Paying for your rating !!!

[swampthing]

After just being told by a certain individual that "paying for your rating and the privilege to fly for , is the new way of aviation" and that "us" pilots better get used to it.... I got a brilliant idea!!!!

How about we go with this "new age aviation " and take it one step further... How about "us" pilots interview "you" companies and take "you" guys for a check ride on "your" own cost to see if "we" even want to spend "our" money with you !!!

Now that sounds good.... got it out of my system!!

[bizjet inmate]

Cant speak for everyone, and there will ALWAYS be some mug with a bottomless pit (ie parents), so therefore dont think this attitude or situation will go away. I was probably 3 years behind some of my collegues getting my break......but at least I didnt pay for it. now some 12 years on still proud to be an employee......not a company "Sponsor"

MY VERY HUMBLE OPINION!

[notlikethat]

There is one company that not only likes people to pay for their own rating but then asks them at the interview if they would be prepared to come in and help paint the office.

Apparently all about being a team player. Umm.

[swampthing]

Do they ask you to pay for the paint as well ? I really would not be surprised if they do..

Bizjet... I am still waiting for my break.. it appears to be... well.. rather illusive !!

[swampthing]

Unfortunately Aeroncaman.. you are so correct... !! unity is what we need.. I sound like a real union worker now.. !! But it really gets my hair on end.. it appears that everybody has now climbed onto this gravy train !! Like i was told.. "if that airline can do it, so can we!" Makes me wanna spit acid !!

[INNflight]

There will always be the ones who will gladly sponsor a rating for the right guy, unfortunately they are harder to get by.

It's just about sticking to your guns though, and congrats for doing so, swampthing!

I recently applied for a flt crew job where the application form said: "Are you willing to self-sponsor the TR?"
I ticked no and needless to say didn't hear from them but hey.... not my loss.

While I am low timish and currently work an OPS job as a dispatcher (which I enjoy, and get to stay in touch with a lot of crews downroute aswell) and would gladly get into a flight deck - it's just not AT ANY COST for me.

Keep your head high, it'll be less easy to get spit on that way.

[FlyTCI]

INNflight, I sure wish there were more people like you out there. Many of our lives would have looked different if there was. I have been in this business for some 13 years now and have proudly resisted any urge to pay for a type myself. I must admit I have thought about it but resisted every time. It took me all these years to get away from props into a jet, but with only six months of flying a Citation X the company wants to make me captain.

I "lost" several years against other friends who went the other route, but I feel I at least have stuck to my guns and that it finally paid off. I'm sure it will do so for you as well. The tide does seem to be turning in the business so keep your chin up and continue to network. Eventually someone will appreciate your "pride" in not paying.

[DA50driver]

Pay for type rating

Hi Guys,

If none of us paid for a type rating this problem would disappear. I have made it to a position where I hire pilots and as I have never paid for a type rating (I have 7) I will not hire pilots that have or are willing to pay for the rating.

Pay for training is the cancer of our business. When I arrived at the company I am at they required pilots to sign a 3 year "bond" for their training. I was typed and current, not an issue for me. (I was a contract pilot paying for my own training events, but charging plenty to make it back). When I hired the next pilot they wanted me to "bond" him. I dug my heals in and said "not as long as I am in charge, if you want to do that I will quit". It was a gamble, but I have been there longer than any of the guys that ran the department before me.

With this comes the issue of pilots getting typed and then leaving. This would make me look terrible, so I fight for our pilots every chance I have making sure they are paid appropriately and have a good quality of life. If I treat them right, they will treat me right.

I would like to start a group for pilots that are not "whores". Membership would require things like never having paid for a type rating, not having worked for peanuts, never having referred to the principal as "my owner". (It implies that you are a slave).

We need to be professionals. If we behave like professionals and act like professionals we will be treated as such. Let them step all over you and they will. The aircraft owners are business men, they are usually the ones that are easy to deal with. The problem is when a lawyer or accountant is trying to score brownie points with the principal by beating up the flight crew.

I realize I am a dinosaur in the industry (I am 42), but I wouldn't be in this business for the terms and conditions many are accepting. I am not just interested in flying a shiny jet, I am looking for a return on my investment.

I have never been a union guy, but we need to shun the scum that pays for training.

[Propellerpilot]

The companies that want to suck your personal account for a type rating to fly THEIR aeroplane, are actually the ones that do not have much else to offer and are not usually a pleasure or the better places to work for, there is also very little loyalty to count on.

That is why many guys leave after a short while and are replaced by others, which in turn again pay for the rating - and so the wheel keeps on turning. These companies will never evolve beyond a certain level, because human capital is lost. No investment from their side=no good long term return and the quality of the operation might suffer.

I will personally never pay for a type rating and the system of a training bond of 1-2 years has proven to work well for me in the past and it also worked well for my employers. A company will tend to take more care of employees that they have invested in and whose loyalty they can rely on in turn - a socalled win-win situation.

The more pilots and companies realize this, the better for the industry.

[Davjet]

DA50driver

The points you raised are valid, but what is encountered these days when trying to secure a position doesn't seem to work the way it should as per the principals you stated (and I mean that respectfully).

For example and I'm guessing there are several of us who've experienced the same;

I've always been passionate about flying since a tiny lad, in fact my mother kept pieces of homework from my junior school days describing the life of a Pilot, and that has been my one and only ambition to this day. So in my early 20s I managed to secure a Bank loan to undertake my CPL (FAA) which I completed about 10 years ago. I applied to every company under the sun, whilst taking a permanent job in a seperate industry to pay off my training costs.

After a while all my applications were answered with - "do you have a Type rating?" I wasn't put off when the answer was (no offer) unless I undertook such training, even if I wanted to the Bank would not increase my loan agreement to fulfill this.

I'm now in my mid thirties and still applying almost daily. Nearly every operator I approach wants a Type Rating for the particular aircraft they fly with certain time on type to satisfy mainly the insurers as they say, and none have offered any bond scheme.

Whilst the situation worked out in your favour at that particular time you got your break, the current situation is not the same. I have witnessed numerous colleagues who graduated the same time I did, and who went on to do these self - funded ratings, and they're now either Captains or just turning into one.

In an ideal world your philosophy does make sense, but realistically if requested of me I would probably consider doing a rating. Time is not on my side, and I would potentially like to make a return on my investment.

[galaxy flyer]

Do any UK or EU airlines expect applicants to have ratings? Only SWA in the US, good enough reason not to apply in my view.

As far as bizjet ratings, it is a crap shoot which rating to get, so what is the point unless guaranteed a job if one got the rating. Then, the question has to be, "If they want to hire me, why shouldn't they pay for the training?"

Next, what good is the rating without any experience in the jet? In the US, anyone with a rating and 2 hours in the plane would be laughed out of the office in most reputable operators.

GF

[Propellerpilot]

@galaxy flyer: Bullseye! that is exactly how I see it as well. It is a huge risk of ruining you whole life a type rating with zero hours on type is worth jack. I don't think it is worth it at all, sort of like flushing your annual income straight down the toilet.

[INNflight]

@FlyTCI

Thank you - I appreciate it!

@DA50driver

I admire your point of view - there's few around who get it. If you make your flight department one where people WANT to stick around, the revolving door protection is not needed.

May I respectfully ask to apply at your operation later this year? Ironically I am bonded in my current OPS job - even though it's a great company to work for.

Keep your head up high Davjet, and network the hell out of this industry!

[swampthing]

@ DA50Driver I Salute you sir !!! We need more people like you on this industry, I am now 38 years old.. unemployed (been made redundant), jet time and willing to relocate to where ever the work is, I already lost my car to the bank, my family is suffering and my house is on the line !!!

But ... oh no no no .. you need a type rating..!! and then if you do seem to get some attention fom a bean counter in some poxy company ... "you need to pay for your type rating"..!!

ok .. well let me see.. I am unemployed.. have no income.. I need to pay for my type rating from money that I get from my dead money tree... and then the type rating is more than the yearly salary they would pay you, which means that those companies get free labour for about a year and there is some idiots that will go for it, making life for the rest of us hell !!

companies are in plain and simple terms... "TAKING THE PISS !!! "

[His dudeness]

Over here, in old Europe, there is a certain class of operators that just aim at the inexperienced. They can pair them with equally inexperienced captains and let them pay for all trainings, medicals, typerating, upgrade, partially even for supervision.
If the operator has such crews, they are the ones that are easily forced to do things that others wouldn´t do. Thats why one can see 6 passengers falling out of a CJ after a 1000nm trip with luggage for a 6 month long safari, thats why one can meet a crew that left homebase close to you after 22 hours with 10hrs flying time and no rest in a hotel etcetc.
The common thing is usually: you pay for your rating on the airplane, that generates hours without catering costs for the operator. Then you get promised ample hours either as a freelancer or with a contract. If you have a contract, then you´ll rot away in the office, since you are cheaper than a secretary and - heaven forbid - if there is a guy stuck in traffic, you can replace him quickly. If you are the freelance type, then you are expected to clean the airplane after a 18 hrs day not only inside, but also outside. You spend another 3 hrs doing that. For all of that you get crap money. The only thanks you get, is that you are get probably recalled.

(don´t get me wrong, nothing essentially wrong with cleaning airplanes, thats how I financed my PPL, but not in your rest time after a long flight and the next T/O is already scheduled in the time you´re supposed to sleep)

The crews help these operators to undercut decent operators. The crews do it because they think when they have the experience they can join good operators.

Meeeeep. WRONG!

There won´t be many around after you actively helped to cut them off their business.

I´m with DA50, I won´t hire anyone who does SSTR. I know that there is an increasing number of DOs that develop backbone and try to fight these things. Probably not enough, but maybe eventually it will go in the right direction.

Just for info, all the things I mentioned above, I witnessed. We had an operator at the field I was based, that acted exactly as described. My boss closed down after long years, in which we often lost to this operator, especially flights to brokers (they have great share in this) and new clients. It takes a sometimes a long time, but after 20 years my boss thought its not worth anymore and closed the company. (there were other things involved, but just getting even for 3 years in a row was certainly one of them)

[swampthing]

@ HissDudeness .... Absolutely true !!

For once I wish I could hand in my C.V. to an operator or Chief pilot in charge and actually get a good response asking for an interview where they will type rate me and bond me for a number of years..... I must admit.. I will most probably pass out !!

[FlyingGasMain]

This is always very much a 'hot topic' with flight crew. I think DA50driver and Davjet sum up the conflicting arguments very well.

I would like to see more employers / hirers like DA50driver who are prepared to show faith in the crew they employ and pay for their rating, the faith part being that the pilots will stick around and make good the investment made in them.

I see the whole situation as a tension between pilots and companies. The companies have the upper hand right now with this recession and the number of rated pilots around. These times also mean there are those who are downright desperate and will pile more debt on top of existing debt to do a rating and get a job. There may come a time in the next few years when the boot is on the other foot !

I was lucky enough to work in Ops for a company for a year, then get made up to pilot and have my rating paid for. Its an old route, but it does seem to work and I know there are other companies out there who still do this.

I can fully understand people who weigh up the financial pros and cons of paying for a rating and go for it ie. pay for a rating now, but get a job and start earning reasonable money. There are plenty who cant afford to do that though, and the paying brigade encourage the 'let em pay for it' attitude of employers, thus blocking out lots of talented types who cant afford to pay.

My personal advice would be to stick to your guns at least for a year or 2, to see whether you can turn up one of the better employers who will pay for the type rating. As somebody said, you've got to network to the nth degree ! Longer term we should be sticking together as pilots and trying to force a change in attitude from employers.

[what next]

Hello!

I´m with DA50, I won´t hire anyone who does SSTR.

Yes, but... like everybody else, you like to hire people with some experience, don't you? And if, in the past, someone had to pay for his first typerating in order to get his first job that allowed him to gain the amount of experience that you like to see in your pilots, would you still not hire him? Honestly, there is not only black or white in the world. Rather "reality" and "dream".

And as "suitcaseman" points out, nothing in this life comes for free: If the operator pays for your typerating, then you have to accept a lower initial salary or some other penalties. Everywhere. Even in your operation I assume. Every airline cadet scheme works that way: They pay for your training, you earn less money - you pay for your training, you earn more money. Rocket science for beginners, so to say.

I am instructing a lot beside flying, and in the past we used to tell our students never to pay for a typerating. But in 2011, advising a young (=200hr) pilot never to pay for a type rating means sentencing him to permanent unemployment. I don't like it either, but I have to face reality.

Happy landings,
Max

NB: I never paid directly for a type rating (two so far) myself and accepted lower intial salaries instead. But with hindsight, it might have been wiser to invest some money in a good rating 20 years ago, because it would have sped-up my career (10 years flying piston twins really didn't help a lot...) and with interest and compound interest I would have a lot more money in the bank now.

NNB (or is it NBB?): Didn't we have this same discussion a dozen times before?

[Davjet]

There are have been some excellent responses to the “paying for a rating” thread which has produced some great for and against statements. In my case I have approached numerous operators mainly part 91 in Europe. Below are just some of the responses I’ve encountered along the way:

· You need a type rating on this particular aircraft to at least be considered.
· The companies insurers won’t approve of taking you on because you do not have a type rating on the aircraft we operate.
· We don’t do a bonding program.
· We recently took someone on with a type rating on the aircraft.
· Go away and maybe get an SIC rating on a popular type to increases your chances, and this may be a cheaper option as opposed to getting a full rating, however by no means are we guaranteeing you a position once obtained. We now have your cv and will be in touch should a position become available.

So as you can see, this is perhaps why some people will consider doing a type rating to make themselves more marketable and to have a chance in getting a foot in the door. Not all of us have wealthy parents as someone commented smartly on here, it’s a risk one is willing to take to make a better life for themselves and pursue their passion. If all heads of flight departments had a similar mindset of say DA50driver then situations like this would not exist.

Another issue not mentioned here is the fact that most operators will only hire based on recommendation from their existing crews or ops people if a position becomes available. So therefore an aspiring Pilot not only has the type rating issue to contend with, but the issue of nepotism in some cases.

My Father once gave a piece of advice on his deathbed – “ Son opportunities don’t come often, so if one doesn't arise then you’ve got to create your own”

[Propellerpilot]

Very interesting thread this.

The whole insurance excuse is a lie, it just costs more. You can insure anything and that has always been proven when there is a pilot shortage: then suddenly everything is possible, just to keep the crafts flying.

Training bond is good. I am happy to work for a lower salary and have a job initially until the bond is paid off and experience on the craft has grown and hours have gone up. That is called a personal investment. But pay upfront for a TR: NEVER! Most GA TR are also just not worth it in the long run for private investment - unless you want to fly a VLJ for the rest of your life.