Agusta A119 versus Eurocopter AS350B3
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Agusta A119 versus Eurocopter AS350B3
Hi all,
Ladies and Gentlemen, I need your help - again!
I need a comparison between the Agusta A119 and the Eurocopter AS350B3.
Specifically regarding external load / long line operations:
Precision work (moving drill rigs, assembling transmission towers, concrete, etc...)
What's the pro/con of each.
I do have the flight manuals and all the pertaining data of each machine.
What I need is actual experience (if you fly both in the above jobs you are the man to answer!!) with these machines!
I have a bit over 2000 hrs in the B3 and none in the 119, any suggestion from my side will be biased. So I try to find some objective comparison for a friend of mine ....
How do they hold up? Maintenance issues on site?
Operations are suggested from sea level up to 14.000 ft, summer temps up to 35°C, winter like in the alps.
I appreciate you replies!!
3top
Ladies and Gentlemen, I need your help - again!
I need a comparison between the Agusta A119 and the Eurocopter AS350B3.
Specifically regarding external load / long line operations:
Precision work (moving drill rigs, assembling transmission towers, concrete, etc...)
What's the pro/con of each.
I do have the flight manuals and all the pertaining data of each machine.
What I need is actual experience (if you fly both in the above jobs you are the man to answer!!) with these machines!
I have a bit over 2000 hrs in the B3 and none in the 119, any suggestion from my side will be biased. So I try to find some objective comparison for a friend of mine ....
How do they hold up? Maintenance issues on site?
Operations are suggested from sea level up to 14.000 ft, summer temps up to 35°C, winter like in the alps.
I appreciate you replies!!
3top
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AS350B3
A Eurocopter single-engine serial Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 lands on the TOP of the world.
On May 14th, 2005 at 7h08 (local time), a serial Ecureuil/AStar AS 350 B3 piloted by the EUROCOPTER X-test pilot Didier Delsalle, landed at 8,850 meters (29,035ft) on the top of the Mount Everest (Kingdom of Nepal).
This tremendous achievement breaks the World Record for the highest altitude landing and take-off ever, which sets an ultimate milestone in the History of Aviation.
Fabrice Brégier, President and CEO of the EUROCOPTER Group, world leading helicopter manufacturer, immediately congratulated the pilot and his team for this extraordinary feat.
After taking off from its base camp Lukla on May 14th, 2005 at 2,866 meters (9,403ft) Didier Delsalle onboard his Ecureuil AS350B3 reached the top of Mount Everest.
As required by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI - International Aeronautical Federation), the aircraft remained landed on ground more than 2 minutes on the top of the world before flying back to Lukla.
This feat was renewed the day after.
Stepping out of his helicopter, Didier Delsalle commented: « To reach this mythical summit definitively seemed to be a dream; despite the obvious difficulties of the target to be reached, the aircraft demonstrated its capability to cope with the situation (…), sublimated by the magic of the place”.
Achieved with a serial helicopter, this absolute World Record once more contributes to underline the unique qualities of the Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 as a multipurpose, reliable, quick and comfortable helicopter which emerges as the most performing aircraft in the world in the most extreme conditions.
During the trial period, Didier Delsalle and his Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 flew some rescue missions on behalf of the Nepalese authorities demonstrating the operational capabilities of the aircraft used to set the altitude landing and take-off World Record.
This feat has been achieved further to various flight tests begun one year ago with the Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 among which:
- Experimental flight up to 8,992 meters (29,500 ft) in April 2004 in Istres (France),
- “Time to climb” records to the heights of 3,000, 6,000 and 9,000 meters performed on April 14th, 2005 in respectively 2 minutes 21 seconds, 5 minutes 6 seconds and 9 minutes 26 seconds. These records smash the previous ones held by an Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B1 with respectively 2 minutes 59 seconds, 6 minutes 55 seconds and 13 minutes 52 seconds,
- Experimental flight up to 10.211 meters (33.500 ft) on April 14, 2005,
- Landing at the South Pass of Mount Everest at 7,925 meters (26,000 ft) on May 12th, 2005, establishing a new altitude landing and take-off record, previously held by a Cheetah helicopter - variant of the Lama - at 7,670 meters (25,150 ft).
With this landing on the top of the world, EUROCOPTER demonstrates that its technological innovations provide its products a length - height - ahead, set at the disposal of its worldwide customers.
To date, 3,670 Ecureuil/AStar have been sold worldwide and logged 15 million flight hours.
Since its introduction on the market, the Ecureuil/AStar/Twinstar family has been benefiting of successive improvements among which its most powerful version is the Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3. This aircraft is serial equipped with modern systems such as dual channel FADEC, Vehicule and Engine Monitoring Display, integrated GPS, etc….
424 Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 are currently in operation worldwide, mainly used for missions requiring high performances, such as aerial work (cargo sling capacity: 1,400kg) in very high and hot conditions.
EUROCOPTER is thankful to the Nepalese government and all its departments for their help and friendly support throughout this mission.
These world records are currently submitted to the official approval of the FAI.
and Eurocopter UK have a new one for sale........
On May 14th, 2005 at 7h08 (local time), a serial Ecureuil/AStar AS 350 B3 piloted by the EUROCOPTER X-test pilot Didier Delsalle, landed at 8,850 meters (29,035ft) on the top of the Mount Everest (Kingdom of Nepal).
This tremendous achievement breaks the World Record for the highest altitude landing and take-off ever, which sets an ultimate milestone in the History of Aviation.
Fabrice Brégier, President and CEO of the EUROCOPTER Group, world leading helicopter manufacturer, immediately congratulated the pilot and his team for this extraordinary feat.
After taking off from its base camp Lukla on May 14th, 2005 at 2,866 meters (9,403ft) Didier Delsalle onboard his Ecureuil AS350B3 reached the top of Mount Everest.
As required by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI - International Aeronautical Federation), the aircraft remained landed on ground more than 2 minutes on the top of the world before flying back to Lukla.
This feat was renewed the day after.
Stepping out of his helicopter, Didier Delsalle commented: « To reach this mythical summit definitively seemed to be a dream; despite the obvious difficulties of the target to be reached, the aircraft demonstrated its capability to cope with the situation (…), sublimated by the magic of the place”.
Achieved with a serial helicopter, this absolute World Record once more contributes to underline the unique qualities of the Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 as a multipurpose, reliable, quick and comfortable helicopter which emerges as the most performing aircraft in the world in the most extreme conditions.
During the trial period, Didier Delsalle and his Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 flew some rescue missions on behalf of the Nepalese authorities demonstrating the operational capabilities of the aircraft used to set the altitude landing and take-off World Record.
This feat has been achieved further to various flight tests begun one year ago with the Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 among which:
- Experimental flight up to 8,992 meters (29,500 ft) in April 2004 in Istres (France),
- “Time to climb” records to the heights of 3,000, 6,000 and 9,000 meters performed on April 14th, 2005 in respectively 2 minutes 21 seconds, 5 minutes 6 seconds and 9 minutes 26 seconds. These records smash the previous ones held by an Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B1 with respectively 2 minutes 59 seconds, 6 minutes 55 seconds and 13 minutes 52 seconds,
- Experimental flight up to 10.211 meters (33.500 ft) on April 14, 2005,
- Landing at the South Pass of Mount Everest at 7,925 meters (26,000 ft) on May 12th, 2005, establishing a new altitude landing and take-off record, previously held by a Cheetah helicopter - variant of the Lama - at 7,670 meters (25,150 ft).
With this landing on the top of the world, EUROCOPTER demonstrates that its technological innovations provide its products a length - height - ahead, set at the disposal of its worldwide customers.
To date, 3,670 Ecureuil/AStar have been sold worldwide and logged 15 million flight hours.
Since its introduction on the market, the Ecureuil/AStar/Twinstar family has been benefiting of successive improvements among which its most powerful version is the Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3. This aircraft is serial equipped with modern systems such as dual channel FADEC, Vehicule and Engine Monitoring Display, integrated GPS, etc….
424 Ecureuil/AStar AS350 B3 are currently in operation worldwide, mainly used for missions requiring high performances, such as aerial work (cargo sling capacity: 1,400kg) in very high and hot conditions.
EUROCOPTER is thankful to the Nepalese government and all its departments for their help and friendly support throughout this mission.
These world records are currently submitted to the official approval of the FAI.
and Eurocopter UK have a new one for sale........
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Swiss 46 year old with some 4'200 hrs total experience, 80% long lining, one third of them is logging.
I'm current on the Koala with poor 40 hrs experience (made in one month), and some 2'000 (like you too
) on the 350 B2/B3.
I'm actually flying a Lama for a small company (http://www.alpin.lift.ch/sergio_albertella.htm) and I had the chance to learn flying the Koala when we experienced an engine trouble during the high season time; the solely Koala operator in our country gave us the Koala to continue our operations.
I flown both the older version A 119 and the newest AW 119 KEnhanced.
http://www.alpinlift.ch/media/image_280709_01_x.htm
http://www.alpinlift.ch/media/image_290709_01_x.htm
The ship is very complicated but over redundant in all technical aspects;
electrical inverters? double!
hydraulic? double!
autopilot? double!
engine? single! (but the best engine you may have installed on an helicopter
)
When you have good technical knowledge, this helicopter is for you!
I try to resume both aspects of this ship.
(and for instance I'm speaking about the late version AW 119KE)
POSITIVE:
Speed, because it travel really in the yellow power arc @ 130 KIAS (you don't need to dive to reach it, just level off after TO with 1.5 hrs endurance and 6 pax!)
Place, even in the baggage compartement you may fall asleep maybe not alone...
Handling, like the 350 but better; you may compare it with a race horse 2 year old against a similar one at the end of his racing life!
Vortex, settling with power, like the 350 the downwash is far more about that one of the Lama, so you may "clean out" your environment; also with some 1'200 kgs at the hook you may just pull a little bit the stick fwd and the ship is flying again. That's it!
About this I noticed that the new MRH and blades (they are the same like the AGUSTA GRAND) are a newest interpretation of an older concept.
NEGATIVE:
If you're a bubble pilot and you carry an helmet, you don't have chance!
The anti crash seat is good for you health, but you'r seating is too high put your head
outside, even if the right hand pilot place is the the closest possible to the door frame (2cm more and your'e flying!)
Just the pilot task of a preflight check change you in a kind of a freeclimber who must be at the airfield a good half hour before usual!
Nobody know if this model could afford a logging season without troubles; the airframe weighs some 500 kgs(
) more than a normally equipped B3.
Maintenance is really complicated, because you have a lot of time (I mean days and months) related inspection items.
Italians are artist, but regardless of costs!
Another point which was discovered with fright, is the wrongful positioning of the the long line cargo release, which may be inadvertently activated by you when you want to position the stick and the force trim is on.
Lesson learned: NEVER DO EXTERNAL LOAD WITH FORCE TRIM ON
Abstract:
25% more expensive than an AS 350B3 at the purchase, but better warranty by the manufacturer (especially the first year).
More reliable engine against the Arriel (I'm waiting the SOLOY solution for the B3!)
More thirsty than the B3 (a good 20%, but keep in mind, you have some 100HP more)
Faster, roomier and last but not least:
@SAME CONDITIONS YOU TAKE EVERYTIME 200 KGS MORE THAN A B3 (100 more than a B3+)
So, let me know what you think about, but it is clear that I really enjoyed the Koala.
PS
(After all I like to fly any helicopter
)
PPS
I SAID HELICOPTER not such a K-Max
or a Robinsons
Cheers Sergio
I'm current on the Koala with poor 40 hrs experience (made in one month), and some 2'000 (like you too
) on the 350 B2/B3.I'm actually flying a Lama for a small company (http://www.alpin.lift.ch/sergio_albertella.htm) and I had the chance to learn flying the Koala when we experienced an engine trouble during the high season time; the solely Koala operator in our country gave us the Koala to continue our operations.
I flown both the older version A 119 and the newest AW 119 KEnhanced.
http://www.alpinlift.ch/media/image_280709_01_x.htm
http://www.alpinlift.ch/media/image_290709_01_x.htm
The ship is very complicated but over redundant in all technical aspects;
electrical inverters? double!
hydraulic? double!
autopilot? double!
engine? single! (but the best engine you may have installed on an helicopter
)When you have good technical knowledge, this helicopter is for you!
I try to resume both aspects of this ship.
(and for instance I'm speaking about the late version AW 119KE)POSITIVE:Speed, because it travel really in the yellow power arc @ 130 KIAS (you don't need to dive to reach it, just level off after TO with 1.5 hrs endurance and 6 pax!)
Place, even in the baggage compartement you may fall asleep maybe not alone...
Handling, like the 350 but better; you may compare it with a race horse 2 year old against a similar one at the end of his racing life!
Vortex, settling with power, like the 350 the downwash is far more about that one of the Lama, so you may "clean out" your environment; also with some 1'200 kgs at the hook you may just pull a little bit the stick fwd and the ship is flying again. That's it!
About this I noticed that the new MRH and blades (they are the same like the AGUSTA GRAND) are a newest interpretation of an older concept.
NEGATIVE:If you're a bubble pilot and you carry an helmet, you don't have chance!
The anti crash seat is good for you health, but you'r seating is too high put your head
outside, even if the right hand pilot place is the the closest possible to the door frame (2cm more and your'e flying!)
Just the pilot task of a preflight check change you in a kind of a freeclimber who must be at the airfield a good half hour before usual!
Nobody know if this model could afford a logging season without troubles; the airframe weighs some 500 kgs(
) more than a normally equipped B3. Maintenance is really complicated, because you have a lot of time (I mean days and months) related inspection items.
Italians are artist, but regardless of costs!
Another point which was discovered with fright, is the wrongful positioning of the the long line cargo release, which may be inadvertently activated by you when you want to position the stick and the force trim is on.
Lesson learned: NEVER DO EXTERNAL LOAD WITH FORCE TRIM ON
Abstract:
25% more expensive than an AS 350B3 at the purchase, but better warranty by the manufacturer (especially the first year).
More reliable engine against the Arriel (I'm waiting the SOLOY solution for the B3!)
More thirsty than the B3 (a good 20%, but keep in mind, you have some 100HP more)
Faster, roomier and last but not least:
@SAME CONDITIONS YOU TAKE EVERYTIME 200 KGS MORE THAN A B3 (100 more than a B3+)
So, let me know what you think about, but it is clear that I really enjoyed the Koala.
PS
(After all I like to fly any helicopter
)PPS
I SAID HELICOPTER not such a K-Max
or a RobinsonsCheers Sergio
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Hi guys,
thanx for your replies!
Jim: I know about that one and it definitely is a great discussion piece!
Though going by the MCP/MGW ratio (both are the same .....) The 119 could be able to pull this one off too.
At the end it was a publicity stunt with not much real world value.
(Delsalle was given a lot of lee-way on NG, so this definitely will reflect on the TBO for this particular engine)
There is no more chances to beat this record for any helicopter/manufacturer so I assume the others don't even bother.
Sergio:
I am 45, Austrian (but never flew in Europe ....), 11700 hrs
Are you still flying the Koala?
What is the difference in maintenance/checks/inspections for the 119 versus the B3 in a seasonal view?
Is there a lot of down time for inspections?
E.g. I am flying in a company that has a contract with a mining operation.
We rotate our B3s every 100 hrs with a factory trained certified mechanic (engineer?) on site + helpers. My mech does all the pre-flight checks, so I really only do a 5-min walk-around before every flight.
(Of course you have to know your men to trust them)
We basically have one B3 to rotate with another two on site.
Though if need be, a 100 hrs inspection can be done overnight.
Is that possible with the 119?
I know that there is still trouble with EC and customer service.
How is Agusta with that? Parts in stock?
I only sat in a 119 and for my size I just about fits (right pilot seat)
Passenger seating is a joke! (did you ever try to fit the feet of six passengers in there??)
When you talk about bubbles and helmets I assume you refer to the B3?
I fly the floor window and mirrors, but you are right, with a helmet you are quite a limited!
(By chance, do you know if it is possible to work the B3 with a helmet [B][I]and[B][I] a bubble window? E.g.: To be able to fly the floor window with a helmet and closed door one needs the bubble, but I don't know if this works with the helmet....
Where I fly we always fly doors off for long line ....
How is this working in the Koala? Bubble/Helmet?
Do you know any companies that use/used the 119 for drill rig moves, powerline tower construction, ski-lift construction, concrete work, etc...
I don't worry too much about the downwash. If it is trouble for the ground crew I use a longer line .....
What's wrong with the K-Max??
Ugly as hell, but as a longliner you should be in love with it!!
Obviously you didn't get much time in Robinsons.
If you had, you would have a different opinion of them (I did long line, training-full touch down autos to land and water, filming[action!], tuna boat landings, medevacs, toe-in exit/boarding, single skid exit/boarding, hover exit/boarding, .... and a few things more, name it I did it!).
You can not really compare Robinsons, as in their class there is no competition!
However, once you know how to work a B3 - it would be very hard to go back to a 44 !!
Please let me know more about the 119, if you get hold of more data/experience!
Best Regards,
Thomas, 3top,
PS: My favorite long liner is the K32 - I hope to get a chance in one some day!
thanx for your replies!
Jim: I know about that one and it definitely is a great discussion piece!
Though going by the MCP/MGW ratio (both are the same .....) The 119 could be able to pull this one off too.
At the end it was a publicity stunt with not much real world value.
(Delsalle was given a lot of lee-way on NG, so this definitely will reflect on the TBO for this particular engine)
There is no more chances to beat this record for any helicopter/manufacturer so I assume the others don't even bother.
Sergio:
I am 45, Austrian (but never flew in Europe ....), 11700 hrs
Are you still flying the Koala?
What is the difference in maintenance/checks/inspections for the 119 versus the B3 in a seasonal view?
Is there a lot of down time for inspections?
E.g. I am flying in a company that has a contract with a mining operation.
We rotate our B3s every 100 hrs with a factory trained certified mechanic (engineer?) on site + helpers. My mech does all the pre-flight checks, so I really only do a 5-min walk-around before every flight.
(Of course you have to know your men to trust them)
We basically have one B3 to rotate with another two on site.
Though if need be, a 100 hrs inspection can be done overnight.
Is that possible with the 119?
I know that there is still trouble with EC and customer service.
How is Agusta with that? Parts in stock?
I only sat in a 119 and for my size I just about fits (right pilot seat)
Passenger seating is a joke! (did you ever try to fit the feet of six passengers in there??)
When you talk about bubbles and helmets I assume you refer to the B3?
I fly the floor window and mirrors, but you are right, with a helmet you are quite a limited!
(By chance, do you know if it is possible to work the B3 with a helmet [B][I]and[B][I] a bubble window? E.g.: To be able to fly the floor window with a helmet and closed door one needs the bubble, but I don't know if this works with the helmet....
Where I fly we always fly doors off for long line ....
How is this working in the Koala? Bubble/Helmet?
Do you know any companies that use/used the 119 for drill rig moves, powerline tower construction, ski-lift construction, concrete work, etc...
I don't worry too much about the downwash. If it is trouble for the ground crew I use a longer line .....
What's wrong with the K-Max??
Ugly as hell, but as a longliner you should be in love with it!! Obviously you didn't get much time in Robinsons.
If you had, you would have a different opinion of them (I did long line, training-full touch down autos to land and water, filming[action!], tuna boat landings, medevacs, toe-in exit/boarding, single skid exit/boarding, hover exit/boarding, .... and a few things more, name it I did it!).
You can not really compare Robinsons, as in their class there is no competition!
However, once you know how to work a B3 - it would be very hard to go back to a 44
!!Please let me know more about the 119, if you get hold of more data/experience!
Best Regards,
Thomas, 3top,
PS: My favorite long liner is the K32 - I hope to get a chance in one some day!
Last edited by 3top; 13th Dec 2009 at 13:23.
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Hi Jim, are you EUROCOPTER representative?
It seems so.
Without trying to minimize the performance of Olivier, I believe that in that particular day you may have achieved the record also with a common Lama.
AIR ZERMATT will continue to fly Lama 'til the next century....but they are not alone!
About the mistery copter which performed the Guinnes record:
you may notice that the chinese hat is missed as well the higher ldg gear and original doors etc etc.
The ship was prepared for this performance, and turbomeca agreed also some excedances
So, nobody said that the B3 isn't a good ship, it just depend of what and where your committed to fly
It seems so.
Without trying to minimize the performance of Olivier, I believe that in that particular day you may have achieved the record also with a common Lama.
AIR ZERMATT will continue to fly Lama 'til the next century....but they are not alone!
About the mistery copter which performed the Guinnes record:
you may notice that the chinese hat is missed as well the higher ldg gear and original doors etc etc.
The ship was prepared for this performance, and turbomeca agreed also some excedances
So, nobody said that the B3 isn't a good ship, it just depend of what and where your committed to fly
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Hi 3top,
Koala still current on my license, however I did have less chances to fly it since our Lama was back in flight.
Surprisingly it seems that in my country I'm the only one that think that with a Koala you may overtake the B3... but really I haven't any troubles to take 1'400 kg at the hook @ 3'500 ft (pressure altitude) with some 15°C during a logging day.
You can really "pull out" trees like the Lama do.
The overlimit is coming after 5" and your colleague with torque wrench screwdriver and hammer in the hands is demanded to take a look just after 15" over the red line
This is quite different in the B3
About pilot position, helmet and so far, I didn't have the chance to fly an Ecureuil with bubble, but I flown some with the floor windows (from the smallest to the biggest DART's). I you have very short rotation (1.5' or so) removing the door is far better (neglecting all consideration about speed limitation...
)
The we go my thoughts (both positive and negative) only concerns the Koala.
Alpinlift
Here you see what I means about the seating position and the poo place remaining between your head and the cabin frame!
Imagine now with a door installed and a bubble
I also forgot to tell you that the pedals are too close to the pilot and it would be nice if there were the same STC that exist for the Bell (because the pedals are the same).
In our country almost every helicopter operator is now flying B2/B3/B3+, but at least two big operator remains with the Lama.
Ecureuil is the right "bonne à tout faire", a kind of passepartout which since the very earlier version (B in the late '80s) performed external load missions in our country with a total experience that today certainly comes to over 2 hundred thousand hours
!
You may compare it with the few hours flown on the same task by Koalas worldwide.
About maintenance I cannot say very much since the ship I flown is own and operated by another operator,
Try to look to karen, maybe they may help you.
The Koala is really heavy compared to the B3 (about 500 kgs) so if Agusta would be capable to bring it at the same empty mass like the B3, you would have an helicopter which should lift of with 1'800 kgs on the hook, and that would be really a dream for an helicopter of a similar shape.
Unfortunately I fear that this absolutely does not care to Agusta.
We are considering to be a kind of "guinea pigs" in our country, maybe we could join our efforts and go together to Agusta, bringing a project with a definite flight hours number.
If you consider that with a dramatically reduced empty mass the Koala can be compete with a Bell medium, perhaps Agusta suddenly sees a new market gap and decides to enter race.
Finally, I believe that everyone finds pleasure to fly the machines that the most convincing. Since I have some experience as a mechanic, my approaches is different from your. (K-Max wooden blades in 2009, central stick in the robinsons)
Koala still current on my license, however I did have less chances to fly it since our Lama was back in flight.
Surprisingly it seems that in my country I'm the only one that think that with a Koala you may overtake the B3... but really I haven't any troubles to take 1'400 kg at the hook @ 3'500 ft (pressure altitude) with some 15°C during a logging day.
You can really "pull out" trees like the Lama do.
The overlimit is coming after 5" and your colleague with torque wrench screwdriver and hammer in the hands is demanded to take a look just after 15" over the red line
This is quite different in the B3
About pilot position, helmet and so far, I didn't have the chance to fly an Ecureuil with bubble, but I flown some with the floor windows (from the smallest to the biggest DART's). I you have very short rotation (1.5' or so) removing the door is far better (neglecting all consideration about speed limitation...
)The we go my thoughts (both positive and negative) only concerns the Koala.
Alpinlift
Here you see what I means about the seating position and the poo place remaining between your head and the cabin frame!
Imagine now with a door installed and a bubble
I also forgot to tell you that the pedals are too close to the pilot and it would be nice if there were the same STC that exist for the Bell (because the pedals are the same).
In our country almost every helicopter operator is now flying B2/B3/B3+, but at least two big operator remains with the Lama.
Ecureuil is the right "bonne à tout faire", a kind of passepartout which since the very earlier version (B in the late '80s) performed external load missions in our country with a total experience that today certainly comes to over 2 hundred thousand hours
!You may compare it with the few hours flown on the same task by Koalas worldwide.
About maintenance I cannot say very much since the ship I flown is own and operated by another operator,
Try to look to karen, maybe they may help you.
The Koala is really heavy compared to the B3 (about 500 kgs) so if Agusta would be capable to bring it at the same empty mass like the B3, you would have an helicopter which should lift of with 1'800 kgs on the hook, and that would be really a dream for an helicopter of a similar shape.
Unfortunately I fear that this absolutely does not care to Agusta.
We are considering to be a kind of "guinea pigs" in our country, maybe we could join our efforts and go together to Agusta, bringing a project with a definite flight hours number.
If you consider that with a dramatically reduced empty mass the Koala can be compete with a Bell medium, perhaps Agusta suddenly sees a new market gap and decides to enter race.
Finally, I believe that everyone finds pleasure to fly the machines that the most convincing. Since I have some experience as a mechanic, my approaches is different from your. (K-Max wooden blades in 2009
, central stick in the robinsons)
Having operated both 407 & 350 here I can confidently say the 350B3+ will leave the 407 for dead slinging. Over 6,000' plus 30oC the 407 struggles to hover where the 350 will still sling almost half her weight. As for AOG Eurocopters support is far better than Bell at least in India. Given a choice I'd fly the 350 but does take a LOT more to get used too, reliable tractors thats what they are 
As for PAX much more comfy & heaps of boot space compared the 407
As for PAX much more comfy & heaps of boot space compared the 407
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Hi, I didn't have the chance to fly a 407, but you may try the Koala.....amazing, exciting!(the newest KE version any case).
The 417 was on our whislist but Bell abandoned this project...
If the BELL guys are continuing on that way, they will just survive for the military market like the russians too
Since I have the maintenance license on the JR, I believe that BELL is certainly reliable but just old; from that point of view a B3 is by far the best helicopter (until the engine.....nobody means to transplant a PT6 on the B3??)
The 417 was on our whislist but Bell abandoned this project...
If the BELL guys are continuing on that way, they will just survive for the military market like the russians too
Since I have the maintenance license on the JR, I believe that BELL is certainly reliable but just old; from that point of view a B3 is by far the best helicopter (until the engine.....nobody means to transplant a PT6 on the B3??)
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how about this in a B3.
https://commerce.honeywell.com/webap...4298&langId=-1
https://commerce.honeywell.com/webap...4298&langId=-1
Hmmmm collectively our 4 x 350B3's have accumulated over 11,000hrs hard sling work without a single engine problem & still going strong. So I don't know what your talking about ?????
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Guys,
thank you again for all the replies!
Okay - the 407 is out. Does not lift the same as either the B3 or the 119 and if you work it hard it becomes a high maintenance ship!
Theoretical transplants don't help much either!
PT6 in a B3 is ridiculous! You would have to down rate it to match the trans and you are back where you are!
Is the HTS 900 already STCed? Besides here we have the same issue with the trans and no one will retrofit a perfectly okay B3!
For myself, I always pick the B3, because I know it!
However in this specific case the A119 would be prefered by the aircraft supplier for ties with Agusta, regional considerations, etc.
The same provider though, does know the B3 and can get it for the job if selected, too.
I do have some feedback from Koala drivers and generally they seem to perform, I definitelly consider them, BUT the feedback has nothing to do with max performance, long lining, etc. .....
My concern is:
- Can the 119 perform in the field like the B3?
- Can 100 hrs inspections be done over night? (Real inspections!! Not just paperwork ones!)
- How is the sparepart supply situation from Agusta?
- At 6'2" will I fit with a helmet?
- Will I fit with the helmet out the door?
- Bubble window/door available?
Just real world long line experience!!
Thanks to all - keep it coming!
3top
thank you again for all the replies!
Okay - the 407 is out. Does not lift the same as either the B3 or the 119 and if you work it hard it becomes a high maintenance ship!
Theoretical transplants don't help much either!
PT6 in a B3 is ridiculous! You would have to down rate it to match the trans and you are back where you are!
Is the HTS 900 already STCed? Besides here we have the same issue with the trans and no one will retrofit a perfectly okay B3!
For myself, I always pick the B3, because I know it!
However in this specific case the A119 would be prefered by the aircraft supplier for ties with Agusta, regional considerations, etc.
The same provider though, does know the B3 and can get it for the job if selected, too.
I do have some feedback from Koala drivers and generally they seem to perform, I definitelly consider them, BUT the feedback has nothing to do with max performance, long lining, etc. .....
My concern is:
- Can the 119 perform in the field like the B3?
- Can 100 hrs inspections be done over night? (Real inspections!! Not just paperwork ones!)
- How is the sparepart supply situation from Agusta?
- At 6'2" will I fit with a helmet?
- Will I fit with the helmet out the door?
- Bubble window/door available?
Just real world long line experience!!
Thanks to all - keep it coming!
3top
6'2" approx 188 cm?!
I am 190cm / 100 kg and have trouble to seat in AW119Ke
No space for helmet in my case.
You may ask FAASA Aviacion people in Spain for the rest,
they have 6 units in Fire Fighting operations and authorized
service center http://www.faasa.org/
I am 190cm / 100 kg and have trouble to seat in AW119Ke
No space for helmet
in my case.You may ask FAASA Aviacion people in Spain for the rest,
they have 6 units in Fire Fighting operations and authorized
service center http://www.faasa.org/
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Sorry vertical freedom, but it seems that I involuntary hurt you!
I mean that in our country (which I remember you is about 6 time smaller than Yukon) the annual flight hours / ship are about 500 to 600, practically only external load long lining / logging, with an average time per rotation around two minutes (I flown logging about 100 m distance under one minute).
Definitely that is stressing your engine far away of that you're supposed to fly, when you design an helicopter and his engine.
They are actually about 50 registered B3 and the competition is heavier afgainst somewhere in the world.
I recall my cycles per hour rate as far beyond that suggested by EC or Turbomeca.
My TRQ overlimits too...
That is the reason because almost every operator is scared when the Arriel is going to a workshop for a module exchange.
The fee is every time the double as planned!!
That's also the reason why when somebody try to explain me how to flying external, I suggest to come here for a short holiday...
Since my earlier mechanic experience I learned that the worldwide best freewheel turbo shaft is and remain the PT6 with an unsurpassed positive hours/troubles rate
The reason why nobody can help 3top in his inquiry is simply because nobody can recall such experience with a Koala, but too much stupid urban legends are every where
In our country it is only a single operator owning both version (older and newer) but since they are operated for personal use of the owner (and maybe just 10% for commercial duty) it is really hard to compare it with a B3.
I suggested to contact Karen which is the only agreed maintenance operator in our country and Mr Nicora may help you.
Maintenance during night is never a problem since you aren't alone (human factor)
Any case the cowboy time when you flown the whole season but forgot to write for the maintenance is far away, but if the authority snap you you may lost more than won 'til there.
Switzerland is close to Italy and despite the Koala being manufactured in the USA, for us AOG is not a problem.
I don't know if you see my picture seating in the Koala, but I'm 182 cm tall so you may convert it.
Dart sell a bubble door which is FAA and CAA certified, (and I hope so also EASA in short time), but from now on I believe that with the original anti crash seats it would be impossible for me to keep the door on (for you too).
Of the 40 hrs flown in the Koala, about two third is logging time, with a 48 m logging line double CANAM nubbins chocker.
The helicopter climb @50 KIAS (with a brief acceleration leg) more than 2'800 ft/min which is by far better than our Lama (you remember computer+ 0.05?) or the B3s I flown 'til today (normalB3s not a +)
At about 4'500 ft DA with a cement bucket weighing 950 kgs I still climb (at the end of yellow arc) about 800 ft/min and that at a speed of 90 KIAS.
About limitation, there is on the Koala no such "gong" that is stressing you directly to an over limit.
On the Koala you still have on the upper screen a digital representation of your analogical instruments (like the 407 isn't?) and when the red is coming you have comfortable 5 second to react; but anycase on the RFM there is a superb explanation how limitation are working.
Keep in mind that it is an Italian ship and the guys there are a bit complicated, so for an example the fuel tank drain are electrical operated, but we had a clogged drain valve which simply drip the whole day because it didn't close completely (dirt in tank?).
The systems are really redundant as I wrote, but also too much complicated (just look at the fuel storage):
I don't know if it would be a good competitor against the B3, but from pilot to pilot you would enjoy it.
Long lining is fabulous, although you're seating on the wrong side the visibility is close to perfect; the ship despite of his mass is reacting very fast as soon you're learning how to manage with the double stabilization device, but keep in mind to fly with out force trim on!!!
When you "throw" the cargo hook trough the trees, you may recover the ship in a matter that recall a single stage turboshaft (like the Lama's artouste IIIB) and I didn't experienced any trouble with surging or similar.
That is also a reason why I definitely loved the PT6 and none will convince me that the Arriel is better!
The last good Turbomeca engine was that on the Lama!!
!I mean that in our country (which I remember you is about 6 time smaller than Yukon) the annual flight hours / ship are about 500 to 600, practically only external load long lining / logging, with an average time per rotation around two minutes (I flown logging about 100 m distance under one minute).
Definitely that is stressing your engine far away of that you're supposed to fly, when you design an helicopter and his engine.
They are actually about 50 registered B3 and the competition is heavier afgainst somewhere in the world.
I recall my cycles per hour rate as far beyond that suggested by EC or Turbomeca.
My TRQ overlimits too...
That is the reason because almost every operator is scared when the Arriel is going to a workshop for a module exchange.
The fee is every time the double as planned!!
That's also the reason why when somebody try to explain me how to flying external, I suggest to come here for a short holiday...
Since my earlier mechanic experience I learned that the worldwide best freewheel turbo shaft is and remain the PT6 with an unsurpassed positive hours/troubles rate
The reason why nobody can help 3top in his inquiry is simply because nobody can recall such experience with a Koala, but too much stupid urban legends are every where
In our country it is only a single operator owning both version (older and newer) but since they are operated for personal use of the owner (and maybe just 10% for commercial duty) it is really hard to compare it with a B3.
I suggested to contact Karen which is the only agreed maintenance operator in our country and Mr Nicora may help you.
Maintenance during night is never a problem since you aren't alone (human factor)
Any case the cowboy time when you flown the whole season but forgot to write for the maintenance is far away, but if the authority snap you you may lost more than won 'til there.
Switzerland is close to Italy and despite the Koala being manufactured in the USA, for us AOG is not a problem.
I don't know if you see my picture seating in the Koala, but I'm 182 cm tall so you may convert it.
Dart sell a bubble door which is FAA and CAA certified, (and I hope so also EASA in short time), but from now on I believe that with the original anti crash seats it would be impossible for me to keep the door on (for you too).
Of the 40 hrs flown in the Koala, about two third is logging time, with a 48 m logging line double CANAM nubbins chocker.
The helicopter climb @50 KIAS (with a brief acceleration leg) more than 2'800 ft/min which is by far better than our Lama (you remember computer+ 0.05?) or the B3s I flown 'til today (normalB3s not a +)
At about 4'500 ft DA with a cement bucket weighing 950 kgs I still climb (at the end of yellow arc) about 800 ft/min and that at a speed of 90 KIAS.
About limitation, there is on the Koala no such "gong" that is stressing you directly to an over limit.
On the Koala you still have on the upper screen a digital representation of your analogical instruments (like the 407 isn't?) and when the red is coming you have comfortable 5 second to react; but anycase on the RFM there is a superb explanation how limitation are working.
Keep in mind that it is an Italian ship and the guys there are a bit complicated, so for an example the fuel tank drain are electrical operated, but we had a clogged drain valve which simply drip the whole day because it didn't close completely (dirt in tank?).
The systems are really redundant as I wrote, but also too much complicated (just look at the fuel storage):
I don't know if it would be a good competitor against the B3, but from pilot to pilot you would enjoy it.
Long lining is fabulous, although you're seating on the wrong side the visibility is close to perfect; the ship despite of his mass is reacting very fast as soon you're learning how to manage with the double stabilization device, but keep in mind to fly with out force trim on!!!
When you "throw" the cargo hook trough the trees, you may recover the ship in a matter that recall a single stage turboshaft (like the Lama's artouste IIIB) and I didn't experienced any trouble with surging or similar.
That is also a reason why I definitely loved the PT6 and none will convince me that the Arriel is better!
The last good Turbomeca engine was that on the Lama!!
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Sergio,
thanx a LOT for your details!
I will contact the suggested companies for their experience!
Now I DON'T agree with your assessment of
" ....why when somebody try to explain me how to flying external, I suggest to come here for a short holiday..."
I have the same problem with a guy in our company - with about your total time and long line experience!
I take it from old timers that this attitude will bite you someday!
Using the gong as a limit is NOT the way to go, nor pulling over torques all day!
If you hear the gong or you pull over limit you are OVER THE LIMIT!!
You are not supposed to go there!
I know competition is all about winnig the next contract, but going constantly OVER LIMIT is NOT the way to go! ASK THE OLD TIMERS!
(You do not want to catch the cat in a helicopter that was constantly abused by someone else, do you?)
From my own career I can atest that your level of total time is one of the most dangerous ones in a helo career - basically there is NO one who can teach you something new, one is the king of skies and who are you to teach me something new?
Been there, done that - NOT pround of it, ....but not afraid to tell either.
My colleague is doing the gong over limit thing constantly - it happens to me about once every 3 month. We still do the same job ......
Also, thinking that the Artouste/Astazou engine family are better than the Arriel - coming from a mechanic??
A little like comparing a '28 Ford-T engine to 2004 modular V-8 ......
Did you ever stall a Artouste at altitude?? Friend of mine did and it is scarry!!
One way to deal with the high cycle count on the Arriel is to take it easy on the collective. Everytime you smack it to the bottom the cycle count goes through the roof - take it slow(collective) and smooth and your count will come down.
Cowboy stuff is costing cycles!
Sooooo, I take it, that there is no way to fly a helmet in the Koala then....
Bad point.
Well, .... keep it coming!
3top,
thanx a LOT for your details!
I will contact the suggested companies for their experience!
Now I DON'T agree with your assessment of
" ....why when somebody try to explain me how to flying external, I suggest to come here for a short holiday..."
I have the same problem with a guy in our company - with about your total time and long line experience!
I take it from old timers that this attitude will bite you someday!
Using the gong as a limit is NOT the way to go, nor pulling over torques all day!
If you hear the gong or you pull over limit you are OVER THE LIMIT!!
You are not supposed to go there!
I know competition is all about winnig the next contract, but going constantly OVER LIMIT is NOT the way to go! ASK THE OLD TIMERS!
(You do not want to catch the cat in a helicopter that was constantly abused by someone else, do you?)
From my own career I can atest that your level of total time is one of the most dangerous ones in a helo career - basically there is NO one who can teach you something new, one is the king of skies and who are you to teach me something new?
Been there, done that - NOT pround of it, ....but not afraid to tell either.
My colleague is doing the gong over limit thing constantly - it happens to me about once every 3 month. We still do the same job ......
Also, thinking that the Artouste/Astazou engine family are better than the Arriel - coming from a mechanic??
A little like comparing a '28 Ford-T engine to 2004 modular V-8 ......
Did you ever stall a Artouste at altitude?? Friend of mine did and it is scarry!!
One way to deal with the high cycle count on the Arriel is to take it easy on the collective. Everytime you smack it to the bottom the cycle count goes through the roof - take it slow(collective) and smooth and your count will come down.
Cowboy stuff is costing cycles!
Sooooo, I take it, that there is no way to fly a helmet in the Koala then....
Bad point.
Well, .... keep it coming!
3top,
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Thank's 3Top, I really appreciate your hint.
No I'm not such king of the air...I never been one.
With 46 and some 4'200 hrs I'm not more the young pilot who's looking to be famous.
The graveyards are full of famous pilots!
The most important thing in my life is my family (a 3.5 year daughter and my wife) and my final goal is to be retired @ 60!
What I would try to explain is that the pilot is the final step of a staircase where the hammer hits the stronger! So you are every time under great pressure...
Mean time I scaled down a gear and I flown last month (since 11 months I didn't anymore) the B3 without any O/L
I'm looking if it would be possible to fit the older A109 seat instead the anticrash one in the Koala.
The eventual question is: what is better, to wear an helmet or to seat anticrash proof?
No I'm not such king of the air...I never been one.
With 46 and some 4'200 hrs I'm not more the young pilot who's looking to be famous.
The graveyards are full of famous pilots!
The most important thing in my life is my family (a 3.5 year daughter and my wife) and my final goal is to be retired @ 60!
What I would try to explain is that the pilot is the final step of a staircase where the hammer hits the stronger! So you are every time under great pressure...
Mean time I scaled down a gear and I flown last month (since 11 months I didn't anymore) the B3 without any O/L
I'm looking if it would be possible to fit the older A109 seat instead the anticrash one in the Koala.
The eventual question is: what is better, to wear an helmet or to seat anticrash proof?
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Hi Sergio,
....please let me in on the secret "how to retire at 60" .... when you find it!
I found that age helps with the "famous/hero syndrome" - - but not always.
Often a "near-miss" experience helps to straighten out, but with myself it took a lot of those to smart up .......
The real change is when your first offspring arrives - most times this results in a complete change in priorities! .... at least for me!
(My gang is 3 strong, 5+9, wife)
Doing longline, I believe the helmet to be the more important item - if I have to choose.....
Mostly the environment around long lining is rather rough after the crash and you may get tossed around a lot.
Obviously BOTH items (helmet + crashseat) are the ticket - in the B3 that's the only seat for me anyway. The old plastic buckets are aweful!!
Sergio, thanx again for your info!
Let me know, if/when something more is coming up!
Cheers,
3top
....please let me in on the secret "how to retire at 60" .... when you find it!
I found that age helps with the "famous/hero syndrome" -
- but not always.Often a "near-miss" experience helps to straighten out, but with myself it took a lot of those to smart up .......
The real change is when your first offspring arrives - most times this results in a complete change in priorities!
.... at least for me! (My gang is 3 strong, 5+9, wife)
Doing longline, I believe the helmet to be the more important item - if I have to choose.....
Mostly the environment around long lining is rather rough after the crash and you may get tossed around a lot.
Obviously BOTH items (helmet + crashseat) are the ticket - in the B3 that's the only seat for me anyway. The old plastic buckets are aweful!!
Sergio, thanx again for your info!
Let me know, if/when something more is coming up!
Cheers,
3top
