Cadet training costs: At which point do the politicians say "enough is enough"?
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Cadet training costs: At which point do the politicians say "enough is enough"?
I've seen the latest cadet programme offering by one particular airline comes in at nearly £125k plus living expenses. Amazingly, the general public seem to be largely ignorant of the training costs, their best understanding being "it's expensive".
At what point do the airlines get so few quality applicants that they have to reduce training costs or make funding available (I'm aware BA couldn't fill their FPP the other year even with funding)? At what point do the politicians turn around and start regulating how much can actually charged?
At what point do the airlines get so few quality applicants that they have to reduce training costs or make funding available (I'm aware BA couldn't fill their FPP the other year even with funding)? At what point do the politicians turn around and start regulating how much can actually charged?
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Is this for the Virgin MPL? It only costs £125k if you are crazy enough to sign up, plenty of people on the flight deck today who paid less than half that! It amazes me that people could train for £50~60k, but will pay more than twice that to get on to some cadetship because there is a 'job' at the end of it.
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It's a sad but situation driven by demand!
When you compare the aviation industry against the maritime industry they run cadet schemes pumping out graduates every 6 months. The training (almost £75,000) is fully paid for by the companies and you even get paid a salary during college. It's a win/win. The government stump up some cash towards this and they also help the companies out with some tonnage tax relief for each cadet they take so everyone ones a winner.
Cadet gets qualified for free > company gets cheap labour during cadetship > company gets some cash back for taking on cadets.
why does this happen? shortage of willing candidates who would like a career at sea and the attrition rate of officers is very high.
I'd say the most important aspects of the maritime industry is that training schools are still run by traditional educational establishments, not the multi million pound businesses like within aviation. As long as there is a steady line of people paying the cash for training the prices will never drop.
Cadet gets qualified for free > company gets cheap labour during cadetship > company gets some cash back for taking on cadets.
why does this happen? shortage of willing candidates who would like a career at sea and the attrition rate of officers is very high.
I'd say the most important aspects of the maritime industry is that training schools are still run by traditional educational establishments, not the multi million pound businesses like within aviation. As long as there is a steady line of people paying the cash for training the prices will never drop.
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Maverick I certainly agree in principle that it is terrible what prices are being charged. This may make me unpopular however I must say I do see (and to a certain extent agree) with the logic that many use when they choose to part with such sums of cash.
Personally, if I had the money, or had means to access the money, I would have a choice to either go to CTC/OAA for example, pay £120,000+, get on an MPL and provided I don't treat it as a holiday camp and pass my exams etc, I'm all but guaranteed a position on the flight deck in 18 months. Further to this, I will have the means (however little) to pay back the cash spent to train.
So at the end of the day, you have spent the cash, and you have gotten the return on that investment that you intended to ... the job. Without which the whole thing is pointless I think you would agree.
Now the other option is to go modular or integrated at a less well known school and be "untagged". This will cost around £50,000 - £60,000 ... obviously a lot cheaper than the method previously discussed. However the thing is there is no agreement attached with anyone. You will join the thousands of other CPL/IR holders banging down the door of operators who just are not interested. Realistically you have Ryanair, CityJet, Norwegian and the odd time Jet2. If you don't pass their assessments, you really are in a pickle. Not many places will take you, and you've just spent £60,000 and have no job. What was the point in training if the whole point of it (to get a job) isn't achieved? And unfortunately many, many people have gone this route and not gotten any job after years of firing CVs everywhere.
So essentially there are two options. Either you spend £120,000+ on an MPL and mitigate the risks of flight training quite significantly and actually end up with a job and have that stress removed ... or spend £60,000 and take your bets.
To those that can afford it, the MPL certainly makes a lot more sense and so I see why they would go down the route when faced with the choice.
Personally, if I had the money, or had means to access the money, I would have a choice to either go to CTC/OAA for example, pay £120,000+, get on an MPL and provided I don't treat it as a holiday camp and pass my exams etc, I'm all but guaranteed a position on the flight deck in 18 months. Further to this, I will have the means (however little) to pay back the cash spent to train.
So at the end of the day, you have spent the cash, and you have gotten the return on that investment that you intended to ... the job. Without which the whole thing is pointless I think you would agree.
Now the other option is to go modular or integrated at a less well known school and be "untagged". This will cost around £50,000 - £60,000 ... obviously a lot cheaper than the method previously discussed. However the thing is there is no agreement attached with anyone. You will join the thousands of other CPL/IR holders banging down the door of operators who just are not interested. Realistically you have Ryanair, CityJet, Norwegian and the odd time Jet2. If you don't pass their assessments, you really are in a pickle. Not many places will take you, and you've just spent £60,000 and have no job. What was the point in training if the whole point of it (to get a job) isn't achieved? And unfortunately many, many people have gone this route and not gotten any job after years of firing CVs everywhere.
So essentially there are two options. Either you spend £120,000+ on an MPL and mitigate the risks of flight training quite significantly and actually end up with a job and have that stress removed ... or spend £60,000 and take your bets.
To those that can afford it, the MPL certainly makes a lot more sense and so I see why they would go down the route when faced with the choice.
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Is this for the Virgin MPL?
The Virgin Atlantic programme may be expensive, wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of the potential candidates for that went for another Virgin (well, 90% Stagecoach) programme which is an absolute peach.
I did have a few interviews lined up for the Merchant Navy (even had an ENG1) though ended up going into the City. They do offer some seriously good programmes mind you, the operator get some tax relief in exchange for training UK officers.
As for the politicians, I think if the cat got out the bag to the general public about how training is often financed, they would need to be seen to act. Quite what they'd do, I don't know. Additionally, cadet programme prices seem to be rising more quickly than house prices, especially in the North. You'd need circa. £200k of house equity to fund the training for one cadet these days, given the maximum loan to value ratio of 60%.
I do think the more affordable cadet programmes are the way for applicants to go, with Shamrock being #1 at the moment.
Sometimes I just wish ASLEF would grow wings...
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Momo95, I'm not so sure that it is as clear cut as that, maybe 5 years ago in the depths of the recession I would have agreed.
The Wings Alliance, albeit in the early stages, offers the benefits of the integrated course with the flexibility of the modular course and as time goes on they will more than likely build up more contacts allowing more cadets to be placed in jobs.
You can go modular, do the PPL/ATPL/hour building and then go off to CTC/OAA/FTE for the last bits which will gain you access to their respective 'career services'.
You can go modular and then cut in at the very end and do the CTC AQC course which will, again, will give you access to the CTC 'career service'.
Then you have other outfits like Kura who are 'connected'.
There are more options and routes now that offer a reasonable chance of success at the end and reduce the costs. Even at £60k its too expensive, but I think as aviation training becomes more diverse, competitive and can offer transitions into the airlines; CTC will price themselves out of the market - thank goodness!
I can recall one MPL course, the cadets were dropped midway through by the airline. The school, in the end, managed to place them in the orange outfit. So no guarantees, even with the MPL schemes.
I think its too rash to sign up to one of these £125k wonder schemes.
The Wings Alliance, albeit in the early stages, offers the benefits of the integrated course with the flexibility of the modular course and as time goes on they will more than likely build up more contacts allowing more cadets to be placed in jobs.
You can go modular, do the PPL/ATPL/hour building and then go off to CTC/OAA/FTE for the last bits which will gain you access to their respective 'career services'.
You can go modular and then cut in at the very end and do the CTC AQC course which will, again, will give you access to the CTC 'career service'.
Then you have other outfits like Kura who are 'connected'.
There are more options and routes now that offer a reasonable chance of success at the end and reduce the costs. Even at £60k its too expensive, but I think as aviation training becomes more diverse, competitive and can offer transitions into the airlines; CTC will price themselves out of the market - thank goodness!
I can recall one MPL course, the cadets were dropped midway through by the airline. The school, in the end, managed to place them in the orange outfit. So no guarantees, even with the MPL schemes.
I think its too rash to sign up to one of these £125k wonder schemes.
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Years ago, BA wanted a ''placid, stable individual who liked routine''. Now airlines seem to want the person with the most charisma!
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I've seen the latest cadet programme offering by one particular airline comes in at nearly £125k plus living expenses. Amazingly, the general public seem to be largely ignorant of the training costs, their best understanding being "it's expensive".
At what point do the airlines get so few quality applicants that they have to reduce training costs or make funding available (I'm aware BA couldn't fill their FPP the other year even with funding)? At what point do the politicians turn around and start regulating how much can actually charged?
At what point do the airlines get so few quality applicants that they have to reduce training costs or make funding available (I'm aware BA couldn't fill their FPP the other year even with funding)? At what point do the politicians turn around and start regulating how much can actually charged?
The only real impact Politicians can have is to lobby for student pilots to be regarded as exactly that "students". This would therefore open up things such as student loans and ease the difficulty of borrowing the capital required. This is actually something I have been campaigning for for several years now and I do have the ears of a few politicians and government departments, but like anything in politics...it takes a long time to see any major change.
With regards to the age old discussion about modular v's integrated, everyone will have there own personal reasons for choosing their respective routes. Personally I believe if you have the minerals and the common sense then either route is equally as effective. I went modular at a fairly unknown school out with the UK and in the 4 weeks since completing my training I have successfully passed 2 airline assessments (expecting job offers this week) and currently part way through the process with another 3 airlines.
I had the common sense to know that I would rather create networking opportunities during my training which could ultimately (have ultimately) led to gaining assessments, than to pay through the nose for an integrated "mentored" scheme or similar AQC type course.
It frustrates me the number of schools who sell themselves as "linked to" or "affiliated with" certain airlines. I can name a fair few of these schools who market themselves in such a way, that without doing proper research to the outsider, it comes across as basically a guranteed job at the end. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Most if not all of these links of affiliations still require you to go through the airline's own selection process at the end. Yes it does help in potentially bypassing the initial screening process however if that's what you're really worrying about then maybe you should look to invest you time in bettering your CV and experience, than spending your money relying on someone else to get you into an assessment. If you are considering a school who market themself as linked or affiliated to an airline, the I strongly suggest phoning that individual airline and questioning exactly how strong that link is and if there is still a selection process to go through at the end. I gurantee you'll be surprised.
It boils down to common sense, if you want to be a sausage then by all means pay £100k+ to the sausage factory and hope you pass the airline assessment at the end of it. Otherwise wise up, do you research, network, develop your CV and put yourself in a situation that gives you confidence that you will pass the assessment. It's all about making yourself stand out from the crowd. At the end of the day everyone you are competing against has exactly the same licence (bar MPL).
Everyone is perfectly capable of creating opportunities for themselves, you don't have to pay for opportunities.
Agreed, and as Sky-Plod rightly pointed out:
"Provision of flight training is a business, therefore each individual business can choose exactly how much they want to charge. "
"Provision of flight training is a business, therefore each individual business can choose exactly how much they want to charge. "
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Maverick I certainly agree in principle that it is terrible what prices are being charged. This may make me unpopular however I must say I do see (and to a certain extent agree) with the logic that many use when they choose to part with such sums of cash.
Personally, if I had the money, or had means to access the money, I would have a choice to either go to CTC/OAA for example, pay £120,000+, get on an MPL and provided I don't treat it as a holiday camp and pass my exams etc, I'm all but guaranteed a position on the flight deck in 18 months. Further to this, I will have the means (however little) to pay back the cash spent to train.
So at the end of the day, you have spent the cash, and you have gotten the return on that investment that you intended to ... the job. Without which the whole thing is pointless I think you would agree.
Now the other option is to go modular or integrated at a less well known school and be "untagged". This will cost around £50,000 - £60,000 ... obviously a lot cheaper than the method previously discussed. However the thing is there is no agreement attached with anyone. You will join the thousands of other CPL/IR holders banging down the door of operators who just are not interested. Realistically you have Ryanair, CityJet, Norwegian and the odd time Jet2. If you don't pass their assessments, you really are in a pickle. Not many places will take you, and you've just spent £60,000 and have no job. What was the point in training if the whole point of it (to get a job) isn't achieved? And unfortunately many, many people have gone this route and not gotten any job after years of firing CVs everywhere.
So essentially there are two options. Either you spend £120,000+ on an MPL and mitigate the risks of flight training quite significantly and actually end up with a job and have that stress removed ... or spend £60,000 and take your bets.
To those that can afford it, the MPL certainly makes a lot more sense and so I see why they would go down the route when faced with the choice.
Personally, if I had the money, or had means to access the money, I would have a choice to either go to CTC/OAA for example, pay £120,000+, get on an MPL and provided I don't treat it as a holiday camp and pass my exams etc, I'm all but guaranteed a position on the flight deck in 18 months. Further to this, I will have the means (however little) to pay back the cash spent to train.
So at the end of the day, you have spent the cash, and you have gotten the return on that investment that you intended to ... the job. Without which the whole thing is pointless I think you would agree.
Now the other option is to go modular or integrated at a less well known school and be "untagged". This will cost around £50,000 - £60,000 ... obviously a lot cheaper than the method previously discussed. However the thing is there is no agreement attached with anyone. You will join the thousands of other CPL/IR holders banging down the door of operators who just are not interested. Realistically you have Ryanair, CityJet, Norwegian and the odd time Jet2. If you don't pass their assessments, you really are in a pickle. Not many places will take you, and you've just spent £60,000 and have no job. What was the point in training if the whole point of it (to get a job) isn't achieved? And unfortunately many, many people have gone this route and not gotten any job after years of firing CVs everywhere.
So essentially there are two options. Either you spend £120,000+ on an MPL and mitigate the risks of flight training quite significantly and actually end up with a job and have that stress removed ... or spend £60,000 and take your bets.
To those that can afford it, the MPL certainly makes a lot more sense and so I see why they would go down the route when faced with the choice.
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Virgin Atlantic first started recruiting for their MPL programme in 2014, I believe they intend to continue recruiting in the immediate future. The programme costs £109k plus living expenses, though Virgin do guarantee a loan.
Maverick, I assume you watched Jet Jockeys, quite an interesting short film to be honest. The BA cadets from 1990 earned £23k after training (unless they were affected by the Gulf War I presume), that’s about £50k today adjusted for inflation.
I do believe the commercialisation of training can at times be a problem. Merchant Navy cadets and train drivers have much of their training completed directly with their employer, therefore training cannot be purchased “off the shelf” in the same way. Of course, BA used to operate Hamble, however it sadly closed in the 1980’s.
Sky-Plod, I presume you may be ex-emergency services (judging by your username). If this is the case, did you find that a safety-critical career outside of aviation was of significant help whilst applying? I do wonder if some un-tagged individuals struggle to find employment because they don’t have a great degree of life experience prior to pursuing a flying career.
Modular pilots can of course apply to Loganair, Eastern, Skybus, Flybe, various bizjet operators or instruct around their current job if they don’t go straight for a heavy jet job. I’m sure there areothers that I’ve missed too.
I do of course believe that airlines should enable people of any financial background to gain a place on one of their cadet programmes, whether it be up-front like Aer Lingus, or via a loan guarantee like BA.
Maverick, I assume you watched Jet Jockeys, quite an interesting short film to be honest. The BA cadets from 1990 earned £23k after training (unless they were affected by the Gulf War I presume), that’s about £50k today adjusted for inflation.
I do believe the commercialisation of training can at times be a problem. Merchant Navy cadets and train drivers have much of their training completed directly with their employer, therefore training cannot be purchased “off the shelf” in the same way. Of course, BA used to operate Hamble, however it sadly closed in the 1980’s.
Sky-Plod, I presume you may be ex-emergency services (judging by your username). If this is the case, did you find that a safety-critical career outside of aviation was of significant help whilst applying? I do wonder if some un-tagged individuals struggle to find employment because they don’t have a great degree of life experience prior to pursuing a flying career.
Modular pilots can of course apply to Loganair, Eastern, Skybus, Flybe, various bizjet operators or instruct around their current job if they don’t go straight for a heavy jet job. I’m sure there areothers that I’ve missed too.
I do of course believe that airlines should enable people of any financial background to gain a place on one of their cadet programmes, whether it be up-front like Aer Lingus, or via a loan guarantee like BA.
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Its interesting to note that shipping companies will foot the bill for training future officers; which would suggest there is no reason airlines cannot do it.
However, maybe it takes less deck and engineering officers to operate a shipping fleet than pilots to operate an airline fleet?
Maybe, when your shipping company and your end customers are generally multi-million pound businesses, its easier to justify your costs?
However, maybe it takes less deck and engineering officers to operate a shipping fleet than pilots to operate an airline fleet?
Maybe, when your shipping company and your end customers are generally multi-million pound businesses, its easier to justify your costs?
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Also, the following are the airlines that I can remember have opened recruitment to direct entry non rated low hour cadets this year:
Ryanair
Flybe
Eastern
Loganair
Jet2
Aer Lingus
Luxair
Monarch
West Atlantic
Wizzair
Swiftair
Momo95 said Cityjet ran the cadet scheme, didn't realise that was still open?
Of course you will have all the little small outfits on top of that, the market is good ATM so it doesn't matter whether you are integrated or modular. Incidentally, when the market is bad it doesn't matter whether you are modular or integrated!
Ryanair
Flybe
Eastern
Loganair
Jet2
Aer Lingus
Luxair
Monarch
West Atlantic
Wizzair
Swiftair
Momo95 said Cityjet ran the cadet scheme, didn't realise that was still open?
Of course you will have all the little small outfits on top of that, the market is good ATM so it doesn't matter whether you are integrated or modular. Incidentally, when the market is bad it doesn't matter whether you are modular or integrated!
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Slipstream that was a very rash judgment of me for you to make, I view absolutely no job "below me" ... most certainly not any flying job anyway. I just listed some of the airlines that popped to mind at that point. As far as I'm aware most others only take drips and drops of 5 people here or 8 people there etc and can't be relied on, I mentioned those that came to mind with a strong continuous hiring process.
Maverick Cityjet don't have their cadet scheme open at the moment but they do plan to open it again next year, likewise with Aer Lingus. As a side, did Aer Lingus take any 200hr guys as direct entry? It is my understanding that they can apply but people with only the cpl/ir and 200hrs rarely get anywhere with them.
All in all, I'm quite happy to sit back for the time being and send the odd application off to a cadet scheme that doesn't require me to sell my soul to the devil. I've decided to no longer go through with my easyjet mpl application at least anyway. I'd sooner go the modular route and try ryanair et al than give £125,000 to line the pockets of the ctc fatcats.
Maverick Cityjet don't have their cadet scheme open at the moment but they do plan to open it again next year, likewise with Aer Lingus. As a side, did Aer Lingus take any 200hr guys as direct entry? It is my understanding that they can apply but people with only the cpl/ir and 200hrs rarely get anywhere with them.
All in all, I'm quite happy to sit back for the time being and send the odd application off to a cadet scheme that doesn't require me to sell my soul to the devil. I've decided to no longer go through with my easyjet mpl application at least anyway. I'd sooner go the modular route and try ryanair et al than give £125,000 to line the pockets of the ctc fatcats.
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I'm reliably informed that Aer Lingus took some fATPLs from FTE on top of the guys on the cadetship early this year. On the back of that, I'd imagine that any low houred guys who applied directly to AL as Non-rated direct entry FO would be in with a good chance!
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That's really good to hear they did that and some guys certainly got lucky down there !
I'm just still cautious of going to FTE/CTC/OAA self sponsored and not on a tagged scheme despite these cases you hear of, the way i see it is you end up with the same license as someone who went to a less famous school maybe closer to home, spent a fraction of the price and say got Ryanair. Relying on getting extremely lucky at FTE with aer lingus for example doesn't justify spending twice the price without even a conditional offer from an airline is basically what im saying, if im spending 100k i want an airline planning to take me at the end of it, otherwise i'd go modular.
I'm aware i've deviated from the point you've made, Maverick but i'm just trying to clear up my view on things to see what others think
I'm just still cautious of going to FTE/CTC/OAA self sponsored and not on a tagged scheme despite these cases you hear of, the way i see it is you end up with the same license as someone who went to a less famous school maybe closer to home, spent a fraction of the price and say got Ryanair. Relying on getting extremely lucky at FTE with aer lingus for example doesn't justify spending twice the price without even a conditional offer from an airline is basically what im saying, if im spending 100k i want an airline planning to take me at the end of it, otherwise i'd go modular.
I'm aware i've deviated from the point you've made, Maverick but i'm just trying to clear up my view on things to see what others think