I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a reply.Apparently they've not even had the decency to answer questions around the vulcan now in static limbo.Suppose they'll leave it to the volunteers on the vulcan village to take the flack.I suspect that excuse for an official statement is all we will get
I presume it will have to stay at Waddo untill a new PTF is issued, which I also assume it won't be until the work on 603 is carried out. So how long will that be?
If it takes the CAA 15 (working?) days to process application and the inspection of 603 still hasn't happened, then Yeovilton and Fairford must be doubtful to say the least.
Time for Mr Pleming to come clean?
Well, 3 hours driving there and back to an airshow barely worthy of the name and the only thing I wanted to see being towed into the static park when I arrived. Cheers
mark36 - 4 members of groundcrew and a member of Her Majesty's Finest Nautical Burger Eating (and Fire Fighting) Service were all on hand at the aircraft answering lots of questions around midday... and had been there for ages, visibly suffering in the heat. One of them said the filth had even been called to deal with an overly exuberant member of the crowd that was attempting to extract satisfaction from a young female volunteer at the "Village" thing (it doesn't look much look a village?).
S**t airshow, more dead air than flying, and massed ranks of Cessnas to lull you to sleep while you walk the lines of "win a duck" and "crap sweeties for sale" stalls... no disrespect to the light blue but talk about hanging an airshow on a single act... that grey lumpy bizjet spiralling up while I was queuing to get in was class though. Still, "Little Johnny" was happy as he got to go inside a plastic Chinook. I'm sure he's "special"...
thanks for that LN,i would expect nothing else from the overall brigade who i know work their buts of for the cause.My comment was more aimed at the heirachy who should be the ones facing the public over this debacle.
I don't normally make any comments except those of a general type and usually connected with modding this forum.
However, I am about to make an exception.
If what I read is true then the engineering incompetence shown by the Director, and maybe one or two of his staff, is an absolute disgrace. Tempsford won't mind me saying that he holds a similar position and I'd take a bet that none of his aircraft (rather more in number than just one!) would be susceptible to this kind of negligence. Paperwork is the soul of an aircraft and must be perfect before it can fly.
After the pleading and cajoling of well earned money from those who contributed to this project it is a massive kick in the backside for all those who have waited to see 558 in the air. IF the PtoF expired on the 2nd July a new one should have been obtained before that date!
If the 558 is serviceable, and has been for some time, then there can be no possible excuse and the person responsible should stand up and be counted and to be made accountable for gross incompetence and probably resign - but NOT before he rectifies his wrong. !5 days for a PofE is normal and he MUST have known that.
It is a fiasco of the worst kind and Dr Pleming must make an announcement.
__________________ Cool Mod - Here, and was there.
Posted on UKAR, and other forums by Damien Burke. I have his permission to post it here:
Quote:
Over on the VTS forum, there were calls for Eddie Forrester (big sponsor) to start lopping heads off etc. I've just got off the phone with Eddie.
He's currently away from the internet for some hours but asked me to post this on his behalf; I'll copy it here for general interest given the remarks here about management, without further comment.
Eddie is FULLY AWARE of all the circumstances behind today's news and says it is NOT, REPEAT NOT the fault of anyone in VTS management despite what you may read on internet forums and would ask that temperatures are lowered in here and the calls for resignations etc. are stopped as you are all working from the basis of inaccurate or non-existent information.
Just an FYI as it's aimed at the VTS forum residents really.
As the official Vulcan flying display commentator, I have been at Waddo all day today, and will be tomorrow. I have conducted 2 interviews on local PA, and 3 for local (air show) radio. I have also talked to countless people at the Vulcan Village, and to other people who have asked questions as I walked around the show site. I have found that, almost without exception, people have been sympathetic to VTST’s problems, once they’ve had the facts explained to them.
I’ve started by saying that VTST is totally gutted by this appalling situation. But I’ve asked people to consider that this is not a situation of VTST’s making - and indeed was something that VTST did not hear about until late Friday.
A year ago, the CAA said that before the next Permit to Fly renewal (3 Jul 2009) investigative work had to be completed on Vulcan 603 at BAES Woodford - an aircraft owned by BAES, not VTST. This was not work that VTST had to carry out - or even could do, since it was not their aircraft.
Despite many reminders, or possibly even badgering, from VTST, the work was not carried out. VTST was given to understand, however, that some flexibility could be available for a temporary extension of the PTF. This turned out, late on Friday, not to be the case
It seems to me that no blame attaches to the CAA, or to BAES - and indeed, the CAA have been trying very hard to resolve the problem, even over the weekend.
It is all thoroughly regrettable - and no one feels more badly than the VTST people I have seen around me at Waddo today. But, as the admirable Eddie Forrester says (thanks Damien and Dan)
Quote:
it is NOT, REPEAT NOT the fault of anyone in VTS management.
Maybe I’ll see you at Waddo tomorrow. Please come and say hallo, or even toss a few insults in. It’ll be a pleasure to see you.
Sorry if I'm being a bid stupid here, but who was supposed to carry out the work on 603?
BAE themselves or a third party?
It would also seem a tad naive of VTST to be assuming a temporary extension of the PtF could be had without (it would seem) getting official word from the CAA that this was definitely the case.
And it takes you to the eve of the show when thousands of people have paid out good money to travel to the show to tell us this, you scum management should all resign, Fleming first as he is supposed to be the head of this.
you have had my last donation and no doubt that of a lot more, people paid for this out of their own pockets to support you and get you were you are today, and you have had since 2005-2007 to get this rectified, additionally an application for a renewal can go in one month before for a permit renewal, so you can come on here and deride other people as it being their fault, but I am afraid the buck stops with you! You knew what had to be done, you failed to ensure it was and then you have the audacity to allow members of the said public to pay out good money in a harsh climate for a show and to get there to see her fly when you know it will not happen......
I hope you all get your P45's over this and stop living off the backs of the public that put you in your management positions........
Your goodwill has gone down the drain, and the shame is you are dragging Waddingtons Show with it.................
Do as your website appears to have done, quit.
Why is everyone making excuses for Lemming......... sorry Flemming and why is he not answering them himself? he should step down forthwith.
1. "Given to understand" sounds rather like "chose to assume". "Only became apparent" means "Only became apparent to the numpty who chose to assume". I very much doubt that the CAA changed their mind about issuing new a permit to fly on Friday evening - I suspect that they said what they said a year ago, in writing, and have been entirely consistent ever since!
2. Why would BAES spend time and money doing destructive testing on a scrap airframe as a favour to VTST/TVOC? Why, when XH558 was in apparent hibernation over winter, didn't VTST/TVOC offer to turn up and do the work themselves? If the offer had been made but BAES refused to allow TVOC/VTST personnel to do it themselves, and the work wasn't going to get done, as would have been obvious weeks ago, why didn't VTST/TVOC forewarn the CAA and achieve resolution with them one way or the other back then?
So, if the CAA said what they meant and meant what they said a year ago and haven't said anything different since, and if BAES haven't done anything wrong, then it's really not a case of 'shrug, it's nobody's fault'. It's a monumental engineering project management f***-up of epic proportions. With an aircraft that is probably slated to do no more than ten public displays a year, and is typically either U/S or WX prevented from participating in at least 60% of them, that leaves about 4 possible UK flying displays a year that are actually going to happen, and this entirely avoidable cock-up has just wiped out at least two of them, possibly more. This year the 'display season' started in mid June because the 'winter maintenance' wasn't started until spring, and it could already be over. Pisspoor return on all those pledges from people who wanted to see the thing fly...
As someone who has been on the front line of Permit applications just before an airshow, I have actually been able to get a Permit to Fly issued to my organisation in two days.
Application Type:A8-20 Permit RenewalReceived Date:26/06/2009Expected Date
of Processing:14/07/2009
and it is not expected to be completeted until after Yeovilton has been and gone.......... that is a Management cock up and as such bearing in mind the financial outlay of a lot of public supporters in getting to the show, those responsible including Flemming however you spell it should RESIGN........ If I did the same with my renewals I process every year I would be sacked, and you only have ONE to do.
The photos taken on Thursday when XH558 arrived at Waddington are likely to be the last photos of this wonderful lady in the sky,looks like Waddo will have 2 gate-guard Vulcans now,see the final? arrival here:
I think you and everyone else show demand a refund........ one or two will not carry any weight but a lot will......... Sad to Say Waddingtons Reputation has been damaged over this.
(Posted in the ‘Engineering’ section of the forum due to this being an Engineering topic!)
I wanted to post this as a poll, but that function doesn’t appear to be available any longer. Even so, here are my intended poll choices:
quote:1. No management changes required
2. Dr. Pleming (CEO) should be replaced with immediate effect
3. Mr. Edmondson (Eng. Mngr) should be replaced with immediate effect
4. Both should be replaced with immediate effect
In the light of this weekend’s situation with respect to 558's lack of Permit to Fly renewal, I know many of us appreciate just how important this matter is for 558's immediate future.
Whilst we as VTS Club members have no actual power as a Public Limited Company's shareholders do, we remain VTS’s primary source of funding; as such, is it not appropriate for us to have a voice in exactly how our money is spent? Is it not just as important that our wishes be listened to by VTS Trust?
In addition to the poll above, I propose that the VTS Club convenes an Extraordinary meeting, as a matter of urgency, to address the ongoing issues with VTS Trust management. I propose that the VTS Club Committee consider withholding funding from the Trust until we the Club are 100% confident in the Trust management’s abilities to continue operating 558 as a display aeroplane. In short, the Club Committee should press for the removal of Mr. Edmondson from his position within VTS Trust.
Please add your comments!
Many of you may know that I’ve long been a critic of VTS Trust’s management ‘skills’ and that, after a ‘reshuffle’ of employees last autumn, I began to see a very promising change in attitudes ‘at the top’ – I made a point of voicing my POSITIVE opinions just as vehemently as my previous NEGATIVE opinions, although qualifying my comments with the point that further changes would still be required.
My thoughts in this respect have not changed and I firmly believe that all of us have now seen for ourselves just how much has changed over the past eight months or so. At long last, the Club has been able to prove just what an effective and dedicated team we are, particularly with respect to rescuing the project earlier this year with the successful Pledge Scheme, and the more recent marketing and merchandising incentives.
Sadly though, we have continually been let down by the Trust management – typically by the complete lack of timely information; this weekend has been yet another classic example of the apparent distain the Trust management have for the very people who raise the funds to pay their salaries!
Hopefully most of you know me well enough to appreciate that I don’t throw accusations around wildly, without having at least a modicum of information on the subject, much of which is given to me in strictest confidence. I DO know what has been going on, ‘behind the scenes’ and I would like to think that most will trust my opinion to be an informed and ‘educated’ one.
This weekend is by no means the first time that VTS Trust management have made errors, but usually the fact that they have been identified and rectified by outside parties or people goes unpublicised, resulting in VTS hailed as wonderful. This weekend is no exception and, in my own opinion, whether Marshall Aerospace were directly to blame, Andrew Edmondson’s role is to manage all engineering matters, including ensuring that engineering contractors do whatever it is that they are contracted to do. By default he is ultimately responsible for this current shambles. There is a distinct difference between being BLAMEWORTHY, and being RESPONSIBLE. All managers are paid to take responsibility for their department, whether they are directly to blame or not – ergo, Mr. Edmondson is RESPONSIBLE for this utter mess.
Sticking my head on the block even more, even IF the Permit to Fly renewal IS sorted out, my information is that there are other important engineering matters which cast a shadow of doubt over 558's display status within weeks. Please do not ask me for specifics, as I will not betray the confidence that others have placed upon me. Suffice to say that it is another 100% engineering matter for which Mr. Edmondson is wholly responsible.
Sadly, issues such as these reflect badly on ALL those who work tirelessly for 558’s benefit, and easily overshadow all the hard work done by so many. Thinking back to my own involvement in the Pledge Scheme ‘telethon’, most of the hundreds of Club members I spoke to asked the same thing, “Is this going to happen every year?” I proudly replied that I had every confidence in the ‘new team’ at the helm, and that I really thought that the project had gathered momentum. I now feel as if I have deceived all those who pledged money to keeping 558 flying, and that I swindled them out of their hard-earned cash.
I am personally sick and tired of the endless attitude of secrecy surrounding many 558 matters, and I KNOW to what degree we Club members are treated like ‘mushrooms’ (kept in the dark and fed on ‘manure’)
We have just experienced a prime example of this, in that 558 flew to Waddington AFTER the Permit to Fly issue was known about at the highest managerial level – and yet no official statement was issued until late morning on Saturday, the first day of display at Waddington. Elsewhere on the internet, it has been quoted that VTS Trust did not know about this until Friday – whatever anyone else wants you to believe, it is NONSENSE, because I knew about it on Thursday! In my opinion, this is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!
For far too long now, VTS Trust management have enjoyed applause and praise for a job well done, when in truth, much of it has been ineptly mismanaged by those whose salaries WE work very hard to pay, whilst issues tend to get sorted out by others counting on the enormous goodwill and passion that exists for 558. This surely cannot continue indefinitely!
If the current and culpable VTS Trust management escape this time, just what WILL it take to PROVE what ineffective, inexperienced and inept management we have in charge of OUR aeroplane?
Please DO add your comments, whether you agree or disagree with me - 558 is OUR aeroplane and our opinions DO matter!
sm
There would appear to be a good deal of economy avec l'actualite in all this. Not really acceptable behaviour from an organisation like this that exists solely because of a combination of public money and continues to exist by dint of donations. I can think of almost nothing, except possibly some of the commercials surrounding any corporate sponsorship, that should be remotely secret. I think the guilty heads need to roll.
Is the Permit to fly needed for 558 to fly at all or just for it to do a public display? if its just for a public display cant the vulcan actually do a take off then fly away for 10 mins then come back and land. that way we all get to see it flying
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