017 at 10:55.
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Does someone asking "what happened there?" On a spotters forum really constitute forensic analysis?
What do I expect from the Captain? Not a lot really same as i wouldn't expect a running commentary from a bus driver but I still say that giving a reason isnt the same as an explanation and the OP just asked a benign question on an open forum only to be flamed (mildly singed anyway) for it.
Still. I'm sure they can hold their own.
What do I expect from the Captain? Not a lot really same as i wouldn't expect a running commentary from a bus driver but I still say that giving a reason isnt the same as an explanation and the OP just asked a benign question on an open forum only to be flamed (mildly singed anyway) for it.
Still. I'm sure they can hold their own.
"What do I expect from the Captain"
You have maybe 20 seconds or less to get a reassuring PA out whilst perhaps listening to ATC through a spare ear in the middle of a sequence of events you weren't planning on, and also watching what your colleague is doing....you have no script ( though I suspect some of us have learnt over the years to have a vague format) and you have to be very carefull not to confuse or frighten people. ( FWIW words like "close" and " abort" can frighten the pants off some nervous flyers, many people won't know what a "go-around" or "ATC" is).
What would you say? (give it a try, it's an interesting exercise).
Fair enough, but TBH unless he/she lucks in and one of the crew drop in here he was always unlikely to get an answer better than the one he was given in flight....I'm not sure else he can expect.
You have maybe 20 seconds or less to get a reassuring PA out whilst perhaps listening to ATC through a spare ear in the middle of a sequence of events you weren't planning on, and also watching what your colleague is doing....you have no script ( though I suspect some of us have learnt over the years to have a vague format) and you have to be very carefull not to confuse or frighten people. ( FWIW words like "close" and " abort" can frighten the pants off some nervous flyers, many people won't know what a "go-around" or "ATC" is).
What would you say? (give it a try, it's an interesting exercise).
the OP just asked a benign question on an open forum only to be flamed (mildly singed anyway) for it.
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Wiggy, Im perplexed. No one's suggesting the crew should have provided an explanation. 'Please feel free to worry about flying the aircraft,' That's probably why the OP asked here rather than storming the cockpit.
He asked on a spotters forum. Spotters hang around airports, listen to ATC traffic, report movements. Its not unreasonable to ask is it?
And you can't have it both ways. Criticise a question for its lack of insight but then expect them to know just how much trouble seemingly innocent questions can cause.
Frankly if you are a professional hanging around a spotters forum you probably need to expect the odd question that makes you slap your forhead without reaching for your heart meds.
He asked on a spotters forum. Spotters hang around airports, listen to ATC traffic, report movements. Its not unreasonable to ask is it?
And you can't have it both ways. Criticise a question for its lack of insight but then expect them to know just how much trouble seemingly innocent questions can cause.
Frankly if you are a professional hanging around a spotters forum you probably need to expect the odd question that makes you slap your forhead without reaching for your heart meds.
Wiggy
As a regular passenger I think that the pilot should give an apology and detailed explanation of what happened as soon as possible and also make himself or herself available for media interviews in the jetway after landing . In fact nowadays with FR 24, spotters equipped with 1990s spy quality cameras and Airport CCTV there should be a panel of experts who critique the landing on the TV news that night and comment on whether it was the fault of the pilot or the tower. And of course the video can be streamed globally on YouTube for further comment .
Coming back to reality , I was quite surprised when reading another thread on go arounds that i have experienced rather more than even many crew members have but hats just a coincidence I am sure. Speaking as passenger I have always appreciated a quick word from the flight deck but only ata point when all is stabler again and headign back for another approach because I think it scares some people who are nervous flyers anyway. i think a lot of others are surprised at how effortlessly (I know there is a lot to do up front but I am talking about the aircraft here) a really large aircraft can climb away from these situations. I certainly do not expect anything more than - we have to make another approach the runaway wasnt clear or something very basic and non alarming (unlike a KLM 737 captain some years back after we went around on a very very bumpy approach to AMS . Who said 'that was very rough wasn't it-too rough for us so we will try again' but then the Dutch are plain speakers
As a regular passenger I think that the pilot should give an apology and detailed explanation of what happened as soon as possible and also make himself or herself available for media interviews in the jetway after landing . In fact nowadays with FR 24, spotters equipped with 1990s spy quality cameras and Airport CCTV there should be a panel of experts who critique the landing on the TV news that night and comment on whether it was the fault of the pilot or the tower. And of course the video can be streamed globally on YouTube for further comment .
Coming back to reality , I was quite surprised when reading another thread on go arounds that i have experienced rather more than even many crew members have but hats just a coincidence I am sure. Speaking as passenger I have always appreciated a quick word from the flight deck but only ata point when all is stabler again and headign back for another approach because I think it scares some people who are nervous flyers anyway. i think a lot of others are surprised at how effortlessly (I know there is a lot to do up front but I am talking about the aircraft here) a really large aircraft can climb away from these situations. I certainly do not expect anything more than - we have to make another approach the runaway wasnt clear or something very basic and non alarming (unlike a KLM 737 captain some years back after we went around on a very very bumpy approach to AMS . Who said 'that was very rough wasn't it-too rough for us so we will try again' but then the Dutch are plain speakers
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Never mind the Dutch captain, how about an Aussie driving our Gulf Air Tristar back in the 80s? The flight from Bahrain was nipping into Paris en route to Heathrow.and the weather was atrocious. After a second missed approach, the pilot came on the PA to announce "We shall try it one more time. If we make it, I will be talking to you again once we are on the ground". Words that stuck with me for years "If we make it"!
Frankly if you are a professional hanging around a spotters forum you probably need to expect the odd question that makes you slap your forhead without reaching for your heart meds.
Problem is when does the third degree stop? Over the years it's been endless questions about 7700 codes ( actually quite tasteless since it's usually some poor sod having a heart attack), "odd" Atlantic routings on Flight Radar ("who do I report this too" - nobody, it's a "random track...." yes but I feel I really must report this..
..), and no doubt there are other examples; I've even being Monday morning quarterbacked in flight about flying too fast (they were wrong) in the cruise by a "not a pilot, but I know about flying" individual.... It does increasingly feels as Pax b jokingly described in his first paragraph. Anyhow on the specific point of this thread here are hundreds if not thousands of normal go arounds flown every day around the world, and I suspect most times an explanation of some sort will be offered by those at the front end. If the spotters start demanding a detailed explanation for every one, regardless of what was said on board, we are going to end up with a very cluttered forum.
Anyhow, e'nuff from me....
Last edited by wiggy; 16th Mar 2017 at 16:32.
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This one at BHX https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ahd9A_0Xxk could be a Go-around too ! Are they close to each other ?