EK Commanders Conference
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Matrix.
Age: 54
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'Oz in dxb' is spot on.Dictating when and where to eat is unacceptable especially considering that your entire crew could have done a ULR,night turnarounds in a row etc... just 2 days before operating to LOS or HKG with their body clock still in a spin.ASRs with strong emphasis on the fatigue issue may eventually get the GCAA's attention,but will probably take a while like in the previous MRU ( 17 hr ) layover case.Alternatively,falling asleep while eating in the restaurant,getting your ear skewered by your fork or burnt by hot coffee resulting in outstation medical costs or unfit to fly will probably get their attention too 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dunesville
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Somehow through these 'conferences' I hope that the message finally gets through, and strong enough to get past TCAS and AAR, that the way we are being managed is not effective and complicit in any incidents we have.
It is a matter of perspective;
From our point of view (the ones on the line doing the job, rostered to the max, with numerous changes from FCI to FCN to FTN, on such a diverse network dealing with many different cultures, dealing with a multitude of different approaches ILS,NPA,Circling,PRM,SAAAR, on SR, LR and ULR flights), that somehow our skill, experience, CRM etc has managed to keep things as safe as they can possibly be.
From the management point of view (who do not currently fly, have never flown our type of operations to as many places so frequently with such a diverse compliment of crew) 'they' cannot understand why we hold them in such low esteem and they do not understand why serious incidents are continuing to happen.
And their reaction to these incidents? More of the same; more control, more 'training', more micromanaging interference leading to even more pressure on the line demanding more from our ability to cope.
To resolve this negative model from spiraling even further down into the hole that we all must work together to prevent, management have to look at the fundamental problems of the way they manage. This has to go above TCAS and AAR. They are the the ones responsible for the current situation and are the ones preventing any real effective change from taking place. They are either keeping a lid on the problems to save their own a*ses or unable to deal with those above them, those who are the only ones who can actually make change happen.
TCAS and AAR are responsible in my opinion for setting the current low tone of management. They are the face, two faces of management we have. But whilst they are responsible we alone will be held to account when things go wrong.
I hope something positive comes from these conferences but, as in previous meetings, we should be prepared to keep our expectations low as the disappointment is usually high.
It is a matter of perspective;
From our point of view (the ones on the line doing the job, rostered to the max, with numerous changes from FCI to FCN to FTN, on such a diverse network dealing with many different cultures, dealing with a multitude of different approaches ILS,NPA,Circling,PRM,SAAAR, on SR, LR and ULR flights), that somehow our skill, experience, CRM etc has managed to keep things as safe as they can possibly be.
From the management point of view (who do not currently fly, have never flown our type of operations to as many places so frequently with such a diverse compliment of crew) 'they' cannot understand why we hold them in such low esteem and they do not understand why serious incidents are continuing to happen.
And their reaction to these incidents? More of the same; more control, more 'training', more micromanaging interference leading to even more pressure on the line demanding more from our ability to cope.
To resolve this negative model from spiraling even further down into the hole that we all must work together to prevent, management have to look at the fundamental problems of the way they manage. This has to go above TCAS and AAR. They are the the ones responsible for the current situation and are the ones preventing any real effective change from taking place. They are either keeping a lid on the problems to save their own a*ses or unable to deal with those above them, those who are the only ones who can actually make change happen.
TCAS and AAR are responsible in my opinion for setting the current low tone of management. They are the face, two faces of management we have. But whilst they are responsible we alone will be held to account when things go wrong.
I hope something positive comes from these conferences but, as in previous meetings, we should be prepared to keep our expectations low as the disappointment is usually high.
Last edited by Marooned; 24th Apr 2009 at 14:08.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: gutter
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is anyone going to ask about Honest E's "Sooper dooper git-r-dun ppc/trainin(checkin) 2 or 1 day special!" ? If they are serious about training, then do it, dont shove Penesys up our gritter's and use that as an excuse.
How about Honest E's 12 day off monthly specials.... I would just like to hear him explain how you combine productivity( ulr hrs) with number of days off without fingering the crs system.
Just be honest and tell us to our face that the slight discomfort we feel is your fist. I am bringing tea and biscuits!
How about Honest E's 12 day off monthly specials.... I would just like to hear him explain how you combine productivity( ulr hrs) with number of days off without fingering the crs system.
Just be honest and tell us to our face that the slight discomfort we feel is your fist. I am bringing tea and biscuits!
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: berks
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not fly for Emireates but have friends who do and am worried by their concerns regarding fatigue and morale issues within the airline. I had respect for AS in his previous life with big airways , he was approachable and read the gospel of openness and learning from others mistakes, I am sorry to say it appears he has become just a yes man to those in real power who do not know the front from the back end of an aircraft.
The strict adherence to SOP's appears to be the invitation and opportunity the guys have been awaiting for a work to rule. Why would anyone extend ,when at the end of a long extended duty you might make a fatigue enduced error which will end in your sacking? why taxy above walking speed ? etc , basically why not make yourself fireproof. It's a frustrating way to operate but appears to me to be the only weapon available to you
Perhaps as schedules slip they may realise that the big stick dosen't always work and dish out a few carrots
The strict adherence to SOP's appears to be the invitation and opportunity the guys have been awaiting for a work to rule. Why would anyone extend ,when at the end of a long extended duty you might make a fatigue enduced error which will end in your sacking? why taxy above walking speed ? etc , basically why not make yourself fireproof. It's a frustrating way to operate but appears to me to be the only weapon available to you
Perhaps as schedules slip they may realise that the big stick dosen't always work and dish out a few carrots
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On tonights Channel Nine news here in Victoria the editor of the Sunday Herald, (tabloid) said they were going to reveal all about the A340 tail scrape tomorrow as the captain had told them he had had no proper rest in the preceeding 24 hours. If it is just a comment the skipper made in passing then there won't be much more but if he has sold them a story about Emirates it could be interesting.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In Fresh Air
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Parabellum,
We hope you will report back on the content of the segment. You see, it has been so easy (thus far) for EK to "fix" the problem. "We got rid of our "bad" pilots, and obviously the captain wasn't excersizing his command authority by flying fatigued. It states plainly in our FOM.....blah, blah, blah" See problem solved and in fact more SOPs so "bad" pilots can be forced into our little box.
And remember our little briefing packages...."Captain, you are clearly at fault, it stated plainly on page 58 of 72 pages line 37 that (insert issue here).........You are clearly an irresponsible pilot." See once again we have fixed any problems we might have.
NEXT?
We hope you will report back on the content of the segment. You see, it has been so easy (thus far) for EK to "fix" the problem. "We got rid of our "bad" pilots, and obviously the captain wasn't excersizing his command authority by flying fatigued. It states plainly in our FOM.....blah, blah, blah" See problem solved and in fact more SOPs so "bad" pilots can be forced into our little box.
And remember our little briefing packages...."Captain, you are clearly at fault, it stated plainly on page 58 of 72 pages line 37 that (insert issue here).........You are clearly an irresponsible pilot." See once again we have fixed any problems we might have.
NEXT?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have a read here, it is also running in the threads in Rumours and News and on this forum too.
Emirates probed on tired pilots | Herald Sun
Emirates probed on tired pilots | Herald Sun
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hilton, Sheraton or Marriott
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reasonably factual except for the crud about the reduced thrust takeoffs - industry standard and manufacturer endorsed practice. As long as the procedure is correctly applied.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Backabeyond
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately, I am really battling to see that these 'Conferences' have any real value whatsoever. I believe it is all one big ass-covering exercise on their part. They can state that it is an open forum for a frank exchange of views but I believe that is bollocks.
They are completely aware of the nature of our grievances, given that they are the cause, or at least the conduit from above. If they are not aware, then they are completely useless managers with their heads stuck firmly in the sand and no grasp of the realities faced by their staff. If they are so useless, then explaining the facts of life to them will be of no benefit, cos what are they gonna do anyway, having already shown their willingness to fire first and not bother to ask questions afterwards.
If they are not that useless, then they are aware of our grievances. Why have they not done anything about them? What good does it do to stand in front of us, pretending to listen and to give a toss? It makes them appear to be effective managers, getting to the issues. With their stated objective of ridding the company of the bad apples in the barrel, it also gives them the opportunity to identify trouble-makers in the group. The potential rabble-rousers. You will have to rely on the objectivity of these managers to decide who has a valid point and who is trying to criticize and undermine them. I don't believe they like criticism too much.
They have made it clear that the culture they wish to follow is a punitive one. Make a mistake, even an honest one, and you are gone. Now, why would anyone want to raise any issues, poke his head above the trench parapet and hope noone takes a shot?
TCAS and ED have allowed themselves to be used from above and there is no going back for them. They cannot reclaim their virginity. They have lost their moral status and, as such, are not to be trusted.
Their policies and archaic management style, forced on them from above, have led us to where we are now. They are now frantically shovelling the crap downhill, hoping that as little as possible will stick to them. Explaining to them what the problem is, is a complete waste of time. They know. What they're actually going to do about it is another matter.
We must never forget that their interests and ours are very different. They have had their careers and are topping up the retirement fund with a lucrative little pre-retirement gig. Every year they manage to hang onto their positions earns them a nice bonus. So they do it, whatever the cost. But if they lose their jobs, they lose a couple more years of bonuses and maybe that second beach house they have their eye on. Many of us were here for the career. Potentially for decades. If we are fired now, under the draconian zero tolerance polices, we will probably battle to find another flying job. It could mean decades of lost earnings and an enforced career change. Who has the most at stake? And who should be standing up for what is right?
They are completely aware of the nature of our grievances, given that they are the cause, or at least the conduit from above. If they are not aware, then they are completely useless managers with their heads stuck firmly in the sand and no grasp of the realities faced by their staff. If they are so useless, then explaining the facts of life to them will be of no benefit, cos what are they gonna do anyway, having already shown their willingness to fire first and not bother to ask questions afterwards.
If they are not that useless, then they are aware of our grievances. Why have they not done anything about them? What good does it do to stand in front of us, pretending to listen and to give a toss? It makes them appear to be effective managers, getting to the issues. With their stated objective of ridding the company of the bad apples in the barrel, it also gives them the opportunity to identify trouble-makers in the group. The potential rabble-rousers. You will have to rely on the objectivity of these managers to decide who has a valid point and who is trying to criticize and undermine them. I don't believe they like criticism too much.
They have made it clear that the culture they wish to follow is a punitive one. Make a mistake, even an honest one, and you are gone. Now, why would anyone want to raise any issues, poke his head above the trench parapet and hope noone takes a shot?
TCAS and ED have allowed themselves to be used from above and there is no going back for them. They cannot reclaim their virginity. They have lost their moral status and, as such, are not to be trusted.
Their policies and archaic management style, forced on them from above, have led us to where we are now. They are now frantically shovelling the crap downhill, hoping that as little as possible will stick to them. Explaining to them what the problem is, is a complete waste of time. They know. What they're actually going to do about it is another matter.
We must never forget that their interests and ours are very different. They have had their careers and are topping up the retirement fund with a lucrative little pre-retirement gig. Every year they manage to hang onto their positions earns them a nice bonus. So they do it, whatever the cost. But if they lose their jobs, they lose a couple more years of bonuses and maybe that second beach house they have their eye on. Many of us were here for the career. Potentially for decades. If we are fired now, under the draconian zero tolerance polices, we will probably battle to find another flying job. It could mean decades of lost earnings and an enforced career change. Who has the most at stake? And who should be standing up for what is right?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Age: 62
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trying to Get to the bottom of things
I heard that 5 EK Captains had a meeting with Shk Ahmed about the lack of communication between the pilots and management. This would explain a lot, can anyone confirm?
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bldg with horse's head on top.
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can any EK Pilot pass the FAA IMSAFE checklist?
Gents,
I'm not a Captain at EK, but maybe someone who is can ask the above question at their meeting.
Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Emotion
If a safe operation is the top priority, then why is the flight operations culture causing an increase in the above? As evidenced by the increase in serious operational errors, failed sobriety tests, attempts to limit sick calls, rumours of 11 recent sackings, minimum days off leading to chronic long term fatigue, etc. etc.
Any answers would be appreciated.
I'm not a Captain at EK, but maybe someone who is can ask the above question at their meeting.
Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Emotion
If a safe operation is the top priority, then why is the flight operations culture causing an increase in the above? As evidenced by the increase in serious operational errors, failed sobriety tests, attempts to limit sick calls, rumours of 11 recent sackings, minimum days off leading to chronic long term fatigue, etc. etc.
Any answers would be appreciated.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: dubai
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never come across that IMSAFE thing before but it seems spot on.
This is what should concern us most about our present operations. All the factors (too many to list) which are negatively contributing to each of the IMSAFE criteria have actually been exacerbated by management's response to recent events. Awareness of the symptoms is a good thing, but even then we are kept in the dark and we have to rely on rumour and speculation to try to determine the causes of each event and quite frankly none of the events have been fully explained as of yet.
Sadly the underlying problems are not being addressed and in fact these problem areas are becoming worse by the day.
It is the 'perfect storm' of flight safety issues. Fatigue, concern about careers and even some concern about the viability of EK, few options for other jobs which precludes people most negatively affected from removing themselves from the airline/city/management that is causing the grief and last but not least.... management who has not only caused most of the problems but who are now aggravating the situation.
If a company pushes way too far on occasion or if they demand a higher than acceptable tolerance of stupid policies such as crew rest, rosters, or lack of days off over a longer period of time, then it is a foregone conclusion that performance will decline. A little stress can be good but big stress or long lasting medium stress will inevitably cause human beings to do things they would otherwise not do.
It is fitting that human fatigue is called FATIGUE, because quite often the causes would have little affect if they were not present for long periods of time. Metal fatigue and human fatigue are similar; if you repeatedly bend a wire it will eventually break.... but up until the point it breaks, it might go unnoticed. Bend a human being too many times and he might seem fine until the point he breaks too. Minor or major errors in judgement, sickness, higher than normal alcohol intake, or irritability and disagreeability demonstrated by human beings are often symptoms.
The LAST thing that should be done, is to increase the stressors by firing people for an error in judgement, for which they had no previous history of making.
I wonder if the Gulf Air guys are wondering if EK is headed down the same path they followed years ago. Perhaps the similarities are not valid, but it makes me wonder.
This is what should concern us most about our present operations. All the factors (too many to list) which are negatively contributing to each of the IMSAFE criteria have actually been exacerbated by management's response to recent events. Awareness of the symptoms is a good thing, but even then we are kept in the dark and we have to rely on rumour and speculation to try to determine the causes of each event and quite frankly none of the events have been fully explained as of yet.
Sadly the underlying problems are not being addressed and in fact these problem areas are becoming worse by the day.
It is the 'perfect storm' of flight safety issues. Fatigue, concern about careers and even some concern about the viability of EK, few options for other jobs which precludes people most negatively affected from removing themselves from the airline/city/management that is causing the grief and last but not least.... management who has not only caused most of the problems but who are now aggravating the situation.
If a company pushes way too far on occasion or if they demand a higher than acceptable tolerance of stupid policies such as crew rest, rosters, or lack of days off over a longer period of time, then it is a foregone conclusion that performance will decline. A little stress can be good but big stress or long lasting medium stress will inevitably cause human beings to do things they would otherwise not do.
It is fitting that human fatigue is called FATIGUE, because quite often the causes would have little affect if they were not present for long periods of time. Metal fatigue and human fatigue are similar; if you repeatedly bend a wire it will eventually break.... but up until the point it breaks, it might go unnoticed. Bend a human being too many times and he might seem fine until the point he breaks too. Minor or major errors in judgement, sickness, higher than normal alcohol intake, or irritability and disagreeability demonstrated by human beings are often symptoms.
The LAST thing that should be done, is to increase the stressors by firing people for an error in judgement, for which they had no previous history of making.
I wonder if the Gulf Air guys are wondering if EK is headed down the same path they followed years ago. Perhaps the similarities are not valid, but it makes me wonder.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: i don't know
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey SS
What use is any firepower against scarecrows? They're only made of straw, burn a second, then are gone without a trace. A waist of ammunition.
Go there as a zombie, everything's been asked and whisked away, nothing more than on these pages, so sleep well, as I did.
What use is any firepower against scarecrows? They're only made of straw, burn a second, then are gone without a trace. A waist of ammunition.
Go there as a zombie, everything's been asked and whisked away, nothing more than on these pages, so sleep well, as I did.