MH17 down near Donetsk
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Phazes
If it's a catastrophic structural failure at cruising altitude the cause is immaterial. It could be a SAM, a bomb or a hundred other reasons, but the spread of debris from that height will still be the same.
If it's a catastrophic structural failure at cruising altitude the cause is immaterial. It could be a SAM, a bomb or a hundred other reasons, but the spread of debris from that height will still be the same.
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Reported - Flight recorders found and are being sent to Moscow.
Apparently almost 50% on board are NL originating (not necessarily citizens). This is from a source whose information should be reliable (but I'm only the messenger so don't have a go at me if incorrect.)
Apparently almost 50% on board are NL originating (not necessarily citizens). This is from a source whose information should be reliable (but I'm only the messenger so don't have a go at me if incorrect.)
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There were European passengers on the flight -- four French citizens have so far been identified. It is yet unclear if other European passengers were on the flight.
Last edited by roving; 17th Jul 2014 at 18:29. Reason: removed duplication from preceding post
Stercus Accidit
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Locals apparently looting the crash site:
'Mensen plunderen brokstukken vliegtuig' | Binnenland | Telegraaf.nl
Incredible that they fly directly over war area with several planes being shot down already....
'Mensen plunderen brokstukken vliegtuig' | Binnenland | Telegraaf.nl
Incredible that they fly directly over war area with several planes being shot down already....
Last edited by Capt.KAOS; 17th Jul 2014 at 18:47.
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Who knows what?
At this point in time, and given the systems in place and level of interest in current events in eastern Ukraine, it would be reasonable to assume that the Russians know exactly what happened, the Ukrainians have a good idea and the USA is also well informed.
The pro-Russian commander's FB post is obviously the boast about the smoking gun.
This is Putin's nightmare.
The pro-Russian commander's FB post is obviously the boast about the smoking gun.
This is Putin's nightmare.
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The airlines were all playing Russian Roulette - not just Malasian
The people on that aircraft were badly let down. Not only by the lunatic in East Ukraine who pulled the trigger, but by the airline industry. It could have been ANY airlines aircraft... It could have been ANY of us...
All airlines say that safety is their number one priority. Flying over or to/from war zones could scarcely be more clear cut.
It took a long time to close southern Ukrainian airspace, following the Russian invasion. To begin with the Ukrainians controlled the airspace from a different control centre and pretended everything was normal down below. The airlines lapped it up because it meant keeping direct routings open, to and from Europe.
The airlines should have been proactive - it was nothing less than their duty, but they weren't - in the case of Simferopol but also elsewhere in Ukraine. It needed common sense and a bit less greed. The threat was so obvious.
All airlines say that safety is their number one priority. Flying over or to/from war zones could scarcely be more clear cut.
It took a long time to close southern Ukrainian airspace, following the Russian invasion. To begin with the Ukrainians controlled the airspace from a different control centre and pretended everything was normal down below. The airlines lapped it up because it meant keeping direct routings open, to and from Europe.
The airlines should have been proactive - it was nothing less than their duty, but they weren't - in the case of Simferopol but also elsewhere in Ukraine. It needed common sense and a bit less greed. The threat was so obvious.
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The British Guardian newspaper has 'chapter & verse' on the rebel website which, according to that newspaper, initially claimed responsibility for shooting down an aeroplane violating its airspace. Apparently that site has since been taken down, but not before it was copied by the Western media. If correctly copied and translated, the rebels thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane, and that Ukraine had been warned not to invade the rebels' airspace.
Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
"Ukrainian rebel commander posted something about shooting down a Antonov at about the same time MH flight crasht......I can see it happening that way, rebel crew with a missile system of what they are not exact sure how to handle it, let alone being able to recognize plane types on FL 33."
I also think this is what happened, however if you are ATC(or FAA or whatever authority) you simply don't allow planes to fly over a warzone, it's stupid and sooner or later has to result with this...
I also think this is what happened, however if you are ATC(or FAA or whatever authority) you simply don't allow planes to fly over a warzone, it's stupid and sooner or later has to result with this...
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Lockerbie was completely different
@Planespeaking
If it's a catastrophic structural failure at cruising altitude the cause is immaterial. It could be a SAM, a bomb or a hundred other reasons, but the spread of debris from that height will still be the same.
For PanAm 103, the bomb made a small hole in the fuselage, breaking off the nose cone and an engine. The bulk of the plane continued intact until the plane reached 19,000 feet, at which point it went vertical. The main parts of the fuselage were within 2.4 km.
If this plane was hit mid-section by a SA-11 missile with a 70kg fragmentation high explosive warhead (as claimed), I would imagine glide of any kind would be highly improbable, and debris would therefore be far more concentrated.
If it's a catastrophic structural failure at cruising altitude the cause is immaterial. It could be a SAM, a bomb or a hundred other reasons, but the spread of debris from that height will still be the same.
For PanAm 103, the bomb made a small hole in the fuselage, breaking off the nose cone and an engine. The bulk of the plane continued intact until the plane reached 19,000 feet, at which point it went vertical. The main parts of the fuselage were within 2.4 km.
If this plane was hit mid-section by a SA-11 missile with a 70kg fragmentation high explosive warhead (as claimed), I would imagine glide of any kind would be highly improbable, and debris would therefore be far more concentrated.
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Just saw a live feed from Russian TV, they showed the tail section largely intact with a section of the leading edge and the rudder missing. Seems any impact would not have been near the tail section.
Last edited by lalbak; 17th Jul 2014 at 19:06.
I'm wondering who is currently at the crash site? The Ukrainian army? Rebels? If so, which rebels? This might have considerable influence on the on the on-site investigation, the question of where to send flightrecorders (if found) and so on...
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If indeed this proves to be a shooting down of a civilian airliner by military or para military forces, then I am afraid the words "What Have We Learned" of the Aviation Crisis Management workshop held in Brussels, 22-23 May 2012 ring hollow. See below for further particulars:
http://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/def...us-sultana.pdf
Surely the Balkan Wars had tought us something. Those of us who were around then remember the airspace closures over the area.
To allow civilian flights over a known area of escalating hostilities on the ground and in the air would be tantamount to criminal negligence. I expect soon airspace closures and restrictions will follow, but sadly it will be all too late for all those innocent lives lost in yet in another mans war.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/def...us-sultana.pdf
Surely the Balkan Wars had tought us something. Those of us who were around then remember the airspace closures over the area.
To allow civilian flights over a known area of escalating hostilities on the ground and in the air would be tantamount to criminal negligence. I expect soon airspace closures and restrictions will follow, but sadly it will be all too late for all those innocent lives lost in yet in another mans war.
Russian ITAR-TASS informing about an An-26 being shot down by a missile.
????-????: ????????????? ???????? - ????????? ??????????????? ??? ????? ??????? ??-26 ?????????? ???
But it wasn't an An-26.
????-????: ????????????? ???????? - ????????? ??????????????? ??? ????? ??????? ??-26 ?????????? ???
But it wasn't an An-26.
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Planespeaking,
MAK, the Russian Aviation Investigation Bureau is known to be one of the best if not THE best in its field and is absolutely independent and professional!
Get your facts straight first and do not believe all they say in the biassed Western media.
MAK, the Russian Aviation Investigation Bureau is known to be one of the best if not THE best in its field and is absolutely independent and professional!
Get your facts straight first and do not believe all they say in the biassed Western media.