Gliding stories
There is a ASW-20 (A model I think) in a Komet trailer for sale at my home airport. It has been sitting outside in the trailer unflown for 9 years. Thoughts/opinions ?
There is no compulsion to use the most aggressive flap setting if it isn’t required and the glider will land perfectly well even in neutral flap; there are all sorts of “omigod” stories regarding the “legendary” and “dangerous" short field performance but having flown “A” models, I regard it as a useful extension to the flight envelope and fairly benign if you know what to expect and are in practice.
In terms of stalling/spinning, the ’20 will do both with a bit of provocation but if you’re used to doing that kind of thing in powered light aircraft, you’ll find the vast majority of gliders quite sedate, due to the comparatively long spans/fuselages and lack of torque/slipstream effects. I have yet to spin a soaring glider (as opposed to an purpose-built aerobatic one) that was anywhere near a lowly C150 in excitement. The problems appear when you fly close to or outside the CofG limits but you had that one coming, didn’t you?
The downsides of an early model ’20 are:
a) It’ll be fairly old by now but if it’s been properly maintained, this shouldn’t be an issue.
b) Manually connected controls after rigging. Quite a few people have left the gene pool because of this.
c) The gelcoat may not be in the best condition. Due to the flexible wings and the type of gel/thinners Schleicher used, it tends to crack/craze a lot.
If it has been sitting in a trailer for 9 years with no attention, I’d be very worried about the state of well, everything! If it was in Arizona, it’d probably be OK. Most other places, definitely not. The ASW-15 had an issue with fungal growth in the spar when mistreated - the ’20 has less wood in it but there still might be some ply in the spar roots in-between the glass, I can’t remember. Modern machines are all carbon/aramid now. If the trailer wasn’t completely sealed, insects have made nests in the pneumatic plumbing and small mammals have probably nibbled their way around the wings and fuselage, having a go at any wiring en-route. If it wasn’t liberally greased after its last flight, I’d expect all the exposed metal to be well rusty and any bearings to be in poor condition. If the instruments were left in there, I’d be surprised if any of them worked.
In short, I’d avoid it. There are probably well loved examples around which although more expensive, will not need much spending on them. It might be worth pulling this one out of the trailer and having a sniff but bring someone who knows sailplanes and preferably maintains/repairs them for a living...
My Schweizer 1-35C had flaps. Loved them. There was no treachery. I have heard people say bad things about Cessna flaps that go to 40 degrees. I like those too.
BPF, Check PMs.
The A model has two landing flap settings while the B and C models have just the first one which is quite adequate. The extreme landing flap setting in the A model has a rather low maximum airspeed. Exceed that and you are in a noseover
Schleicher got rid of that in the later models.
The 20 is not difficult, but you do have to read the manual first. It's not a club glider.
The A model has two landing flap settings while the B and C models have just the first one which is quite adequate. The extreme landing flap setting in the A model has a rather low maximum airspeed. Exceed that and you are in a noseover
Schleicher got rid of that in the later models. The 20 is not difficult, but you do have to read the manual first. It's not a club glider.
Full wings
Thanks for the info. I am new to gliding but have a lot of light aircraft flying experience including float, tailwheel, flying formation and teaching aerobatics, so I am not too concerned about the basic handling and I figure I can ease into using the flaps. My glider port has a long field so there is no need for a super slow approach.
My instructor has over 9000 flights and has flown pretty much every glider made and so before I go any further we will pull it out of the trailer, assemble it and see how it looks. The deal will probably flounder right there, but we will see and in any case the price has to be very right.
I currently own one airplane and a half share of another, so I have no illusions about the reality of aircraft restoration/repair/maintenence
. At least with gliders there is less oil and grease. 
As for the rigging issue, well with hardly any looking I found 6 reports of pilots who took off with the elevator not connected
. The good news for me is that there is space for it to live in the club hangar fully rigged.
Thanks for the info. I am new to gliding but have a lot of light aircraft flying experience including float, tailwheel, flying formation and teaching aerobatics, so I am not too concerned about the basic handling and I figure I can ease into using the flaps. My glider port has a long field so there is no need for a super slow approach.
My instructor has over 9000 flights and has flown pretty much every glider made and so before I go any further we will pull it out of the trailer, assemble it and see how it looks. The deal will probably flounder right there, but we will see and in any case the price has to be very right.
I currently own one airplane and a half share of another, so I have no illusions about the reality of aircraft restoration/repair/maintenence
. At least with gliders there is less oil and grease. As for the rigging issue, well with hardly any looking I found 6 reports of pilots who took off with the elevator not connected
. The good news for me is that there is space for it to live in the club hangar fully rigged.
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Keep it in a hangar fully rigged? not planning to rig and derig, so not planning to fly cross country? Because if you did intend to fly cross country you should be well practiced in rigging and derigging your glider. It does NOT require an engineer to remove and replace the wings, just a good design and practice and a decent trailer.
Of course the US is the country where instructors in gliders are not required to have flown cross country. Can it be that Canada also does not require cross country flying in gliders to become proficient enough to instruct? dear dear.
I do hope that when you extract this ASW20 from its storage that it gives you pause. Skill in light aircraft and the other disciplines does not necessarily translate into soaring flight. For one thing, despite advances like flarm, it is still customary for gliders to fly closer together than power fliers are accustomed to, especially in competition. From day one in gliders, lookout should be paramount. The eyes outboard, not scanning the panel. How is your lookout?
Now if you were to start your gliding in a K8, I would be truly impressed.
As it is, I am just a tad concerned. Open spaces in Canada didn't prevent a recent midair when "blind spots" of opposing traffic resulted in fatality....
Of course the US is the country where instructors in gliders are not required to have flown cross country. Can it be that Canada also does not require cross country flying in gliders to become proficient enough to instruct? dear dear.
I do hope that when you extract this ASW20 from its storage that it gives you pause. Skill in light aircraft and the other disciplines does not necessarily translate into soaring flight. For one thing, despite advances like flarm, it is still customary for gliders to fly closer together than power fliers are accustomed to, especially in competition. From day one in gliders, lookout should be paramount. The eyes outboard, not scanning the panel. How is your lookout?
Now if you were to start your gliding in a K8, I would be truly impressed.
As it is, I am just a tad concerned. Open spaces in Canada didn't prevent a recent midair when "blind spots" of opposing traffic resulted in fatality....
Mary
My instructor was trained in the government cadet program in Poland in the 1970's. It was a very complete education in flying gliders. He also has cross country glider experience in 4 continents so I am pretty sure he knows all about that part of glider flying. The important thing is he feels I can handle an ASW 20.
As for the flying close to other airplanes, well with 240 hours of logged formation time with the other airplane wing tip 10 feet from mine at bank angles up to 90 degrees, I think I got that part weighed off. In any case it sure makes flying behind the tow plane pretty easy as it is just like extended trail but with no manoevering and the spacing with lead taken care of for you
Anyway it won't be until mid October before I will even be able to get a look inside the trailer so this is a long way from a done deal.
My instructor was trained in the government cadet program in Poland in the 1970's. It was a very complete education in flying gliders. He also has cross country glider experience in 4 continents so I am pretty sure he knows all about that part of glider flying. The important thing is he feels I can handle an ASW 20.
As for the flying close to other airplanes, well with 240 hours of logged formation time with the other airplane wing tip 10 feet from mine at bank angles up to 90 degrees, I think I got that part weighed off. In any case it sure makes flying behind the tow plane pretty easy as it is just like extended trail but with no manoevering and the spacing with lead taken care of for you
Anyway it won't be until mid October before I will even be able to get a look inside the trailer so this is a long way from a done deal.
I say go for it. At Harris hill we kept our gliders rigged in the hangar with no ill effects. I kept my aluminum ship rigged outside. That was hard on the paint. I have never flown an ASW20 but there have been a couple in the clubs I have been in. One guy who had an ASW20 used to fly B17's before he joined the airlines.
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I say : look at the ASW20 with an experienced glider engineer and take their advice.
The work needed before flying it may be fairly small, or more major. That needs to be taken into account with the pricing. As has been stated, in a dry climate, good trailer, then more likely less work.
The ASW20 whilst old is a classic glider (newer than most C180s for instance),
Suitable for someone with a bit of experience.
Don't be put off, if it looks OK and the price is right go for it!
No engine to worry about!
The work needed before flying it may be fairly small, or more major. That needs to be taken into account with the pricing. As has been stated, in a dry climate, good trailer, then more likely less work.
The ASW20 whilst old is a classic glider (newer than most C180s for instance),
Suitable for someone with a bit of experience.
Don't be put off, if it looks OK and the price is right go for it!
No engine to worry about!
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Hey, IFMU, as an American glider pilot, can you confirm or otherwise my impression that X-country experience is not required to instruct in gliders?
Seemed to me in my long ago dealings with FAA GADOs, they didn't really speak the language at all at all.
As far as American built gliders are concerned, o dear! Constructed from aluminum (now how do we pronounce THAT word?) they are very sturdy and can be left outside, furthermore they are by definition a Faraday cage and so you don't have to worry when tickling CuNimbs! but have they yet built a decent 2 seater in the US of A? some of the experimental single seaters look interesting....but if I were looking for a nice glider now, it would still be something that would qualify for the Club Class competition....if I could afford one, an LS8....
Most old farts that still fly gliders prefer something with a handy get you home device, like self launching DG - now that is a very decent beast indeed, the t/o performance superb, the glide ratio very impressive, and still currently being flown x-country by the only person in my club who is older than me..... And he does hangar it in a T-hangar in the summertime..... but in the winter it goes back in its trailer in his home driveway, and he buggers off to Spain. All right for some.
But if you intend to shelter your baby in the club hangar, beware of hangar rash. This is caused by other eager pilots not noticing when their wingtips key your immaculate finish...
Seemed to me in my long ago dealings with FAA GADOs, they didn't really speak the language at all at all.
As far as American built gliders are concerned, o dear! Constructed from aluminum (now how do we pronounce THAT word?) they are very sturdy and can be left outside, furthermore they are by definition a Faraday cage and so you don't have to worry when tickling CuNimbs! but have they yet built a decent 2 seater in the US of A? some of the experimental single seaters look interesting....but if I were looking for a nice glider now, it would still be something that would qualify for the Club Class competition....if I could afford one, an LS8....
Most old farts that still fly gliders prefer something with a handy get you home device, like self launching DG - now that is a very decent beast indeed, the t/o performance superb, the glide ratio very impressive, and still currently being flown x-country by the only person in my club who is older than me..... And he does hangar it in a T-hangar in the summertime..... but in the winter it goes back in its trailer in his home driveway, and he buggers off to Spain. All right for some.
But if you intend to shelter your baby in the club hangar, beware of hangar rash. This is caused by other eager pilots not noticing when their wingtips key your immaculate finish...
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Mary,
I would suggest that if you spell it Aluminum it's pronounced Al-ooo-min-um
On the other hand, if you spell it (correctly) Aluminium then it's pronounced Al-you-min-ee-um
OC619
I would suggest that if you spell it Aluminum it's pronounced Al-ooo-min-um
On the other hand, if you spell it (correctly) Aluminium then it's pronounced Al-you-min-ee-um
OC619
Mary,
I can confirm there is no x-c experience required to instruct. In a good club there is no lack of good x-c instruction. I never did any x-c, not counting an out 30NM and back on a great and easy day. Because of lack of spousal support, I never had the time to commit to x-c. But, I still had a lot of fun.
Not much in American 2 seaters. I like the 2-33 for training. It is a very cost effective machine, safe, and fun to fly. Once my kids hit 60 lbs I could put them in the front with ballast. We had ASK21's too, a much nicer glider but for kids the upright seating and ability to go in the front was a lot better.
As far as single seat metal American gliders, I would get another 1-35 in a heartbeat. I could be just as happy in a 1-26 or 1-34. I recognize they are not the ultimate machine. But, I had a lot of fun flying them.
Bryan
I can confirm there is no x-c experience required to instruct. In a good club there is no lack of good x-c instruction. I never did any x-c, not counting an out 30NM and back on a great and easy day. Because of lack of spousal support, I never had the time to commit to x-c. But, I still had a lot of fun.
Not much in American 2 seaters. I like the 2-33 for training. It is a very cost effective machine, safe, and fun to fly. Once my kids hit 60 lbs I could put them in the front with ballast. We had ASK21's too, a much nicer glider but for kids the upright seating and ability to go in the front was a lot better.
As far as single seat metal American gliders, I would get another 1-35 in a heartbeat. I could be just as happy in a 1-26 or 1-34. I recognize they are not the ultimate machine. But, I had a lot of fun flying them.
Bryan
XC for Canadian Instructors
Mary,
Our club put 3 candidates into the SAC Instructor course.
Only one had XC experience -- private owner.
Our club put 3 candidates into the SAC Instructor course.
Only one had XC experience -- private owner.
A SAC class 1 instructor ( ie one who does not have to be under supervision when teaching) has to have at least a silver badge.
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TANKENGINE, as an aussie pilot with reasonable intelligence (you give good advice!) are you saddened by the shortcomings of American and Canadian gliding? that cross country flying is not considered essential to instruct, and in fact does not seem to be encouraged? No wonder the sport does not attract young people!
Can it be that the North American climate is too cold most of the year, and the pattern of agriculture too challenging to offer comfortable fields and friendly farmers, as can be found in Britain...
I reckon its because in the only two states with warm winters (Florida and California) the countryside is cluttered with orange groves, shopping centers and impenetrable swamps. The culture is hostile to trespassers. The landowners keep firearms handy. No wonder Ramblers and Glider pilots would feel nervous about walking or flying cross country and possibly landing out!
My recommendation is that American and Canadian pilots who need to practice the art do at once plan a winter visit to Australia or New Zealand, including at least 2 weeks on a cross country gliding course, to make up for the sad lack of adventure in North American flying.
Then next summer a trip to Europe, to do a bit of rock polishing in the alps, or the Welsh mountains. And get your 50 k in a wooden glider, do it properly! Visit a farmer. I think the gliding culture in Poland would be tip top; they do build sturdy gliders. Big Pistons, perhaps your chief instructor could organise an expedition next year? Now that would be an adventure!
Can it be that the North American climate is too cold most of the year, and the pattern of agriculture too challenging to offer comfortable fields and friendly farmers, as can be found in Britain...
I reckon its because in the only two states with warm winters (Florida and California) the countryside is cluttered with orange groves, shopping centers and impenetrable swamps. The culture is hostile to trespassers. The landowners keep firearms handy. No wonder Ramblers and Glider pilots would feel nervous about walking or flying cross country and possibly landing out!
My recommendation is that American and Canadian pilots who need to practice the art do at once plan a winter visit to Australia or New Zealand, including at least 2 weeks on a cross country gliding course, to make up for the sad lack of adventure in North American flying.
Then next summer a trip to Europe, to do a bit of rock polishing in the alps, or the Welsh mountains. And get your 50 k in a wooden glider, do it properly! Visit a farmer. I think the gliding culture in Poland would be tip top; they do build sturdy gliders. Big Pistons, perhaps your chief instructor could organise an expedition next year? Now that would be an adventure!
Hey Mary
Ive flown X country in UK and Oz and there are challenges of distance in Oz. For example Sydney is bad for cross country flying as you have the great dividing range as a big barrier thats tricky to fly over as you wouldnt want to land out in what we call tiger country. I used to have to do a 1 hr drive to Camden then hire a Cessna 172RG or 182 to Narromine (around 1 1/2 hours) just to do a 100km X Country. If you landed out you could get an aero tow retrieve as paddocks are huge. Or you could visit Waikerie or Benalla which are a long way from big cities and do great X countries from there. And a 100k triangle isnt really a X Country when you can cruise at 5000-10000 feet in blue thermals! You are basically in gliding range of the home airfield the whole flight.
In UK I did have one lady farmer come angrily over with a shotgun after I landed in her paddock. Fortunately our club could offer a free passenger flight for farmers, which smoothed things over with her. UK paddocks are often too small for aerotow retrieval.
Ive flown X country in UK and Oz and there are challenges of distance in Oz. For example Sydney is bad for cross country flying as you have the great dividing range as a big barrier thats tricky to fly over as you wouldnt want to land out in what we call tiger country. I used to have to do a 1 hr drive to Camden then hire a Cessna 172RG or 182 to Narromine (around 1 1/2 hours) just to do a 100km X Country. If you landed out you could get an aero tow retrieve as paddocks are huge. Or you could visit Waikerie or Benalla which are a long way from big cities and do great X countries from there. And a 100k triangle isnt really a X Country when you can cruise at 5000-10000 feet in blue thermals! You are basically in gliding range of the home airfield the whole flight.
In UK I did have one lady farmer come angrily over with a shotgun after I landed in her paddock. Fortunately our club could offer a free passenger flight for farmers, which smoothed things over with her. UK paddocks are often too small for aerotow retrieval.
Cross country was definitely encouraged. They taught both places I was a member. At Nutmeg Soaring it was more "follow me" for the longer stuff. At Harris Hill we had some national team members and a Duo Discus. People in Nutmeg used to fly from Connecticut up to Vermont and back. At Harris Hill there was a huge amount of x-c with several 1000k trips flown out of there. I also soared in a commercial operation in Florida. While the commercial operation did not promote x-c, people did it with their own ships. Cloud base there is generally not high, but the lift is reliable when it is good. Lots of convection. You can even land out in Florida as my buddy with a Ka6 proved a bunch of times. I have not flown out west but the soaring there is legendary.
Don't feel sorry for me, or any of us colonials for lack of opportunity Mary! But, if you want to feel sorry for those of us that don't have the spousal support to fully engage that would be ok. Still, I am glad for the soaring I was able to do, and I will get back someday. It looks great out here in the Midwest.
Don't feel sorry for me, or any of us colonials for lack of opportunity Mary! But, if you want to feel sorry for those of us that don't have the spousal support to fully engage that would be ok. Still, I am glad for the soaring I was able to do, and I will get back someday. It looks great out here in the Midwest.
By sticking to the manufacturer's advice as given in the pilot's manual, the flaps on the '20' are not a problem and they give the aircraft the performance of a much more modern glider at half the price. Miss handle them and......well! What is almost certainly a problem is that the glider has been left in a trailer for 9 years.
Bottom line is the willingness of the owner to realize that and price it accordingly. We have not had that conversation yet.....
Mary,
Like the US, a Canadian Instructor's Rating from TC doesn't require any cross-country experience. Almost all of my instructing was done before I had ANY cross-country experience, but then most of the flights were above the airfield or in the circuit.
However, that doesn't mean there is a lack of cross-country flying. See this year's Online Contest for Canada:
Statistic: Club OLC 2014 - Canada
I totted up by eye about 400,000 km in <2500 flights. Not bad for a country that has probably less than 1500 glider pilots who can fly for only six months of the year.
Also, many of the serious cross-country pilots are very dedicated. Next year's Nationals will be in Olds, Alberta. For Southern Ontario pilots, that's a 3600 km drive and for Quebec pilots, 4200 km. Ironically, the quickest route is through the US.
Like the US, a Canadian Instructor's Rating from TC doesn't require any cross-country experience. Almost all of my instructing was done before I had ANY cross-country experience, but then most of the flights were above the airfield or in the circuit.
However, that doesn't mean there is a lack of cross-country flying. See this year's Online Contest for Canada:
Statistic: Club OLC 2014 - Canada
I totted up by eye about 400,000 km in <2500 flights. Not bad for a country that has probably less than 1500 glider pilots who can fly for only six months of the year.
Also, many of the serious cross-country pilots are very dedicated. Next year's Nationals will be in Olds, Alberta. For Southern Ontario pilots, that's a 3600 km drive and for Quebec pilots, 4200 km. Ironically, the quickest route is through the US.
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BPF - Fullwings has described the pitfalls of the ASW20 in excellent detail. Assuming you get a good one, you'll be impressed with how pleasant and easy it is to fly. But after a very short while you will go home disappointed. Why? Because unless you are mentored through the next step, you won't be able to use the performance which will lead to frustration. Let's make no mistake, we are talking about a cross-country machine. To knock a hole in the sky in it or using it just to do circuits would be like using a Ferrari to store coal in. You already understand weather, wind, clouds but you will his have to learn about them generally from underneath. Gluing wave, ridge and thermal lift together will take a few seasons to learn. The best way to learn will initially be on lead-and-follow trips and then possibly a competition or two. Regarding the landing flaps, even though your field is long, how long will the field you land out in be? And would you prefer to land in a field you haven't surveyed at a high speed or a low one? But having said that, the landing flap in the ASW20B is more than adequate.
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