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Two Typhoons chasing a Puma

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Two Typhoons chasing a Puma

Old 17th Aug 2017, 17:35
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Two Typhoons chasing a Puma

I noticed a NOTAM this morning advising of fast jet intercepts in the locality of my strip and thought nothing more about it until later in the day I heard what was obviously a pair of Typhoons chasing each other around the sky which is very normal for this area.

Then I heard the sound of an eggbeater in among the cacophony of sound and on going outside watched the two Typhoons chasing the Puma which was maneuvering quite vigorously at low level.

I'd previously observed a similar scenario being played out in 2012 between two Typhoons and a Merlin, in the run up to the London Olympics and can only surmise this was another exercise to see if the Typhoon is a match against a low level, slow speed target.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the object of this exercise which appeared to follow the same pattern as the one in 2012 and with a similar outcome i.e Typhoons 0 Puma 1.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:16
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I reckon you have answered your own question in line three....
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:22
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If that is the case then I'm surprised that there is a need to re-run an exercise that previously proved that the Typhoon was inadequate in this role.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:43
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Actually they were re-running the exercise with Typhoons as the Hurris and Spits are temporarily grounded,as that might be a fairer fight....
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:55
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Maybe it's the Puma crew under training and they've started with the Typhoons to give them some confidence.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 19:01
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Pretty normal heli vs FJ training for the benefit of both sides.

Have done Puma vs Lightning and Sea King vs Tornado in the past. ZD notch anyone?

Once the helo makes itself obvious to the FJ then it is a question of the FJ trying to get a guns or missile solution on the helo and the helo trying to avoid both.

1 vs 1 it is usually the helo that succeeds in frustrating the FJ but with 2 FJ on one helo the odds very much go the other way.

Bear in mind this is an unarmed helo - save for perhaps a GPMG or M3M, it would be a very different exercise against an Apache.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 19:16
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When flying a Puma on fighter affiliation one has to be careful not to drag the fighter into the ground.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 19:42
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When flying a Puma on fighter affiliation one has to be careful not to drag the fighter into the ground.
Set the floor, a kill is a kill....
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 20:12
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Crab.

Exactly which A-A weapons would the Apache use to shoot the Typhoon? As awesome as the Apache is I don't think it's weapons would be of much use in that situation. I'd be more worried about a door or tail gunner with a GPMG!

BV
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 20:13
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I think fast jet Vs low slow targets (especially Helicopters) is ultimately a game of cat and mouse against the clock- hide and seek.

The clock is ticking as a Fast Jet will be burning a LOT of fuel high energy manoeuvring down low trying to get weapons away, that doesn't include the fuel used looking for them in the first place or after they lose sight of them whilst fighting!

Mr Vice.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 20:23
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Exactly which A-A weapons would the Apache use to shoot the Typhoon?
I'd have thought the 30mm gun with helmet mounted sight might substitute adequately for a door gunner...
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 20:23
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
Crab.

Exactly which A-A weapons would the Apache use to shoot the Typhoon? As awesome as the Apache is I don't think it's weapons would be of much use in that situation. I'd be more worried about a door or tail gunner with a GPMG!

BV
I would imagine the manually aimed main gun could he quite annoying even if lock and lead isn't a supported function.

Apache has also been armed with air launched stingers on the tip position of the stub wings - two per side.

I also remember seeing a picture of an Israeli Apache with their short range air to air missile (python?)
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 20:37
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I am aware of the nature of the Apache gun but how is a mostly forward firing weapon going to be of use? Even with one guy flying and one guy aiming (if that is how it would be employed) it would need to either fly backwards or hover. Neither would be a great tactic against a marauding FJ.

If it has genuinely been fitted with A-A weapons that is news to me and I stand to be corrected. However I'm still not convinced.

BV
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 20:46
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A little research shows me Apache has been fitted with Stingers in trials. Designed to shoot down helicopters.

Still not convinced.

BV
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 20:59
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BV may care to read this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

OTOH I also found this:

Helicopters are like fish in a barrel. And that's not always a good thing, as shown in the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, where a pair of F-15Cs dropped two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks, mistaking them for Iraqi Hinds that were violating the No-Fly Zone.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 21:08
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it would need to either fly backwards or hover.
Or just turn and face the on coming jet.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 21:19
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...which will helpfully hold fire until he is close enough to get shot in the face by the Apache gun.

BV (am I allowed to use the roll eyes emoji or has that been done too much already?!)
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 21:19
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Know nothing of the British Apaches, are they equipped to carry the AIM -9?
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 21:21
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For those not in the know, it is not shooting fish in a barrel when its FJ vs RW, especially if the heli crew are trained. Without divulging tactics on a public forum, the slow mover can actually have a big advantage over a FJ.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 21:22
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Pontius.

A fascinating read. May I highlight a couple of points?

The concluding phase of that trial took place in 1979. Things may have moved on slightly since then.

Sorry to be facetious.

BV
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