Two Typhoons chasing a Puma
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CRV7?! A-A?! That's a new one. Assuming the FJ ever closed for guns (let's remember when you see a Puma and a Typhoon playing in this fashion its not really representative of what a Typhoon would do for real) then the Apache would have to turn and face the FJ and carefully aim it's one shot at a highly agile FJ. What odds would you give on that being successful?
I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.
BV
I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.
BV
Without wishing to be inflammatory, dismissive or rude but your answer above shows that you have never conducted FJ vs RW engagements or at the very least have forgotten how trained RW crews conduct themselves.
I can assure you from personal experience of engagements with Typhoon, Hawk, Tornado F3 & GR4, Harrier, Jaguar, F-15 and other RW that every type DOES fight how they would for real or are mirroring how an adversary would fight. If this was not the case then it would just be having fun and not training.
Prior to every evasion sortie a comprehensive brief with all crews involved is conducted thats lays out the tactics being employed. This is a legal requirement.
I remember a fight about 6 or 7 yrs ago with a Typhoon from the OEU with a QWI flying it, arguably the best possible A-A pilot in the RAF by virtue of his quals and position. We had to squawk, fly high, straight and level, A-A Tacan and give our location for us just to be seen.
Once in the merge we lived to fight another day in every fight, albeit by working bloody hard as a crew and using highly slick CRM/chat. 2 v 1 the odds were obviously not as great, but not a foregone conclusion by any stretch.
With a trained crew, good CRM, DAS and a bit of luck, RW have a high chance of not dying. However, the chances of a crewman getting an A-A kill are possible but not probable...
Last edited by heights good; 19th Aug 2017 at 20:43.
Did this with Tornado F3 v Puma and found it quite difficult to see the heli. However, once seen, the Puma tended to go to ground. If the spot was marked I suspect a hundred rounds of 27mm close to the spot might have fixed the issue.
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Interesting read produced by 'Foo' Kennard, whom I can vouch from personal experience is a very knowledgeable and competent QHTI with 10 yrs experience of FJ vs RW.
http://www.heliopsmag.com/heliops-fr.../helos-vs-jets
The short version - you have to invest in realistic and difficult training, effective DAS and let crews practice, often.
http://www.heliopsmag.com/heliops-fr.../helos-vs-jets
The short version - you have to invest in realistic and difficult training, effective DAS and let crews practice, often.
Thanks for the link!
Paul was one of the best students on the UAS during my QFI time there - and that article is truly excellent.
Paul was one of the best students on the UAS during my QFI time there - and that article is truly excellent.
heights good.
If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.
Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.
One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.
You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.
Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.
Anyway, must get to work.
BV
If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.
Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.
One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.
You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.
Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.
Anyway, must get to work.
BV
heights good.
If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.
Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.
One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.
You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.
Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.
Anyway, must get to work.
BV
If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.
Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.
One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.
You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.
Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.
Anyway, must get to work.
BV
You asked for AH input and have dismissed it.
I too have work to do.
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heights good.
If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.
Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.
One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.
You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.
Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.
Anyway, must get to work.
BV
If you read back through the thread you'd see I clearly stated I have never fought a helicopter. It doesn't mean I can't have a decent understanding of the rigours involved though.
Please don't take this as a 'FJs are better than helos' crusade. Again, if you read back through the thread you'll see no one has started that.
One quick point to add though. I am well aware of how hard helos can be to spot/acquire. Maintaining tally with an aggressively manoeuvring helo would obviously be very challenging as well.
You mention about training how you fight. However, you also add that 2v1 the odds were not as good. Since FJs tend to always travel in pairs this gives you an idea that a raging singleton trying to get a guns kill on a helo is not necessarily how it would be done for real. What you saw was training for the worst case scenario for all parties. Obviously the best way to train. The fact does still remain that there's a very good chance a FJ may never acquire the helo in which case you have your 'win'.
Sloppylink mentioned how dangerous the Apache can be (I agree it is odd that we are discussing Typhoon vs Apache but I didn't start it!). I never argued that it wouldn't scare a FJ pilot to see rockets coming at him. I did argue that the chances of scoring a hit with CRV7 were slim. I don't believe that has been refuted yet.
Anyway, must get to work.
BV
Just another point in a 2 v 1 fight, from personal experience 2 x FJ doesnt = 2 x Tally especially in a visual fight at low level with hilly terrain which makes a BVR engagement problematic. I remember a 2v2 over the sea, ideal conditions for a BVR fight, it was not the outcome that most would expect.
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Another point that is worth emphasising, a win for a FJ is generally a kill. For RW, or for that matter ME, just surviving the engagement is a win. This means the conduct of the engagement, especially the merge is different for each aircraft type.
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As the OP I'm very pleased with the level of interest and lively discussion my post has generated. I've learnt a lot more thank you.
Referring back to my previous post on the subject of FJ intercepts of helos (Sept 2011), I was fortunate enough to be contacted by the Captain of the Merlin that was talking part in that exercise and he confirmed what I had assumed which was neither of the Typhoons had obtained target acquisition.
Either way, I am thankful that I live in an area where I'm privileged to observe such exercises on my doorstep and as a taxpayer I would like to thank the MOD and all the personnel involved for providing me with some spectacular visual entertainment.
May Isuggest to anyone reading this who has the influence to initiate further exercises of this nature, please organise many more and let me know when, so that I can have my deckchair and a cold beer set up outside on my strip, ready and waiting.
Referring back to my previous post on the subject of FJ intercepts of helos (Sept 2011), I was fortunate enough to be contacted by the Captain of the Merlin that was talking part in that exercise and he confirmed what I had assumed which was neither of the Typhoons had obtained target acquisition.
Either way, I am thankful that I live in an area where I'm privileged to observe such exercises on my doorstep and as a taxpayer I would like to thank the MOD and all the personnel involved for providing me with some spectacular visual entertainment.
May Isuggest to anyone reading this who has the influence to initiate further exercises of this nature, please organise many more and let me know when, so that I can have my deckchair and a cold beer set up outside on my strip, ready and waiting.
Avoid imitations
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I was involved in various pre-briefed "fighter affil" exercises, as it was known back in my RAF Puma time, mainly with Hawk and Harrier (which dates me, I know...). Plus the many " bounces" we used to experience in Germany.
We often had to "con" the jet aircraft pilot onto us, because without our help visual acquisition overland was tfd, despite the area being part of the brief. It wasn't difficult to evade. One Harrier pilot said in the debrief that unless he had a lot of fuel to spare and nothing better to do, which was unlikely, he probably wouldn't bother to mix it for long with a rotary winged, low flying target of opportunity that began to evade properly. He also said that if the helicopter fired back, he would definitely give it a very wide berth.
Trying to compare rates of turn and "sustained G" to obtain a good firing position between FJ and RW are almost irrelevant especially to a modern armed helicopter. I can also confirm that the Puma is very capable of manoeuvring in the vertical sense as well as the horizontal. I was more worried about slower armed aircraft such as the Pucara, Frogfoot etc. Not forgetting the Soviet helicopters designed with the aim of shooting down other helicopters.
We often had to "con" the jet aircraft pilot onto us, because without our help visual acquisition overland was tfd, despite the area being part of the brief. It wasn't difficult to evade. One Harrier pilot said in the debrief that unless he had a lot of fuel to spare and nothing better to do, which was unlikely, he probably wouldn't bother to mix it for long with a rotary winged, low flying target of opportunity that began to evade properly. He also said that if the helicopter fired back, he would definitely give it a very wide berth.
Trying to compare rates of turn and "sustained G" to obtain a good firing position between FJ and RW are almost irrelevant especially to a modern armed helicopter. I can also confirm that the Puma is very capable of manoeuvring in the vertical sense as well as the horizontal. I was more worried about slower armed aircraft such as the Pucara, Frogfoot etc. Not forgetting the Soviet helicopters designed with the aim of shooting down other helicopters.
Great discussion folks.
I always found the Huey shoot down of the An-2 interesting, and yes I realize an An-2 is not a FJ
https://cherrieswriter.files.wordpre...2/att00072.jpg
I always found the Huey shoot down of the An-2 interesting, and yes I realize an An-2 is not a FJ
https://cherrieswriter.files.wordpre...2/att00072.jpg
The two German Alpha Jet wings were tasked against helicopters. Fun blokes they were too.
Probably the Hinds and Hips would have been easier targets. Less agile. Certainly in big formations if they tried an air assault.
Probably the Hinds and Hips would have been easier targets. Less agile. Certainly in big formations if they tried an air assault.
