Gliding stories
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
"share of our 1962 Ka8b,not much in the way of performance but easy access,just waiting for something better to come along "
That would be the Ka8c then..
That would be the Ka8c then..
Make that a K18 and I would be happy
- surely a K18 is one of the nicest gliders ever built,I did manage a few flights in one in the early 90's - very very nice
Shortest Glider flight
Has anyone done a shorter first X Country flight? I took off from Dunstable in a club K23 on my first silver C distance attempt (50km flight). I got to about 10km away when I realised there was insufficient lift to complete the flight so turned back to Dunstable. I realised I would not make it back but that there was a model glider slope at Ivinghoe beacon so thought I may get slope lift off there to then get home. But the lift was insufficient and at a rather low height I decided to land in a small sloping field near there but adjacent to a road. Successfully landed across the slope and was only 4km from Dunstable field. Unfortunately too small for an aerotow retrieve so waited for the trailer whilst the instructors flying at Dunstable could easily see my poor landing spot. I did a successful 50km flight a day or two later when conditions were good. Merry Christmas.
Has anyone done a shorter first X Country flight? I took off from Dunstable in a club K23 on my first silver C distance attempt (50km flight). I got to about 10km away when I realised there was insufficient lift to complete the flight so turned back to Dunstable. I realised I would not make it back but that there was a model glider slope at Ivinghoe beacon so thought I may get slope lift off there to then get home. But the lift was insufficient and at a rather low height I decided to land in a small sloping field near there but adjacent to a road. Successfully landed across the slope and was only 4km from Dunstable field. Unfortunately too small for an aerotow retrieve so waited for the trailer whilst the instructors flying at Dunstable could easily see my poor landing spot. I did a successful 50km flight a day or two later when conditions were good. Merry Christmas.
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Spinning
A short clip of my first Spin in an open top K6cr out of St Rémy en Provence after I did a re qualification to fly my grandkids.
and one the other way
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Since the CFI had just flown an air test after major maintenance and decided that spinning it wasn’t a good idea and it was my first flight ever in an open top single seater I decided prudence might be a good idea.
I will add that I very early left a smoking hole in the ground in the mid 70s when someone had adjusted the brakes up on a Condor which limited the rudder movement and it took three full turns to recover. My then student wasn’t so lucky 20 years later and did leave a smoking hole and a re kitted Christian Eagle somewhere in Hampshire.
ps I’m a woose
and if you are counting
I will add that I very early left a smoking hole in the ground in the mid 70s when someone had adjusted the brakes up on a Condor which limited the rudder movement and it took three full turns to recover. My then student wasn’t so lucky 20 years later and did leave a smoking hole and a re kitted Christian Eagle somewhere in Hampshire.
ps I’m a woose
Last edited by blind pew; 24th Dec 2021 at 13:46.
Avoid imitations
Originally Posted by India Four Two
Three-quarters of a turn each way! Does that really count? 
While full spin demonstrations are useful in early training so that students understand them including how to recover, the hazard of emphasis on keeping the stick all the way back on entering a full spin is that it builds muscle memory that can kill you in a spin entry turning base or final.
The ground will get in the way of a recovery from a low level full spin.
The emphasis needs to be on never allowing a wing drop in the circuit to develop into a spin.
We lose many more pilots from spins in the circuit than spins from altitude.
The ground will get in the way of a recovery from a low level full spin.
The emphasis needs to be on never allowing a wing drop in the circuit to develop into a spin.
We lose many more pilots from spins in the circuit than spins from altitude.
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The Brits do a very good demonstration of spinning off a failed winch launch which is very similar to what kills pilots getting low in the circuit and « trying to stretch the glide ». It basically starts with the correct attitude but not the right speed; whilst looking at the threshold blogs starts a turn but with insufficient bank because he is aware of lack of energy and uses too much rudder to increase the turn rate; the nose starts dropping and bank increases which leads to blogs applying out of turn aileron and stopping the nose dropping with elevator…voila..rolls on its bank and its all over.
Demonstrating a full spin as low as safe is about giving blogs confidence and demonstrating the different visual horizon compared with a higher altitude.
When I went back into gliding after a break of 25 years the CFI demonstrated a full spin at 1,000ft which I thought was reckless…later I joined the realms of the converted.
My K6 spins were the first ones I had done in at least 5 years and maybe 10 since I stopped instructing. Far too many pilots are unnecessarily frightened of them.
Demonstrating a full spin as low as safe is about giving blogs confidence and demonstrating the different visual horizon compared with a higher altitude.
When I went back into gliding after a break of 25 years the CFI demonstrated a full spin at 1,000ft which I thought was reckless…later I joined the realms of the converted.
My K6 spins were the first ones I had done in at least 5 years and maybe 10 since I stopped instructing. Far too many pilots are unnecessarily frightened of them.
Thread Starter
I will do a couple of replies to some of the above posts in the next couple of days but meanwhile it appears to be that time of year again so just to wish all the PPRuNe glider guiders past and present a Merry Christmas and for some good flying in the New Year.
rgds LR
rgds LR
Thought police antagonist
Originally Posted by blind pew
Since the CFI had just flown an air test after major maintenance and decided that spinning it wasn’t a good idea and it was my first flight ever in an open top single seater I decided prudence might be a good idea.
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Nahhh
CFI brought up on glass and from the later generation who haven't had the try it yourself spirit.
My first spin in glass was in the Pyrenees whilst under the wing of Spreckly with the world and his dog saying you don't spin a first generation 30 year old glider..My phoebus C..Spreckly insisted you should spin everything you fly within reason..so after a couple of days going through how to get out blindfolded I climbed up to 4 grand above the airfield and tried it several times until I got the hang of a smooth recovery. It wasn't as viscious as my later pilatus B4 which went through the vertical during recovery but still exciting.
I wouldn't spin a star ship especially the big Nimbus 2 seater which had a propensity to shedding bits of its wing but everything else and why Not?
The biggest load is in the recovery and generally I didn't get over 2.5g. I've had a lot more flying in the alps, one time I was knocked semi conscious with the airbrakes opening and the undercarriage lowering during a transit between mountains.
PS a CofA air test should cover all of the flight envelope.
My first spin in glass was in the Pyrenees whilst under the wing of Spreckly with the world and his dog saying you don't spin a first generation 30 year old glider..My phoebus C..Spreckly insisted you should spin everything you fly within reason..so after a couple of days going through how to get out blindfolded I climbed up to 4 grand above the airfield and tried it several times until I got the hang of a smooth recovery. It wasn't as viscious as my later pilatus B4 which went through the vertical during recovery but still exciting.
I wouldn't spin a star ship especially the big Nimbus 2 seater which had a propensity to shedding bits of its wing but everything else and why Not?
The biggest load is in the recovery and generally I didn't get over 2.5g. I've had a lot more flying in the alps, one time I was knocked semi conscious with the airbrakes opening and the undercarriage lowering during a transit between mountains.
PS a CofA air test should cover all of the flight envelope.
Last edited by blind pew; 26th Dec 2021 at 14:58. Reason: PS
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
While full spin demonstrations are useful in early training so that students understand them including how to recover, the hazard of emphasis on keeping the stick all the way back on entering a full spin is that it builds muscle memory that can kill you in a spin entry turning base or final.
The ground will get in the way of a recovery from a low level full spin.
The emphasis needs to be on never allowing a wing drop in the circuit to develop into a spin.
We lose many more pilots from spins in the circuit than spins from altitude.
The ground will get in the way of a recovery from a low level full spin.
The emphasis needs to be on never allowing a wing drop in the circuit to develop into a spin.
We lose many more pilots from spins in the circuit than spins from altitude.
Thought police antagonist
Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
/\ What he said. Unless you are deliberately doing glider aerobatics in a certified aerobatic glider and have the appropriate training, keeping pro spin controls in after the departure from controlled flight has no use in conventional gliding. It also as was mentioned, is negative training. IMO the most useless exercise in glider training is when the Instructor says "show me a one turn spin". Spin training both during initial and recurrent training should be scenario based on how glider pilots get into trouble in the real world. The recovery should be started as soon at the break and performance is measured on how quickly normal controlled is regained and on how little altitude lost. The muscle memory you want to develop is the instinctive stick forward ailerons neutral control yaw with rudder at the moment the glider starts to depart from controlled flight.
My rationale for this is for the instructor to be able to monitor the process from start to finish which is beneficial for both parties and certainly for the debrief.
Aerobatics are fine, if, as you say, the pilot is fully trained / authorised as is the aircraft but given spinning has a well established notoriety to kill even experienced pilots, then why would anybody risk doing them just for the sake of doing so. There are plenty of other ways to demonstrate good airmanship and flying skills without participating in an inherently dangerous action just for the " bravado" of doing so.
In our local gliding areas the thermals can be very narrow especially at lower altitudes. I have had the glider start to depart from controlled flight once when I was trying to force it into the core with excessive bank and the very low airspeed required to reduce the turning radius enough to stay the thermal. It was a non event as I recovered immediately at the wing drop, gave myself a mental slap upside the head, and went looking for a better thermal. This scenario makes a good training exercise as does setting up the killer base to final turn with bottom rudder used to drive the nose towards the runway. In this scenario knowing how to recover from a one turn spin is going to be absolutely useless as you will likely hit the ground before one rotation has occurred. The only way you can save yourself is with immediate recognition and recovery. Once any significant rotation has occurred you are done like dinner.
The bottom line is any aircraft needs to be stalled and yawing to spin. If the stall is immediately broken and the yaw rapidly countered, no aircraft will spin. If you glider is actually in a spin then it is because you put it there.
The bottom line is any aircraft needs to be stalled and yawing to spin. If the stall is immediately broken and the yaw rapidly countered, no aircraft will spin. If you glider is actually in a spin then it is because you put it there.
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
The bottom line is any aircraft needs to be stalled and yawing to spin. If the stall is immediately broken and the yaw rapidly countered, no aircraft will spin. If you glider is actually in a spin then it is because you put it there.
I was once given a good piece of advice by a very experienced chap (graduate of ETPS, that sort of thing). He said if the aircraft does something you didn't expect, don't wait to work out what's going on - just move the stick forward to lower the nose first, then think about it.
First X/C
I attempted my first X/C on a hanglider, by going downwind, on an intermediate glider, with no vario, and dropping onto a tiny ridge 2.5 miles from take off. I didn't get up from there and so was faced with a walk back to take off, carrying all my glider and harness, or a 3 mile walk downwind to the nearest road, on a blazing hot July day. The next attempt, also from the same site, was with a borrowed vario and I doubled the site record, flying 25 miles.
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Gosh….I was just having a bit of fun wearing my paragliding helmet with GoPro attached to see what a spin in an open top glider felt like… it’s child’s play compared with what most paraglider pilots do and even at my ripe old age it was an non event.
One of the top civil UK aerobatic pilots …a mate who got me into competition level Aeros…commented in that I entered on one with two much energy (aka similar to a partial flick) and was cheating.
I will comment on what to do if all goes wrong and that is I put all of the controls in the middle to start with…stuffing the stick forward killed a fellow Trident pilot at the Châteauroux worlds many moons ago as he went into an inverted spin before digging a hole.
‘I’ve had that fall out of the sky feeling a couple of times below 200ft when mountain soaring both in the Alp Maritime and in South Africa, the latter where the glider flicked inverted, the second time in a heavier than air flying machine in 40 plus years. Controls central, allow nose to drop, build up speed and roll …it worked and was helped by terrain that fell away which is one of the prerequisites of mountain flying as taught by the french. IMHO it was the correct way.
The cause? Probably a massive thermal kicking off from the quarry adjacent to the slope I was soaring which formed a rotor at the quarry edge. I would guess we flew through the edge and the recovery was away and underneath the air mass.
I always regretted that my instructor never showed me spin recovery on a limited panel including identifying whether positive or negative as was in one of my training syllabi. I’ve only read about it in books but during my initial training limited panel instrument readings were demonstrated in upright spins.
You might be right about learning the position but I’ve seen line copilots and occasionally captains so frightened that they’ve frozen..we even had one of the latter lock himself in the toilet when he couldn’t cope with a situation. AF447 would appear to be one of those situations and one could argue that Gonesse with the copilot calling speed repeatedly and being ignored by the captain obviously out of his ability might have been another.
‘Flying is about having fun and not taking yourself too seriously’
One of the top civil UK aerobatic pilots …a mate who got me into competition level Aeros…commented in that I entered on one with two much energy (aka similar to a partial flick) and was cheating.
I will comment on what to do if all goes wrong and that is I put all of the controls in the middle to start with…stuffing the stick forward killed a fellow Trident pilot at the Châteauroux worlds many moons ago as he went into an inverted spin before digging a hole.
‘I’ve had that fall out of the sky feeling a couple of times below 200ft when mountain soaring both in the Alp Maritime and in South Africa, the latter where the glider flicked inverted, the second time in a heavier than air flying machine in 40 plus years. Controls central, allow nose to drop, build up speed and roll …it worked and was helped by terrain that fell away which is one of the prerequisites of mountain flying as taught by the french. IMHO it was the correct way.
The cause? Probably a massive thermal kicking off from the quarry adjacent to the slope I was soaring which formed a rotor at the quarry edge. I would guess we flew through the edge and the recovery was away and underneath the air mass.
I always regretted that my instructor never showed me spin recovery on a limited panel including identifying whether positive or negative as was in one of my training syllabi. I’ve only read about it in books but during my initial training limited panel instrument readings were demonstrated in upright spins.
You might be right about learning the position but I’ve seen line copilots and occasionally captains so frightened that they’ve frozen..we even had one of the latter lock himself in the toilet when he couldn’t cope with a situation. AF447 would appear to be one of those situations and one could argue that Gonesse with the copilot calling speed repeatedly and being ignored by the captain obviously out of his ability might have been another.
‘Flying is about having fun and not taking yourself too seriously’
