EK Commanders Conference

[EGGW]

Don't think so Tornspar, meetings held in old Aeroplane building.

Some of the meeting was confidential, and fair enough on that front. What TCAS said in his presentation made a lot of sense, apparently he doesn't read Pprune though, sure Alan, sure.... Like the time you asked a buddy of mine if he was a certain poster...

I think they have a lot of limitations from above like we all know, but ask questions, lots did in the meeting I attended. Some meetings have been quite lively apparently

EGGW

[jinglied]

..Maybe they're taking notes on the attendees. Those that make too much noise get the Cathay treatment. I would not be surprised with anything this management did from here on in. What would it matter to them if 20, 30, or 49 guys were given walking papers? They could defend it...."Behaviour inconsistent with an Emirates Captain"...

Sit down, shut up, and leave those pric.ks alone in their little hole.

Jinglie'd

[Watchdog]

actually, I thought it was a worthwhile couple of hours. The presenters seemed to lay the cards on the table (albiet keeping some aces hidden) and appeared genuinely receptive to our comments. No one was taking notes about anybody (I looked for the hidden camera too)

Times are tough though....no tea and bikkies afterward!

[nolimitholdem]

Give 'em hell SS! I think jinglied is simply expressing a (rightfully) cynical point of view, not advocating burying the head. I'm all for going down fighting...but these cowards don't operate by conventional rules. It's all about sneaky, ass-covering, hiding behind carefully timed and worded memos and emails and FCI's and unreturned calls and deflected responsibility. That's why morale is in the toilet and there is zero respect for the "leaders"...they aren't leading, they're panicking. The current economic climate is exposing their true lack of leadership ability and like something that lives under a rock that's been lifted they're scuttling about to avoid getting the boot heel. (Laminated "Uniform Standards" card, anyone?!) It's both astonishing and painful to observe.

Meanwhile the troops soldier on, taking casualties while those in higher ranks blithely escape any sort of accountability. Thus was it ever in any army.

I think my favourite "soundbite" from one of these meetings was when TCAS was asked "So when are YOU going to get sacked?". He didn't answer.

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

When is someone going to do us all a huge favor and sack that old talking horse/Overpaid secretary? I and so many others are so sick of all his h.s. It will do wonders for the morale around here!

[Panther 88]

Ah, Mr. Easy, be careful what you wish. In the case around here, the devil you know and all that......I can think of a number of individuals around here that seem to be waiting in the wings, and from my perspective, I will take the end of the talking horse that is speaking to another individual that could be the other end of the horse that "stuff" is emitting. He is at the end of his career and has nothing more to prove, whereas do you really want someone in there that is "career building". And how does one career build when trying to please those that are in charge of one's career in flt. ops.? Think about it for a minute.

[wizard1]

It is wrong to focus on TCAS and the Horse as the source of our woes. They are hardly empowered to do anything. The real rotten apple in the cart is AAR. An almost criminal lack of knowledge combined with a vengeful and infantile attitude have resulted in a micromanagerial style that beggars belief. I know for a fact that he was personally on the phone to the engineer that grounded EDA (A380) when the bridge dropped on to it within minutes and the content of that call was typical of the nonsense that goes on. The max 12 days off rule came directly from him as a result of not being able to crew 2 short notice ad hoc charters. Never one to consider that by totally disrupting the schedulers work pattern (6 x 8 hrs instead of 4 x 12 hrs) he might have removed motivation of said scheduling crew the easiest solution is to apply a blanket rule to all us 2300 lazy pilots. etc etc etc Unless he goes there is no hope whatsoever of regaining any sort of trust between the management and flightcrew. There goes a flying pig (swine flew!)

[EK_Bus Driver]

The Lunatics are definitely running the Asylum!

Wizard you are 100% correct.

The other day A.A.R. actually graced us with his presence towards the end of the meeting and muttered something largely un intelligible and completely undid any good that TCAS, E.D. and M.M. might have achieved in 1 hour and 40 minutes (only took him about 1 minute to do so) but along the lines of:

“guys, you are here to work, why I should let you live in UK or US or Australia. If a guy wants the time and says give me this day and that day, and give me this trip and that one, why I should give?”

...and then proceeded to lose us completely in some other rant about time and company cost/expense?? However, the cringing and the obvious body language that TCAS displayed were absolutely PRICELESS! Almost worth while attending. Everyone was watching TCAS not listening to “Idle”.

I would have to disagree on the point that was made earlier about the efficacy of the meeting. Some relevant and well structured questions were asked by most of the attendees, TCAS said in his opening address that he wants us to “work with him” but both he and E.D. dismissed F.D.L. / Fatigue and Morale issues quite vigorously. It was quite obvious they are in complete DENIAL (probably directed from above?). After that the questions dried up and the rest of the meeting was a lecture, the main point we all took home was; that we are over stocked with Pilots and the “Zero tolerance policy is in effect”.

Safe Flying to all.

Nothing will change until the “Idle” factor is removed.

[Fart Master]

2 very good posts that I think sum up the flt ops mis-management situation in a nutshell.

Al Retard is definately the root of the problem, but the spineless pratts below him do nothing to alleviate the situation.

I heard recently that one of the Capt. complained to Ed the Donkey about there being no water at DSO for two days, the reply he got was "I don't give a sh*t".

They are all part of the same error chain.

[145qrh]

Yup , sat there like at a nodding dog during the one I attended too, shame was looking forward to him place both feet in his mouth at the same time,

MM is bit of a gob**ite, talks a good game, bigs himself up a plenty...

At least they announced that all the f/o's will be summoned soon, share the pain indeed..

[RFusmoke]

EK Meetings and CRM

Commanders conf.......how to be a Capt in ek........

"Remember all that stuff we thought you about crm?forget it your no good at it..... be nasty again like I am now and like it used to be in the old company.....what are they called again.... oh yes The Bird Seed " .........so now show leadership as it hasnt been shown before....... all this from listening to guys talking about Churchill to Tiger Woods.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously a couple of things shone out and are worth taking note of.All of the mentioned incidents allegedly happened over the last 6 weeks by now.

Q s Was the alleged Rape/sexual assault in KL confirmed in any way or was it just as MM said/will say.ie~ "I am very very angry about what had happened" But no one asked was it confirmed just that the guy was GONe......?And if it was confirmed what is the legal situation on this case ????? there was no mention of the word allegedly.......(except by me)


I m not trying to be controversial But was there a investigation by Police and Company before they let this guy go or was there an investigation medically or otherwise on CC involved??
Q What happened to the guys in Manc and Mel???were they fired/resigned/let go??

A We know but let them skirm while not telling you

Q You guys have not mentioned Fatigue or being tired in any of these incidents...do you believe this to be the case?

A more slipping.

Like Air bus driver there were very valid points brought up but none were answered....there is no fatigue in EK .....and we are lucky to be living and working in Dubai...AAR you really are not connected!!!!

[mensaboy]

The Commanders Conference. (CC)

Apologies for the length but this is my overview and 'personal' opinion of the CC.

First off, the participants. MM from the training department might just have a positive affect on training and hence flight safety. TCAS is more intelligent than most people give him credit for, yet he obviously slanted his arguments and opinions to fit into the rational of his superiors. AAR has convoluted and illogical thought processes and he could potentially bring down this airline. We should all have an appreciation for how difficult it must be to deal with him on a daily basis partly because he views all EK employees as subservient and lucky to be in Dubai.

Ed is stuck between a rock and a hard place and he is not equipped to effectively deal with things. He was programmed to intercede whenever certain aspects of the operation were mentioned, but his reponses turned into mini-speeches with no relevance. He appeared more concerned about being a dutiful employee to HIS bosses sitting around the table, than actually formulating a coherent and relevant answer.

Overall the CC was eye-opening. There was an overiding theme about how commanders must take a more proactive role in leadership, take responsibility and not only PERFORM accordingly but be PERCEIVED in such a manner. TCAS effectively communicated these areas of concern and it was well received by the pilots in attendance. The pilots acknowledged certain recent errors in judgement but management refused to take ANY responsibility for policies and practices which might contribute to someone momentarily performing below their normal standard.

TCAS went to great lengths expressing how this profession is one of the best in the world and much is expected from us, but none of the managers accepted the logic that massive deteriorations in job conditions COULD have a detrimental affect on a pilot. On the one hand they agreed that a pilot undergoing certain stresses should not be commanding an aircraft, yet other stresses such as max off days, accomodations, overtime, fatigue and especially rostering practices, are not a part of an EK pilot's life; therefore they cannot be a casual factor. Anything which might be detrimental to a pilot's performance ( if caused by mismanagement) should be overcome by our high level of professionalism.

1) No policy or practice at EK is detrimental to pilots.
2) we should consider the plight of other pilots around the world and be thankful to have this job.

Up to a point they argued that morale at EK was fine but after a few more pointed questions and comments, they seemed to acknowledge the 'frame of mind' of the pilot group. This is what brought about their argument that professional pilots should be able to overcome these problems and perform our duties at a high level, regardless of stresses caused by the company.

What they would not consider, is that none of the recent flying errors, were willfull or typical of the pilot's normal standard of performance. In other words, those guys thought they were doing their best but they screwed up for some reason. Not following SOP's was a theme and likely a contributor to some errors in judgement, which is a fair assessment. But it was so obvious that blame was placed on the pilots in every single one of their 5 examples, before even the facts were determined.
What of the underlying causes, even if mistakes were made? Morale, fatigue and idiotic rostering practices were taboo subjects, especially if someone questioned if there was a LINK to recent events. Ed jumped in at the mere mention of these topics, which was comical after a while. These potential causes are being ignored because it directly involves delving into management practices, which clearly they are unwilling to do. Discussion of these factors was cut short which made it clear they are not considering them as casual factors. They have come up with an alternative explanation.

TCAS and M attribute the recent spat of misjudgements to the years that EK has gone without an accident. They expressed how it is common for an airline with a good safety record to go thru a period of complacency.... hence the CC's were arranged to prevent a major mishap by addressing the issue now. They acknowledged that EK got lucky in Melbourne and it should be a wake-up call to the pilot group. (not to management though) The CC would have been a hell of alot more effective if they took a good look in the mirror and acknowledged their role in recent events. Somehow, the Johanessburg accident has been selectively removed from the conscience of management (probably because it was not BIG NEWS, like the Melbourne accident.) Management did not address issues behind poor judgement, such as fatigue, continual erosion of T&C's and rostering practices because it points the finger directly at them.

Our management team has selected two explanations for recent events
1- a good safety record resulting in complacency and
2- a lack of professionalism on the part of some pilots.
There might be some truth to the above but rarely have I witnessed such blatant ass-covering, which was revealed by their refusal to even consider other possibilities, especially if it reflected poorly on them.

The CC should be the beginning of an introspective look at the operation, not just a momentary tool to reduce the occurence of more 'events' .

What needs to be fixed is the overall sustainable level of pilot performance. Our managers demand each pilot's daily standard to remain high but they are unwilling to provide the environment to achieve this goal. The 2 areas that the CC addressed were improvements in training and the professionalism that pilots exercise on a daily basis. The one area that was not addressed, even though it is the most concerning, is T&C's/Fatigue/Rostering because it affects every aspect of a pilots life and therefore it must have an effect on a person's professional life. Unfortunately-- and predictably-- this last area is not even being considered, which was made abundantly clear by the 4 managers declaring that these issues are not even a concern.

Our managers should be able to understand there are issues which preclude all pilots from sustaining a high level of professionalism on each and every flight. Unfortunately, they refuse to acknowledge the reality and it makes you wonder why? Have they honestly convinced themselves that the pilots just need is a good kick in the pants? Or are they under such intense pressure from above, that they are willing to roll the dice and make some short term changes for the better... but no long term changes to the areas of most concern? If you see AAR in action, you will understand how difficult things are for these guys. It still does not excuse them ignoring possible causal factors simply because their boss refuses to accept reality.

The hidden principle is to give the perception of positive changes but not to make any substantive change if it costs money.

EK's management is now at a cross-roads and they have unfortunately chosen the same path taken by most companies and the government of Dubai. Schmooze things over, place all of the blame on subordinates and most importantly, give the PERCEPTION that issues are being addressed. The truth is, nothing is being done to fix problems if it hints at responsibility being placed on management or it costs money. It is a thin veneer, when scratched will reveal the systemic and underlying problems.

As a pilot group we can accept full responsibility for recent events and hope for the best in the future, or we can accept partial responsibility and continue to voice our concerns to management. After the CC, it was obvious that no manager is willing to, or perhaps even capable of, hearing and then understanding any issue which might reflect poorly on them. The explanation of the 'max days off' policy was the perfect example of why every single concern expressed by pilots, will never be considered.

TCAS went to great lengths explaining the importance of our professionalism and leadership, but by the end of the 2 hours it was disheartening to listen to them blame everything on the pilot group. I bet each and every pilot who got fired, demoted or is now under 'investigation' for some indiscretion, believed they were immune to the effects of having management who have no regard for our well-being, but after the CC it is more likely that most of us now feel differently. Recent events should have enlightened us but the CC definitely proved we are all at risk. Our managers displayed a contempt for pilots, even though they did their best to hide that truth. No doubt this attitude originates from one individual. Contrary to managements belief, the only thing holding this operation together, IS the pilot group.

The theme of the CC was......... we need you pilots, you are vital to the operation, everything hinges on your professionalism........ but we will do nothing to help you in those endeavours. So stop bringing up issues relevant to your performance, get back to work and be thankful that Dubai and EK have been so gracious to accomodate you.

There was some good information passed on but overall it was extremely disappointing. At least now, we should all realize exactly where we stand.

[Saltaire]

My experience and account would be very similar to Mensa, a very good and accurate post. Working with AAR would be an exercise in frustration and disbelief. I heard him rant once during a visit to the office while some poor indian secretary tried to dictate his "letter". To a degree, i sympathize with TCAS, ED and M, trying to do their jobs effectively but are handicapped from above.

[Panther 88]

Mensa,
For once, you have said all there needs to be said. Excellent recap of what every meeting has been like (from different sources). No one could explain it and analyse it more accurately than the above. And to you Fart Master, if you think that story rings of any truth and you believe it, you're moniker really does fit you nicely. Even if any manager was thinking that, it would never be said, especially in public.

[Thylakoid]

TheStar.com | World | Co-pilot in Buffalo crash earned $16,254 a year

[RFusmoke]

Thanks for the info EkL and also to Mensaboy for a well structured synopsis....

Guys pls look at posts 101 from me and 103 from EkLawyer.....

Can anyone who has been at the meeting or who is going,speak up on this one and find out if this is the case ?????I was dumbfounded at the meeting in the way MM was so categorical in his lack of support for this Flightcrew and his guilty before proven attitude that it only struck me that evening while dissecting the whole "experience" over a bevvy...I was also while in the meeting trying to get the spineless to admit that they might have something to do with these incidents !!!!!!

If it s came up previously or if you get to stop them on this point and attempt to extract the info pls do let us know .

Thanks

[Fart Master]

Actually Panther, without giving too much away, I know it happened, and it wasn't said in public, it was said in private to one of the pilots

Bit confused about the moniker bit..... fart master.....mr ed...comments made.... nope, still don't get it

[5star]

Mens. and RF, thanks for sharing.

This whole thing makes me think of GF management and the way they handled the aftermath of their A320 crash. It took them a few years to change from fear-approach to real people-management approach. Things are much better now I hear at GF but unfortunately they have a more concerning problem in another area : they miss EK's commercial brains.

As in GF, Ek's way of handling this mini-crisis it is a culture thing and a few high shots (mostly arabs) are again to blame. Give them a couple of years and they will learn from their mistakes....

Fly safe and keep those head down. There is not a lot we can do...

[prideflyer]

things are not the same...

anymore in Dubailand! Show is over, boys, grab your last coins and jump ship this crap before it's too late!

[helen-damnation]

Don't let the door hit you on the arse on your way out

jump ship

Which implies you have another ship to go to that isn't sinking.

Please enlighten us