B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
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We have seen the affects of severe ice on wings before throughout history, the relatively mild weather one might not have wing or engine A/I on but the fuel and moisture is doing its thing... ? (No expert just wondering). Various airlines have various guidance on maximum to land with to avoid wing ice from tanking on turn around.
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If only half of what Vortex Thing says is true, then this airline must have an awful work culture.
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For those speculating about autoflight ILS approaches and go arounds on the 737, they are normally flown single channel autopilot for Cat I and most companies only allow dual channel for Cat II/III or practice autolands. On disconnection of the single channel on Cat I, the autothrottle is also disconnected - manual control, manual thrust; Boeing insist on an all or nothing method on the 737, unlike their other types.
pressing TOGA while on a single channel app will give TOGA autothrottle while instantly disengaging the autopilot
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Vortex Thing is busy boss bashing, others are busy with A/T, TOGA buttons and things alike, some think the crew were dog tired and here is me thinking what sort of thing would make it reverse direction of travel from up to straight down, well the only thing bigger and more powerful than the boss and all the other bits is the stab.
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lomapaseo
There are tons of posts about fatigue and issues on this forum going back few years, so I told you so doesn't apply.
Lot of other forums completely discounted pprune by call them handful of whiners. Airline PR teams did a great job keeping this issue under wraps.
Now there is a carefully crafted wording about ACARS messages will tell the real story, makes me think any Do Not Divert instruction from NCC was relayed thru some other means.
There are tons of posts about fatigue and issues on this forum going back few years, so I told you so doesn't apply.
Lot of other forums completely discounted pprune by call them handful of whiners. Airline PR teams did a great job keeping this issue under wraps.
Now there is a carefully crafted wording about ACARS messages will tell the real story, makes me think any Do Not Divert instruction from NCC was relayed thru some other means.
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Cockpit voice recorder (CVR) has received mechanical damage including data cable destroyed but specialists of the laboratory of the Interstate Aviation Committee, together with specialists of UAE and France have completed the copy from the cockpit voice recorder (CVR).
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Chronus.
If the stab is not where it should be, all aboard are screwed...until it's back where it needs to be.
I sometimes wonder if my fellow pilots understand this.
If, for whatever reason, that THS is out of place- so are you.
And you will remain in a world of **** until it's back where it needs to be.
Having said that, I think this is another badly handled GA.
If it turns out to be so, I don't think many will be surprised.
If the stab is not where it should be, all aboard are screwed...until it's back where it needs to be.
I sometimes wonder if my fellow pilots understand this.
If, for whatever reason, that THS is out of place- so are you.
And you will remain in a world of **** until it's back where it needs to be.
Having said that, I think this is another badly handled GA.
If it turns out to be so, I don't think many will be surprised.
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That latest YouTube video is by far the best angle I've seen to date and confirms for me the aircraft is not stalled, that is a direct pushing down if the nose it clearly shows.
The descriptions of the repressive culture of the Airline are appreciated, however they are not surprising in the least, having flown for a SE Asian airline (737 Classic) I can unequivocally say that the reason I resigned were similar. In the hold for 2 hrs ffs... even if this were only contributory I certainly know where the blame lies.
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That latest YouTube video is by far the best angle I've seen to date and confirms for me the aircraft is not stalled, that is a direct pushing down if the nose it clearly shows.
Also, visibility and ceiling appear to be good and probably not a factor on the approach down low.
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Fuel Burn Rate
(Disclaimer: just an interested SLF with a copy of X-Plane)
I have a question: The plane was supposed to have 2+ hours worth of extra fuel on board at the time of the crash, even after two hours of holding. How are these two hours calculated? Is the endurance assumed to be at cruise altitude or is it at the assumed hold altitude?
What I'm driving at is, they were holding first at 8000, then at FL150. Is it possible the increase in fuel burn at that altitude compared to cruise was high enough to eat up the 2 hours? Is it possible the aircraft indeed ran out of fuel during the GA, stalled severely and impacted the ground while trying to recover?
I have a question: The plane was supposed to have 2+ hours worth of extra fuel on board at the time of the crash, even after two hours of holding. How are these two hours calculated? Is the endurance assumed to be at cruise altitude or is it at the assumed hold altitude?
What I'm driving at is, they were holding first at 8000, then at FL150. Is it possible the increase in fuel burn at that altitude compared to cruise was high enough to eat up the 2 hours? Is it possible the aircraft indeed ran out of fuel during the GA, stalled severely and impacted the ground while trying to recover?
Gender Faculty Specialist
Chronus.
If the stab is not where it should be, all aboard are screwed...until it's back where it needs to be.
I sometimes wonder if my fellow pilots understand this.
If, for whatever reason, that THS is out of place- so are you.
And you will remain in a world of **** until it's back where it needs to be.
Having said that, I think this is another badly handled GA.
If it turns out to be so, I don't think many will be surprised.
If the stab is not where it should be, all aboard are screwed...until it's back where it needs to be.
I sometimes wonder if my fellow pilots understand this.
If, for whatever reason, that THS is out of place- so are you.
And you will remain in a world of **** until it's back where it needs to be.
Having said that, I think this is another badly handled GA.
If it turns out to be so, I don't think many will be surprised.
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Chronos
I'm not boss bashing. I'm telling the facts as they are having flown that specific aircraft, having flown with some of the departed, having flown for the airline, having been subject to its "just culture" for many years, having had my family live in Dubai and having seen good men and women come and go.
Not only am I giving my opinion what I am saying is accompanied by rock solid irrefutable proof.
Now I am not saying the sole cause was two men but the devil is in the detail. Accountable Manager or post holder de facto has responsibilites.
The last 5 mins of the flight are indeed very important for many reasons but whatever those reasons be they act of god, mishandling, catastrophic failure they were made possible by the launch of the aircraft from base in weather in which they not only predicted not to be able to land ut was predicted for the entire duration of their fuel to be highly unlikely to allow them to do so.
I've been dispatched from Dubai in similar enough circumstance that their for the grace of god go I. FZ mgt make Enron look clean.
If you think that the whole company ethos and modus operandi has no bearing on why the plane was even airborne and not on the ground either at the ALTN or in DXB then I fear you misunderstand the swiss cheese model.
Why have any form of regulation if we never ever invoke it! This is why the resignation rate is where it is.
One of our pilots in his exit interview was asked why he was leaving. He told them I've been in the airline here for 3 years. You have not been remotely interested in anything I have to offer, anything I can bring to help or used any of my skills other than flying a plane. Now that I am leaving you want to know why! This is why!
This goes so deep it is so deeply engrained that it is rotten to the core. People have a right to know.
I'm not boss bashing. I'm telling the facts as they are having flown that specific aircraft, having flown with some of the departed, having flown for the airline, having been subject to its "just culture" for many years, having had my family live in Dubai and having seen good men and women come and go.
Not only am I giving my opinion what I am saying is accompanied by rock solid irrefutable proof.
Now I am not saying the sole cause was two men but the devil is in the detail. Accountable Manager or post holder de facto has responsibilites.
The last 5 mins of the flight are indeed very important for many reasons but whatever those reasons be they act of god, mishandling, catastrophic failure they were made possible by the launch of the aircraft from base in weather in which they not only predicted not to be able to land ut was predicted for the entire duration of their fuel to be highly unlikely to allow them to do so.
I've been dispatched from Dubai in similar enough circumstance that their for the grace of god go I. FZ mgt make Enron look clean.
If you think that the whole company ethos and modus operandi has no bearing on why the plane was even airborne and not on the ground either at the ALTN or in DXB then I fear you misunderstand the swiss cheese model.
Why have any form of regulation if we never ever invoke it! This is why the resignation rate is where it is.
One of our pilots in his exit interview was asked why he was leaving. He told them I've been in the airline here for 3 years. You have not been remotely interested in anything I have to offer, anything I can bring to help or used any of my skills other than flying a plane. Now that I am leaving you want to know why! This is why!
This goes so deep it is so deeply engrained that it is rotten to the core. People have a right to know.
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What I'm driving at is, they were holding first at 8000, then at FL150. Is it possible the increase in fuel burn at that altitude compared to cruise was high enough to eat up the 2 hours? Is it possible the aircraft indeed ran out of fuel during the GA, stalled severely and impacted the ground while trying to recover?
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Sorry Chesty just noticed your excellent post. Of course I would love to know how you know, definitely not to question but to add to my own knowledge and to aid my understanding of the plane I've operated for almost 10 years.
To anyone discussing fuel exhaustion. A) think whats in the triangle of fire and b) look at what happens milliseconds after the impact in the CCTV footage we have seen so far! Listen to the transcript and even if you dont believe they climbed to 4000' on the second go around the 737 does not fall out of the sky at that angle with just a dual engine failure/flameout.
Though I have only tried in the sim and the TRE discussed things like windmilling versus not engines and other factors they all have very little dramatic effect. Contributory factor of course right now in the absecence of the FDR anything is possible but as the main cause it would seem unlikely.
Ex Dubai
I wish, I really wish half of what I said was true the real facts are that this is toned down. There is waaaay more and I'm just giving it to you in bite sized chunks. Not only is it all true, this is not even half of it. There is more and we can prove it. Now wether anyone actually wants to listen or see the proof only time will tell.
To anyone discussing fuel exhaustion. A) think whats in the triangle of fire and b) look at what happens milliseconds after the impact in the CCTV footage we have seen so far! Listen to the transcript and even if you dont believe they climbed to 4000' on the second go around the 737 does not fall out of the sky at that angle with just a dual engine failure/flameout.
Though I have only tried in the sim and the TRE discussed things like windmilling versus not engines and other factors they all have very little dramatic effect. Contributory factor of course right now in the absecence of the FDR anything is possible but as the main cause it would seem unlikely.
Ex Dubai
I wish, I really wish half of what I said was true the real facts are that this is toned down. There is waaaay more and I'm just giving it to you in bite sized chunks. Not only is it all true, this is not even half of it. There is more and we can prove it. Now wether anyone actually wants to listen or see the proof only time will tell.
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I have to start by giving my condolences to everyone affected by this most unfortunate accident.
I believe I have a slightly different view from other people that commented as I'm both a licensed pilot ( fATPL ) and lucky enough to have an Eng. degree and a separate career (my main occupation).
I, as most of you, pursued the cockpit career out of passion, but the current employment situation in many airlines is just ridiculous and isn't compatible with it being my professional occupation. Sure, you might still have good conditions and be treated accordingly at some legacies, some smaller/exec operators but that seems the exception nowadays. Paying for training? Low salaries? Bad roster? Lack of appropriate holidays? Relocation as/when needed? Freelance work without managing owns finances? One contract fits all without unions to fight unacceptable terms? It's just plain ludicrous.
The industry just reminds me of this boiling frog anecdote
I had a very sad discussion with a European lcc last year about their T&Cs, when the time came to sign the contract. Obviously they didn't budge as the line was long and someone else is always in line to take a vacant place. Fortunately I don't have to accept that and gracefully declined.
Unfortunately everyone already committed to the job has to stick with it and do the best they can, which means enduring the pressures and stupidities described by Vortex, and accept the existing terms. After all, everyone's got to make a living. But for new joiners? How is this considered acceptable? It's probably the only industry technically complex and with high responsibility where this is happening. Sad, very sad....
These people paid the ultimate price and deserve all the respect we can give them so I won't even attempt to speculate on what happened those final minutes. The FDR and CVR were found and look readable so hopefully they'll return good data and more lessons can be learnt and changes implemented from this. But... and there's always a but, there is certainly greater factors at play. If you have a company that has your back when you diverge for safety reasons, if you are allowed to use your better judgement as a crew, if your health and well being are taken into account when you're assigned work, situations like these would be avoided. If not for other reasons, at least because you wouldn't be there in the first place.
I leave a question for the NG pilots out there. Do you ever revert to flying raw data, manual controls and manual throttle on critical situations where you are not in sync with the automation?
There's a lot of discussion here about what mode becomes what after which input depending on a window setting, etc.. That requires a lot of flow diagrams in your head on a time where mental capacity is lacking. If you're not coping, can you just pitch, power, flap settings and execute the missed app as published/briefed/instructed?
Do SOPs restrict plain old manual flight according to a chart and only then reprogram whatever automation is useful once you have mental capacity back?
The FDs are based on automation and if G/A reverts to manual throttle and manual controls then it's meant to be flown manually. Shouldn't you follow your manual flight, or at a maximum have some guidance from the FD but always with a pinch of Salt and not fully trusting it regardless of whether it shows you the brown or the blue? The same can be said about manual controls with A/T active and so on.
It seems to me that these mixed manual and automated procedures just cause more problems than what they solve once our SA and mental ability becomes reduced.
I've had instructors to whom the FDs were to be followed at all times, others that disconnected it during manual flight to avoid such confusions. This during basic training, MCCs, JOCs, NG Sim training (non TR). I really don't function well unless it's full auto or full manual. Would really like to know the opinion of NG line pilots on that.
I believe I have a slightly different view from other people that commented as I'm both a licensed pilot ( fATPL ) and lucky enough to have an Eng. degree and a separate career (my main occupation).
I, as most of you, pursued the cockpit career out of passion, but the current employment situation in many airlines is just ridiculous and isn't compatible with it being my professional occupation. Sure, you might still have good conditions and be treated accordingly at some legacies, some smaller/exec operators but that seems the exception nowadays. Paying for training? Low salaries? Bad roster? Lack of appropriate holidays? Relocation as/when needed? Freelance work without managing owns finances? One contract fits all without unions to fight unacceptable terms? It's just plain ludicrous.
The industry just reminds me of this boiling frog anecdote
I had a very sad discussion with a European lcc last year about their T&Cs, when the time came to sign the contract. Obviously they didn't budge as the line was long and someone else is always in line to take a vacant place. Fortunately I don't have to accept that and gracefully declined.
Unfortunately everyone already committed to the job has to stick with it and do the best they can, which means enduring the pressures and stupidities described by Vortex, and accept the existing terms. After all, everyone's got to make a living. But for new joiners? How is this considered acceptable? It's probably the only industry technically complex and with high responsibility where this is happening. Sad, very sad....
These people paid the ultimate price and deserve all the respect we can give them so I won't even attempt to speculate on what happened those final minutes. The FDR and CVR were found and look readable so hopefully they'll return good data and more lessons can be learnt and changes implemented from this. But... and there's always a but, there is certainly greater factors at play. If you have a company that has your back when you diverge for safety reasons, if you are allowed to use your better judgement as a crew, if your health and well being are taken into account when you're assigned work, situations like these would be avoided. If not for other reasons, at least because you wouldn't be there in the first place.
I leave a question for the NG pilots out there. Do you ever revert to flying raw data, manual controls and manual throttle on critical situations where you are not in sync with the automation?
There's a lot of discussion here about what mode becomes what after which input depending on a window setting, etc.. That requires a lot of flow diagrams in your head on a time where mental capacity is lacking. If you're not coping, can you just pitch, power, flap settings and execute the missed app as published/briefed/instructed?
Do SOPs restrict plain old manual flight according to a chart and only then reprogram whatever automation is useful once you have mental capacity back?
The FDs are based on automation and if G/A reverts to manual throttle and manual controls then it's meant to be flown manually. Shouldn't you follow your manual flight, or at a maximum have some guidance from the FD but always with a pinch of Salt and not fully trusting it regardless of whether it shows you the brown or the blue? The same can be said about manual controls with A/T active and so on.
It seems to me that these mixed manual and automated procedures just cause more problems than what they solve once our SA and mental ability becomes reduced.
I've had instructors to whom the FDs were to be followed at all times, others that disconnected it during manual flight to avoid such confusions. This during basic training, MCCs, JOCs, NG Sim training (non TR). I really don't function well unless it's full auto or full manual. Would really like to know the opinion of NG line pilots on that.
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Sadly the loss of people was the icing on the cake. Fatigue issues, endless night flying for the huge majority of pilots there, and an arrogant chief pilot that ironically smiled when captains of thousands of hours were handing in their resignations, made FZ a very bad place to be. Unless of course you were there during the first two months in the beginning and helped the Indian workers mount the air conditioning units on the wall, then no, you were ok, in all aspects. Does fatigue impair your judgement? Yes it does. If heads are not chopped after this, then it's pointless to even consider thinking for such a company.
Looking down at your pilots as slaves can work and usually you get away with it, with a huge bonus check into your pocket, but - once in a blue moon - unfortunately so - the **** hits the fan and your butt starts shaking.
Looking down at your pilots as slaves can work and usually you get away with it, with a huge bonus check into your pocket, but - once in a blue moon - unfortunately so - the **** hits the fan and your butt starts shaking.