Two Typhoons chasing a Puma
Yes, the FJ comes in steep and the helo pulls up to face it, lets go with the rockets and cannon and dives for the weeds again.
I am not talking about a helo in a hover but one which is manoeuvring to avoid being shot down.
I am not talking about a helo in a hover but one which is manoeuvring to avoid being shot down.
BV,
"The FJ will come in steep if they intend to strafe" - which is exactly why RW tactics are what they are, to make that shot as difficult and uncomfortable as possible for the FJ - before the helo starts shooting back as well. Did you have a chance at doing any affil on the FL?
The Tally is the key; get the Tally early (and maintain it!) and it's actually very simple to defeat the FJ (1v1 at least) in visual (i.e. strafe) range. Since WW1 pilot ability/training, first tally and starting position (speed/height/energy) are often the decisive factors.
"The FJ will come in steep if they intend to strafe" - which is exactly why RW tactics are what they are, to make that shot as difficult and uncomfortable as possible for the FJ - before the helo starts shooting back as well. Did you have a chance at doing any affil on the FL?
The Tally is the key; get the Tally early (and maintain it!) and it's actually very simple to defeat the FJ (1v1 at least) in visual (i.e. strafe) range. Since WW1 pilot ability/training, first tally and starting position (speed/height/energy) are often the decisive factors.
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An almost forgotten war for most, but six helicopters downed over two days. This by SAAF Impala's (home built Aermachchi MB's) during the conflict in Angola.
From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aermacchi_MB-326 "Impala Mk IIs were also opportunistically used as interceptors. In several encounters in 1985 with Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters they shot down a total of six. This happened during a crucial phase of the ground war, when Angolan and Cuban troops were checked in an offensive against UNITA bases. This ended in disaster for the Angolan/Cuban alliance when their supplies were cut off by UNITA and the SAAF and front line troops ran out of ammunition. Helicopters were being used to supply the besieged troops and the SAAF cut off this link. Two Mi-24s were shot down in the first encounter while escorting Mi-17s. The MiG-21s that escorted them flew too high to react in time. Two days later the Impala Mk IIs struck again, downing two Mi-24s and two Mi-17s."
From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aermacchi_MB-326 "Impala Mk IIs were also opportunistically used as interceptors. In several encounters in 1985 with Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters they shot down a total of six. This happened during a crucial phase of the ground war, when Angolan and Cuban troops were checked in an offensive against UNITA bases. This ended in disaster for the Angolan/Cuban alliance when their supplies were cut off by UNITA and the SAAF and front line troops ran out of ammunition. Helicopters were being used to supply the besieged troops and the SAAF cut off this link. Two Mi-24s were shot down in the first encounter while escorting Mi-17s. The MiG-21s that escorted them flew too high to react in time. Two days later the Impala Mk IIs struck again, downing two Mi-24s and two Mi-17s."
In F-4 days, we were advised not bother trying to play with helicopters. "Just go supersonic low over the top of them, that'll swat the buggers down" was the QWI advice...
A cheeky bit of strafe against a helo was always fun to practice. However, these days ASRAAM with helmet cuing would be the weapon of choice for a FJ, no need to worry about losing IR due to rotor downwash with that bad boy!
Oh, and even with less capable weapons there have been plenty of FJ vs Helo kills:
6 Feb 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Bo-105
A USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.
7 Feb 1991 USN F-14 vs. IRAF Mi-8
A USN F-14 shoots down an IRAF Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile. It is the last USN F-14 air-to-air kill
11 Feb 1991 USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF helicopters
Two F-15Cs shoot down two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles for both.
14 Feb 1991 USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500
An F-15E Strike Eagle fighter/bomber dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. The helicopter was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the laser on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air.
15 Feb 1991 USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8
An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.
In 1978, a Soviet Mig-23 Flogger intercepted 4 Iranian CH-47 Chinook helicopters inside Soviet airspace, shooting one of them down and damaging another.
In 1988, two Soviet Mig-23 Floggers shot down a pair of Iranian AH-1J Super Cobra attack helicopters over western Afghanistan.
On 7 January 1992, an Italian Army Bell 206 helicopter was shot down by a Serbian MiG in Croatia.
Oh, and even with less capable weapons there have been plenty of FJ vs Helo kills:
6 Feb 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Bo-105
A USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.
7 Feb 1991 USN F-14 vs. IRAF Mi-8
A USN F-14 shoots down an IRAF Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile. It is the last USN F-14 air-to-air kill
11 Feb 1991 USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF helicopters
Two F-15Cs shoot down two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles for both.
14 Feb 1991 USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500
An F-15E Strike Eagle fighter/bomber dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. The helicopter was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the laser on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air.
15 Feb 1991 USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8
An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.
In 1978, a Soviet Mig-23 Flogger intercepted 4 Iranian CH-47 Chinook helicopters inside Soviet airspace, shooting one of them down and damaging another.
In 1988, two Soviet Mig-23 Floggers shot down a pair of Iranian AH-1J Super Cobra attack helicopters over western Afghanistan.
On 7 January 1992, an Italian Army Bell 206 helicopter was shot down by a Serbian MiG in Croatia.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As BEagle said, just blast through. Played with an F4, similar radar freak to a Firebar. Got him tied up in knots, low speed high G. Eventually he got fed up, bugged out, 20 miles and back in Warp 6, never saw him.
Beags,
Your QWI was talking utter boll*cks....
Your QWI was talking utter boll*cks....
Wow, are you really sure you want to use a tragic friendly fire incident where the AWACS crew sat on their asses negligently, where the F-15 drivers with their fangs out broke procedures, misidentified the Black Hawks and engaged improperly and unleashed an AMRAAM and AIM-9 on the un suspecting and un-maneuvering helo's (the second tried to avoid after the other helo was blasted out of the sky) as an opportunity to degenerate those lost and all other Black Hawk pilots (in your experience?). The poor souls on the Black Hawks didn't stand a chance- unlike the "FJ vs helo dogfight" most are addressing here.
Hmm. 450ish knot low (10') pass over the rotor with 5g on did the trick. He thought that the tail rotor had failed and ended up in a ball on the side of the hill over which he was knapp-of-the-earthing. Number 2 was A109A fitted with guns and rockets. He tried to run for the hills and took some 30mm HE in the fuel tank. I agree that if he had started squirting back at me I would have been more circumspect. Would never have been able to go into a bar ever again if he had got me! Number 3 was landed-on and de-planing rapidly when he took my last 30mm round in the tail pylon.
The BIG mistake these guys made was to fly over an inlet at V low level and I spotted the snail-trail from 8000'. Amazingly, no one died!
The BIG mistake these guys made was to fly over an inlet at V low level and I spotted the snail-trail from 8000'. Amazingly, no one died!
Mogwi,
Yep - but he hadn't a clue you were there, you stayed Tally the whole way in and he was massively overloaded without sufficient power to recover from any form of harsh manoeuvre - which is probably why he tried to go straight across Shag Cove in the first place. There's always an exception to every rule...You proved that rule one applies - the unseen bandit will kill you.
Yep - but he hadn't a clue you were there, you stayed Tally the whole way in and he was massively overloaded without sufficient power to recover from any form of harsh manoeuvre - which is probably why he tried to go straight across Shag Cove in the first place. There's always an exception to every rule...You proved that rule one applies - the unseen bandit will kill you.
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But it was what was taught to the FJ fraternity in those days.
Over the past 25 years we have improved somewhat and have thought more about the challenge. After the Cold War each conflict has posed it's own problems. Being able to detect, police, shadow or engage a modern helo should be something that every combat ready fighter pilot is capable of achieving.
Unfortunately, due to dilution and risk adversion some may find the challenge too much. The is no doubt that 2v2 fighter/helo affil low level overland lights out is high tariff but very satisfying when done well.
Mogwi,
Yep - but he hadn't a clue you were there, you stayed Tally the whole way in and he was massively overloaded without sufficient power to recover from any form of harsh manoeuvre - which is probably why he tried to go straight across Shag Cove in the first place. There's always an exception to every rule...You proved that rule one applies - the unseen bandit will kill you.
Yep - but he hadn't a clue you were there, you stayed Tally the whole way in and he was massively overloaded without sufficient power to recover from any form of harsh manoeuvre - which is probably why he tried to go straight across Shag Cove in the first place. There's always an exception to every rule...You proved that rule one applies - the unseen bandit will kill you.
But I concur with your final point. I always taught that it doesn't matter how good you are, the newest sprog will smoke you if you don't see him coming. That is why lookout and crew coordination is critical for a helo in a hostile environment.
Mog
CRV7?! A-A?! That's a new one. Assuming the FJ ever closed for guns (let's remember when you see a Puma and a Typhoon playing in this fashion its not really representative of what a Typhoon would do for real) then the Apache would have to turn and face the FJ and carefully aim it's one shot at a highly agile FJ. What odds would you give on that being successful?
I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.
BV
I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.
BV
As much as I'm enjoying all the CRV7 related musings I would very much like it if an Apache pilot, who has fired CRV7 and performed fighter affil' could give their opinion.
If they tell me I'm talking cr@p I will happily desist.
Until then I maintain that, whilst it would focus the mind a little, the chances of an Apache loosing off CRV7 in anything like an accurate delivery without making himself an easy target are very slim.
BV
If they tell me I'm talking cr@p I will happily desist.
Until then I maintain that, whilst it would focus the mind a little, the chances of an Apache loosing off CRV7 in anything like an accurate delivery without making himself an easy target are very slim.
BV
BV may care to read this link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH
OTOH I also found this:
Helicopters are like fish in a barrel. And that's not always a good thing, as shown in the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, where a pair of F-15Cs dropped two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks, mistaking them for Iraqi Hinds that were violating the No-Fly Zone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH
OTOH I also found this:
Helicopters are like fish in a barrel. And that's not always a good thing, as shown in the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, where a pair of F-15Cs dropped two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks, mistaking them for Iraqi Hinds that were violating the No-Fly Zone.
As much as I'm enjoying all the CRV7 related musings I would very much like it if an Apache pilot, who has fired CRV7 and performed fighter affil' could give their opinion.
If they tell me I'm talking cr@p I will happily desist.
Until then I maintain that, whilst it would focus the mind a little, the chances of an Apache loosing off CRV7 in anything like an accurate delivery without making himself an easy target are very slim.
BV
If they tell me I'm talking cr@p I will happily desist.
Until then I maintain that, whilst it would focus the mind a little, the chances of an Apache loosing off CRV7 in anything like an accurate delivery without making himself an easy target are very slim.
BV
As a defensive measure, GPF would be my tactic, If I hit him - bonus, if not, it would still make him think twice. As I said, getting the solution would be tricky. Gun is an option but is fitted with the intention of firing down or at least level, not firing up, again, the solution would be tricky. The point is, as soon as an Apache is pointing at you, you are under threat. He can see behind him so knows if you are sneaking in for a rear shot, can see what your flight path is and manoeuvre accordingly. Meanwhile, laser slaved to target that is auto-locked on, a face full of Class IV would provide a further distraction. Look for an easier target.
Q. Why do you want to know how to take out an Apache? Last time I checked, we were allies (only to a degree in some cases) with all that types current operators. It may surprise you to learn that we don't practice how to take out Typhoon, despite inter-service rivalry, we are all on the same side.