Korean Air for expats

[KAL__Aviator]

That's right, they had just helped those undetermined to make up their minds. Droves are coming to China, CSA is really desperate for drivers now.

[helimutt]

wonder if this ties in with the recent accident in usa

[Keylime]

I can't believe with all of the information that has been posted here the last 5-6 years about KAL that people still go there. The only reason to go there is if you don't have any other prospects. As a Captain you are, for the most part, single piloted most of the time. When you get into Western airspace where English is the native language the majority of first officers CANNOT handle the radios. They cannot fly an approach with any crosswinds or without an ILS glideslope. Even though it is against SOP's(as defined in the FOM) to fly and handle ATC communications, many times it is safer than trying to correct the constant communication mistakes by the Korean pilot monitoring who is supposedly ICAO Level 4 or better. IF KAL and Asiana had an HONEST language testing system less than 40% of the Korean pilots would pass the minimum required language testing. I have witnessed Korean F/O's talk to ATC and then translate the instructions to the Korean Captain in Hangul. Any foreigner who has flown over there is not surprised by the Asiana accident. The only surprise is that it did not happen sooner. Could just as easily have been KAL as Asiana.

[4Banger]

744 FO

I have a class date scheduled with KAL as an FO on the 744. After reading this thread, I must admit that I am very anxious about going. I have heard that experiences as an FO can be quite horrific, but I have also heard about those who's experiences were more than pleasant.

People will ask me why I am even considering going after reading this thread. The answer is, quite honestly, because I have nowhere else to go. I am not marketable to other airlines that pay a decent salary.

People will tell me that I will be treated unfairly, ridiculed, and all but spat on by the Korean nationals. My response would be that I'm not too worried about that. I have flown with difficult Captains, I have a wife that can sometimes be a little irrationally demanding, and I was enlisted in a pretty tough branch of the military. I've got some thick skin and I am very familiar with the concept behind the term, "cooperate and graduate".

I have heard a lot about the 777 on this thread. I would really like for someone to chime in about the 744 training process. How are the instructors on that side of the house? What are some things that I need to look out for as an FO? I know that there are quite a few negative experiences out there, but if someone has something positive to say, it would definitely help out.

Thanks

[KAL__Aviator]

4Banger

You'll do fine with your mindset and background. Don't bother worry too much, plus, you're not their target.

Cut all the negatives and make do what you can, I'm sure you know the rules.

[SRS]

You will do fine 4 Banger. Attitude is the most important asset in Korean. When you start flying life can be pleasent and your commute is the best in the expat business.

Good luck

[cediazf]

4 Banger. As the pilot who started this thread, I did it with the main intention to warn those who were required to pay for their type to be admitted and also for others like you to know a little more on what to expect. Unfortunately I found out too late that they don't care on the sacrifice and effort some of us made to be there. It would have been easier and cheaper for them to give me 2 extra OE flights than just dismissing me especially when my record was virtually clean but I supposse it was not meant to be for me. I am still trying to get over it and I eventually will. I was recently hired as a Captain in another airline and things are finally moving forward for me. Having said that, the 747 fleet was one of the best training wise when I was there. The training stories were quite different than the ones from the 330 or the 777. If you are typed on the airplane I am not going to tell you that the training will be all pleasant but you will be in the least troubled fleet if things have not changed. If they have let's hope it's for the best. So, go for it, prepare yourself as much as you can once you are there. Don't sweat it too much right now. Like I said before, once you pass, life is good there and not everyone is bad, like everywhere else there are nice and not so nice guys. They have some really nice people too as you will realize. Also when you go with the type OE is shorter. Go with a positive mind. Best of luck.

[54fighting]

Cediazf,

Thank God you finally got a job. Where at ?
Getting tired with your sad tale. Before your record was perfect. Then it
was missing a parking spot, missing callouts, struggling with the standard
landing briefing.
Now it's your "virtually clean" record, and you should have received 2 extra
OE legs.
How about you piss off, and concentrate on your new job.
Hope the briefings are brief.

[cediazf]

54fighting. If you are tired of what I write here there is an easy solution; don't read it. And yes, where I am now the briefings are long when they need to be and short when they don't with no nonsense. I will leave your unsensitive soul wondering where at. You already speak like them, as if you and them are perfect. Glad did not get to meet you either. Enjoy the Kimchi.

[proud]

Cediazf,
I have read all of your posts regarding KAL and want to say thank you. I found them honest and well written. I am happy that you found a job and I am sure you will add value to the company you are now with. I was about to send my application to KAL for the non type rated B777 but you have given me a lot to consider and I think that was the intent of your posts all along-so thank you! Lastly, I would like to say that I hope you have ignored the hateful, insensitive and aloof words of some of the respondents to your posts. Their posts only serve to prove that there is never a shortage of jerks. I am glad that neither you or I will ever have to wear the same uniform as these individuals. Wishing you all the best and thanking you once again for being a part of the best thing that never happened to me.

[Iver]

Will the 744 FOs also fly the 747-800 (pax and cargo) or are those considered distinct fleets? I would think being dual-qualified would make sense for efficiency but you never know...

[Ace Springbok]

I have read all of your posts regarding KAL and want to say thank you. I found them honest and well written. I am happy that you found a job and I am sure you will add value to the company you are now with. I was about to send my application to KAL for the non type rated B777 but you have given me a lot to consider and I think that was the intent of your posts all along-so thank you! Lastly, I would like to say that I hope you have ignored the hateful, insensitive and aloof words of some of the respondents to your posts. Their posts only serve to prove that there is never a shortage of jerks. I am glad that neither you or I will ever have to wear the same uniform as these individuals. Wishing you all the best and thanking you once again for being a part of the best thing that never happened to me.

There are lots of riff raffs with parker penned hours who somehow ( not that difficult if you know how to con the Korean hilly billies, especially if you have
some buddies embedded there ) made it through the hoops in KAL and now
think they are in the super big league. They will fight tooth and nail to convince new suckers that they are super skygods who made it through the toughest training and guys like Cediazf just couldn't make it. They will sing praises for KAL luring wannabes there hoping tat sheer expat numbers can get them somewhere someday. Typical scums from the bottom of the barrel who make life for the original KAL expats utterly exasperating.

Well I heard CSA is currently making a recruitment drive in that area of the woods with good salary packages and neat options. Go for it guys and make the best of it.

[cediazf]

Thank you Proud. It was encouraging and refreshing to read your post. Feeling appreciated where I am now. Corrections and recommendations during training and OE and then debriefing as in every normal airline and at the end, praised by the check airman on my checkride. What a difference. Enjoying now flying the line as a wide body Captain throughout three continents.
If my posts helped you avoid a bitter experience, I am glad.
As you rightfully said, that was the only intention.
All the best.

[4Banger]

Thanks cediazf and all others for the reply. I'm going to go make the best I can of this situation. I'm happy to hear that you have found employment elsewhere. It's tough out there for sure. Hopefully I will have some positive notes to add to this thread in the near future.

[Mullerp56]

737 NG F/O

hello there,
do you have some knowledge regarding the 737 F/o situation in KAL?
How is it to work there as aFO?
thanks,

[Mullerp56]

info

hello there,
do you have some knowledge regarding the 737 F/o situation in KAL?
How is it to work there as aFO?
thanks,

[Mullerp56]

info as well

hello there,
do you have some knowledge regarding the 737 F/o situation in KAL?
How is it to work there as aFO?
thanks,

[cediazf]

Mullerp56.
As a 737 FO you will be flying with young local Captains most of who I heard were nice as well as with more experienced ex-pats. I know 3 guys who fly (one of them I should say flew)there as FO in the 737. Training got tough at some point like for everybody else, again depending on the instructor you have but at the end they all made it . One left for the middle east after a short period of time. The other 2 as far as I know are still flying there. As I said, life is better once you pass the training and are flying the line. Routes are within south Korea and other places in Asia like China, Japan and as far as Bangkok. Communting contract is the same as for the other fleets. Training is around 3 months. Like I said before, once you finish training is not a bad place to work. Best of luck.

[Geebz]

54fighting... why do you have to act like such a dick?

If you were my FO, I'd put you in your place. If I was your FO, I'd remind you how difficult a day it can be when your partner choses not to get along with you. IOW, you don't appear to be anyone enjoyable to fly with.

So the guy missed a few things in training, who doesn't? I spent 6 years in the training department as an examiner. Those types of items he mentioned are but mere de-brief items. Aviation is not perfect. We all make mistakes. Your job on the line is: 1) to identify the problem, 2) Rectify and resolve it, 3) Move on. As an examiner, I am interested whether the guy can do a solid v1 cut, follow SOPs, fly a good visual, and make command decisions. As a Captain, I am interested in FOs who speak up if and when either of us make a mistake so that we can resolve the issue and keep flying the jet as close to SOP as possible.

If you expect perfection, you will spend so much time micro-managing everything that you'll lose sight of the big picture. The result? Asiana-type accidents.

KA and other Asian airlines are known for their "make-work" programs in the cockpit that add to the minutia of the job. By creating such a busy-work environment, you force guys to tune out. Do you really think anyone is listening to a 5-10 minute "brief" about the approach and landing? It's called a "brief" for a reason. I fly primarily throughout Asia and it becomes painfully obvious what's happening in the cockpit when a Asian carrier gets on freq. I listened to a guy tie up HF for 10 minutes yesterday to take down the details of a sigmet. Are you kidding me? Couldn't he just have asked his dispatcher for that info over ACARS? He's already in flight, moving through the air at 600 mph. He has a Wx radar. Jotting down the finer points of the sigmet isn't going to change the outcome of his flight at that stage (he likely had the info in his flight papers before he left anyway).

KA has been been in a perpetual state of hiring for as long as I can remember. Their training deficiencies as an organization are well-documented here and on other boards. Cediazf took the time to come on here and warn other pilots of the continual training issues at KA. As a line pilot yourself, you should be thankful for that. Afterall, it serves to further slow the number of applicants to your airline, which thereby solidifies your pay and stature (supply vs demand... no supply of new recruits, insures demand for your services will continue indefinitely).

I know some pilots at KA are happy. I have a few buddies there that like it. But just the same, the training environment and the anti-expat stance by Korean Nationals is also well-known. Both they and instructor colleagues I know at KA have told me the same. So don't come on here and trash a guy who takes the time to give the group a detailed report of what's still going on.

I was hired by KA back in 2008 when I took a leave from my airline. I'm glad I didn't go after all I read and heard (on here and elsewhere). I instead went to fly for an Indian carrier. I don't think I could thrive in or tolerate an environment such as KA. Some of you can. Good for you. But don't be so harsh on those of us who call it like we see it. Sheesh.

[spoton]

Spoton Geebz