Jetstar cadets grounded

[Iron Bar]

Slight clarification re JQ seniority. The Pilots agreement
refers to Seniority being a "major consideration"
in the allocation of promotions, base assignments and
so on. So in actual fact there is no "strict" seniority
system. They do what they like.

Thanks to Kelpie etal for insightful contributions.

[4dogs]

A Word of Caution

The Senate Inquiry is receiving all of these pieces and putting them together and getting a very clear picture of what and who is causing safety in the Australian Aviation Industry to be compromised.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the principle you espoused, the problem is that we are dealing with a highly complex industry in which none of the Senators has direct experience. The gathering of data and the intelligent analysis of it requires expert advice - unfortunately, the confidential caveats placed on many of the "snippets" means that the available technical expertise is effectively isolated from the data.

I have no doubt that the good Senators have identified that there are threats to the existing safety levels - but the problem for them is to identify suitable solutions. And that is not easy....

Stay Alive,

[killa loop]

Cadets

Straight from 4 corner

MARK JOHNSON: Matt Hicks is a, you know, a very competent operator with 15 or so years in Qantas having flown a 767, 747, A330 and A380 and he was working I would say close to his limit. And I would not have liked to have seen someone with very low hours trying to do that job on that day.

[Flt.Lt Zed]

Cadets

The latest 'Flight' magazine includes a progress report on the accident investigation of B737 ET409 near Beirut. The report indicates the dissparity of experience between captain [20yrs.10,000hrs] and copilot [673 total hours].
This situation will often lead to a copilot unwilling to criticise the captain and vice versa a captain unwilling to heed criticism from an inexperienced co.
The Jetstar cadet scheme will replicate this situation with possible dire outcomes.

[MrWooby]

Possibly Flt.Lt Zed, however steep cockpit gradients aren't as much of a problem in western airlines compared to middle east and asian carriers. Western pilots are much more inclined to speak up if they believe something is wrong regardless of experience, and western captains are much more inclined to listen. They don't have the loss of face culture which permeates asian culture.
another factor is GEN Y, these creatures are definitley more inclined to speak up.

[The Kelpie]

Following management's refusal to put the cadets on the EBA and in the absence of a union agreed contract are the cadets (all now AIPA members I understand) still grounded?

Thanks

Kelpie

[Roller Merlin]

Next lot of cadets are already training on the line in JQ

[ThePaperBoy]

Previously it has been J* management's plans to water down conditions which has annoyed me - not the cadets. However, I'm tolerating the cadets less and less.

Chatting to a J* cadet last week, the naivety really blew me away. The cadet's comments went along the lines of "I don't think the conditions will stay that poor for long. After all, if they don't improve we will all leave and they'll need to find a lot of replacement pilots".

I think there will be more than enough warm bodies to jump in the right hand seat after you depart. That is if you leave - no one else will touch you.

[Dekka]

QANTAS recruitment page:

2011 Qantas Cadet Pilot Programs

Qantas Pilot Recruitment has recently completed the final review of its Cadet program requirements for 2011. After careful consideration we have informed our Industry Partners of our intention to suspend all proposed Cadet programs for 2011. We acknowledge that this message will disappoint candidates interested in Cadet opportunities for 2011 however the decision has been based on numerous internal and external factors which we believe warrants the suspension of all courses.


he he he

[The Green Goblin]

Considering there are guys who have been in industry placement since 2007, I think their loyalty should be getting them up and running.

Some of these guys have left the regionals to fly bug smashers to gain command time and others are pretty close to regional commands in turboprops.

Also considering the best thing about the QF cadetship was seniority, some of these guys have been screwed big time since it was removed in 2009.

GG

EDIT:

Lets also not forget the hypocracy. The QF cadets used to spend at least 2 years in industry placement flying regional airliners such as Metros before they would be let anywhere near the backseat of a 747.

How can a program which costs more, yet offers less allow Jetstar cadets to go straight to the front seat, when only a few years ago QF management would not let this type of thing happen?

[glekichi]

A whole group of cadets training in 2008 went directly onto mainline jets. If there really are guys still on industry placement that is very poor form.

[rmcdonal]

If there really are guys still on industry placement that is very poor form.

Yup, one group went into industry placement, and the following group went directly into mainline.
The first group are still in industry placement, some now even hold commands in the regionals.
My understanding was that they needed a bunch of pilots at the time and group B were ready to go, where as group A were spread around the country.

[The Kelpie]

The QF cadets weren't even on industry placement they were just put out there to fend for themselves until things picked up. Still waiting!!!

[The Green Goblin]

The QF cadets weren't even on industry placement they were just put out there to fend for themselves until things picked up. Still waiting!!!

That would have been after about 2009 Kelpie, love your work though.

You know the funny thing? These Qantas cadets were considered hard work to get up to speed on Metros, Saabs, Brasilias etc by the likes of Skippers, Airnorth, Pearl, Macair etc YET Jetstar cadets are considered the ducks nuts and go straight to the front of the class.

Go bloody figure

[astroboy55]

You know the funny thing? These Qantas cadets were considered hard work to get up to speed on Metros, Saabs, Brasilias etc by the likes of Skippers, Airnorth, Pearl, Macair

Im sure everyone would like to believe that, but it is not the case in all instances. there definitely were a few instances.

Funnily enough, there were plenty of GA guys and gals that were considered extremely hard work to get up to speed, infact some failed where the cadets succeeded. Again, not the case in all instances.

However, that is a discussion for another time and place. The jetstar cadetship is a crock and should be outed as such. I for one have never supported the direct transition to the window seat of a jet, and never will. As someone who went through the cadetship, I would have no hesitation in stating that I was not ready to step into a jet after the training. It was not sufficient. No amount of 'sim' or multi crew training time is. Only real world time in real aircraft can prepare a person. even then, there are many individual traits and behaviours that can preclude a person from being suitable. I know this, you know this, lets hope the Inquiry also takes this line and instigates changes so that arrangements such as the jetstar cadetship can no longer happen.

[The Kelpie]

GG

Yes from 2009 would be about right. These guys are still out there, some flying in GA and some not at all. Either way contaminated or so the story goes.

I guess the recruitment files disappeared into the ether with the MH and the Qantas HR department. The records of these cadets will be buried in some archive room by now!!

Wonder if Qantas remember they still exist??

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[melbourneuniboy]

Do you have any figures of how many of the Qantas cadets actually missed out? Or is it being blown out of proportion?

Essentially those graduated 2009 and 2010 are not with Qantas mainline or any of the traditional industry companies.

They are either working at flying school, normal GA companies or outside of aviation.

Those who graduated 2007, 2008 (and maybe even years before that) are working doing Industry Experience.

Wonder if Qantas remember they still exist??

Well the manager of them at the moment has that rolled tacked onto the end of her other role and seems to be focusing more on her original role.

[The Kelpie]

2 intakes from the Commercial Stream at Parafield plus a couple of intakes from both Swinburne and Griffith on the Ab-initio stream.

I guess possibly 20??

[DUXNUTZ]

Amazing

As a one-time contestant on the wheel of fortune (QF Cadetship) i find it amazing that Qantas have let their last two years worth of courses hanging and maybe a turn of good luck i didn't go down that path.