Jetstar cadets grounded
Can someone please post the AFAP's briefing note here.
As it was written on the 16th of March, it's a tad out of date now.
At least I know my union is against cadets flying in Australia whilst not under the EBA.
Now what?
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Email from AIPA received today:
Jetstar Cadets
Recently questions were asked about the Jetstar cadet pilots and their status. It must be noted first that these pilots are all Australian residents, born and bred Australians – some of them have never been in New Zealand before. It seems that on commencement of this program the young pilots were sent to New Zealand for 3 days and asked to set up a New Zealand bank account and secure a New Zealand Tax File Number. Once this was done, these pilots were sent to the United Kingdom for their A320 training and when they arrived back in Australia they commenced their line training with Jetstar in Australia.
The current legislation in New Zealand precludes pilots flying a High Capacity airliner with less than 500 hours, so for so-called New Zealand based crew they were not entitled to operate in New Zealand. These pilots have been stood down and will be advised of their contract requirements shortly. AIPA has recruited these pilots and is supporting them through this harrowing time. AIPA is keeping a close eye on developments and we are keeping all relevant parties, including the Senate Inquiry, informed. It would be interesting to know what Jetstar would have done if this was not brought to the attention of the Senate Inquiry and the media.
Jetstar Cadets
Recently questions were asked about the Jetstar cadet pilots and their status. It must be noted first that these pilots are all Australian residents, born and bred Australians – some of them have never been in New Zealand before. It seems that on commencement of this program the young pilots were sent to New Zealand for 3 days and asked to set up a New Zealand bank account and secure a New Zealand Tax File Number. Once this was done, these pilots were sent to the United Kingdom for their A320 training and when they arrived back in Australia they commenced their line training with Jetstar in Australia.
The current legislation in New Zealand precludes pilots flying a High Capacity airliner with less than 500 hours, so for so-called New Zealand based crew they were not entitled to operate in New Zealand. These pilots have been stood down and will be advised of their contract requirements shortly. AIPA has recruited these pilots and is supporting them through this harrowing time. AIPA is keeping a close eye on developments and we are keeping all relevant parties, including the Senate Inquiry, informed. It would be interesting to know what Jetstar would have done if this was not brought to the attention of the Senate Inquiry and the media.
Last edited by Popgun; 23rd Mar 2011 at 14:17.
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AH
All of the 4 cadets are Australian PR or citizens. The AIPA statement does not extend to other DE FOs into either JQ Aisa or JQ New Zealand who are undertaking line training in Australia. Line Training is Line Operations which is by definition work, and given the existence of the JQ EBA should be carried out under this document. It is possible that some of these individuals employed by other JQ entities will not have the right to work in Australia and this should be reported to both the Union and the Immigration 'Dob in line' if there are grounds for suspicion.
All of the 4 cadets are Australian PR or citizens. The AIPA statement does not extend to other DE FOs into either JQ Aisa or JQ New Zealand who are undertaking line training in Australia. Line Training is Line Operations which is by definition work, and given the existence of the JQ EBA should be carried out under this document. It is possible that some of these individuals employed by other JQ entities will not have the right to work in Australia and this should be reported to both the Union and the Immigration 'Dob in line' if there are grounds for suspicion.
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Kelpie,
I just thought that the statement is a little misleading when it says 'all cadets are Australian residents, born and bred in Australia' when I know for a fact altleast one of them is from the South Island of New Zealand.
I just thought that the statement is a little misleading when it says 'all cadets are Australian residents, born and bred in Australia' when I know for a fact altleast one of them is from the South Island of New Zealand.
Am i missing something?
Didn't Qantas train Jetconnect pilots on Australian sectors? Surely these guys weren't being payed $AUS while they where doing this. Whats the difference with the Jetstar case? Airlines all over the world train other airlines pilots on revenue sectors often so they can gain the required experience during an introduction of type.
Just to clarify, i don't agree with what is going on at all, and i don't have a lot of sympathy for these cadets either, am actually a bit peeved union dues are being used to help them. Its not as if every other pilot in the industry didn't warn them!
And Kelpie, great work, i don't think you will ever have to buy a drink when there is another pilot in the room!
Just to clarify, i don't agree with what is going on at all, and i don't have a lot of sympathy for these cadets either, am actually a bit peeved union dues are being used to help them. Its not as if every other pilot in the industry didn't warn them!
And Kelpie, great work, i don't think you will ever have to buy a drink when there is another pilot in the room!
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AH
ah right. As you will be aware New Zealand citizens have the right of residency in Australia so likely to be no problem with immigration, just the issue of complying with Australian employment legislation. Which the NZ contracts clearly do not.
Cheers
Kelpie
ah right. As you will be aware New Zealand citizens have the right of residency in Australia so likely to be no problem with immigration, just the issue of complying with Australian employment legislation. Which the NZ contracts clearly do not.
Cheers
Kelpie
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ANCDU
Thanks for the support.
Yes it happened at Jetconnect too.
Perhaps the union could look into the opportunity to claim the validity of the Qantas EBA for the Jetconnect Pilots given their initial days on the job are effectively as Qantas pilots flying VH Reg Aircraft, from an Australian Base, flying Qantas owned aircraft, wearing qantas uniforms, paid by Qantas etc etc. with a NZ contract that is clearly invalid in Australia ! Hint hint
The big question for Jetconnect pilots is "what contract am I actually employed under?" you might be surprised that what you thought was your contract legally is not!! But that is what the jetconnect FWA case is partly about.
The NZ contracts were signed prior to commencing line training and, given that when line training started in Australia these NZ contracts may be held to be invalid and therefore a pilot, on commencing work would effectively be a contract under performance. In this case I would suggest that this would automatically default to the collective agreement in place in the absence of any other legally enforceable contract in Australia being in place.
Oh and don't forget backpay!!
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The Kelpie
Thanks for the support.
Yes it happened at Jetconnect too.
Perhaps the union could look into the opportunity to claim the validity of the Qantas EBA for the Jetconnect Pilots given their initial days on the job are effectively as Qantas pilots flying VH Reg Aircraft, from an Australian Base, flying Qantas owned aircraft, wearing qantas uniforms, paid by Qantas etc etc. with a NZ contract that is clearly invalid in Australia ! Hint hint
The big question for Jetconnect pilots is "what contract am I actually employed under?" you might be surprised that what you thought was your contract legally is not!! But that is what the jetconnect FWA case is partly about.
The NZ contracts were signed prior to commencing line training and, given that when line training started in Australia these NZ contracts may be held to be invalid and therefore a pilot, on commencing work would effectively be a contract under performance. In this case I would suggest that this would automatically default to the collective agreement in place in the absence of any other legally enforceable contract in Australia being in place.
Oh and don't forget backpay!!
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 23rd Mar 2011 at 23:19.
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So I was having a read of the Pilots Award 2010 and it states that the minimum wage for a full time pilot employed by an airline on narrow body jet aircraft is $71,397. I assume this is what the cadet pilots are now getting paid, or in other words approx. $99,000 new zealand dollars which is around $35,000 per annum MORE than a Jetstar NZ First Officer!! 
Bruce, Bruce, Bruce.... And here I was thinking that part of the reason for starting a cadet scheme was because you couldn't fill the FO positions in NZ without a significant increase in the FO's wage so you thought the answer was to employ cadets on $42,000 NZD to solve that problem. What a ****
Bruce, Bruce, Bruce.... And here I was thinking that part of the reason for starting a cadet scheme was because you couldn't fill the FO positions in NZ without a significant increase in the FO's wage so you thought the answer was to employ cadets on $42,000 NZD to solve that problem. What a ****
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AH
Know the award. 71k is the base salary, in addition there are plenty of additional payments for various things. I reckon base is around 77k plus super plus a reasonable level of allowances.
The new contract is being issued under a different entity 'jetstar group'
The unions must stop this now as it is clearly not in the spirit or compliant with the obligations of the EBA
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The Kelpie
Know the award. 71k is the base salary, in addition there are plenty of additional payments for various things. I reckon base is around 77k plus super plus a reasonable level of allowances.
The new contract is being issued under a different entity 'jetstar group'
The unions must stop this now as it is clearly not in the spirit or compliant with the obligations of the EBA
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The Kelpie
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WHAT THE? My Union is spending my dues on this?
Methinks this should stop until the cadets are >50% unionised. Of course, I respect that there may be more at play than I know; perhaps the professional unionist know of a broader strategy... but I am not yet convinced.
FRQ CB
Methinks this should stop until the cadets are >50% unionised. Of course, I respect that there may be more at play than I know; perhaps the professional unionist know of a broader strategy... but I am not yet convinced.
FRQ CB
The "broader strategy" is clearly to get them on the Australian EBA. AIPA (or the AFAP or whoever they choose) is unable to represent these pilots in negotiations unless those pilots nominate them to negotiate on their behalf, which, I believe, includes membership of the applicable association.
Methinks this should stop until the cadets are >50% unionised. Of course, I respect that there may be more at play than I know; perhaps the professional unionist know of a broader strategy... but I am not yet convinced.
It's damage control. They don't deserve our help, but by getting onto the EBA we are helping ourselves.
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Clarification
Folks,
I'm sure I will be corrected if I am not reading this properly...
The JetConnect training was conducted on the basis that they were returning to operate in NZ after CTL, which they did and which was consistent with normal practice of providing line experience for start-ups.
Jetstar (Westaway?) said that they always intended that the cadets would be transferred onto Oz contracts - which suggests that there was no intention of them leaving the country a la JetConnect.
Despite the intention to get them onto Oz contracts, there was never one available until the cobbled together Modern award version was offered on Wednesday.
No consultation occurred between Jetstar and AIPA (or AFAP??) before the Modern Award contract was offered to the cadets.
No AIPA dollars were spent on the issue other than the brief time spent recruiting the cadets. However, once recruited, they are entitled to be represented as fully as any other member and dollars will be spent reinforcing the basis on which all members' interests are protected now and in the future.
Bringing them in from the cold was a far better strategy to provide legal 'standing' in any industrial activity, compared with just talking about it.
There is nothing other than the reaction of the workforce to constrain how an employer chooses to employ people - nothing legally forces Jetstar to employ pilots on the EBA.
Have I got that right?
Stay Alive,
I'm sure I will be corrected if I am not reading this properly...
The JetConnect training was conducted on the basis that they were returning to operate in NZ after CTL, which they did and which was consistent with normal practice of providing line experience for start-ups.
Jetstar (Westaway?) said that they always intended that the cadets would be transferred onto Oz contracts - which suggests that there was no intention of them leaving the country a la JetConnect.
Despite the intention to get them onto Oz contracts, there was never one available until the cobbled together Modern award version was offered on Wednesday.
No consultation occurred between Jetstar and AIPA (or AFAP??) before the Modern Award contract was offered to the cadets.
No AIPA dollars were spent on the issue other than the brief time spent recruiting the cadets. However, once recruited, they are entitled to be represented as fully as any other member and dollars will be spent reinforcing the basis on which all members' interests are protected now and in the future.
Bringing them in from the cold was a far better strategy to provide legal 'standing' in any industrial activity, compared with just talking about it.
There is nothing other than the reaction of the workforce to constrain how an employer chooses to employ people - nothing legally forces Jetstar to employ pilots on the EBA.
Have I got that right?
Stay Alive,
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4 Dogs
You are not far off the mark with that summary, however I would make the following comments
You are correct, however the undertaking of Line Training is done during normal Line Operations in Qantas Aircraft on Qantas routes from a Qantas base. Whilst you say this is normal practice you are still carrying out work in Australia for an Australian Company that should be remunerated at the rates prescribed by Australian Employment Legislation or the relevant EBA if appropriate. The NZ employment contract is invalid in Australia. Additionally, while Qantas seeks to bring it's pilots from all over the globe and have them undertake their line training in Australia this is effectively reducing the need for Australian based Qantas pilots who ar remunerated on the EBA. If allowed to continue with this strategy, Qantas will only employ Training Captains and all FO requirements will be resourced by pilots from other countrys undertaking line training.
Don't believe a word that Westaway says, he couldn't lie straight in bed!!! The only reason that he said that is because Jetstar got caught out!!! The information passed to the Oxford Jetstar Cadets was clear that the intention was to employ under a NZ individual contract for a period of 6 years despite the original CASA approval allowing cadets only to operate from certain Australian bases. Whilst the contract did contain provisions for LWOP to take up an Aussie base the intention was that this would always be at the rate of pay in the NZ contract. The inquiry has already seen that CASA approved the cadet programme with conditions as to bases at which Cadets may operate from and it seems that this may be the subject of suspicions of foul play as those bases have now effectively been deleted. I understand McCormick has been asked to report back to the Senate Committee on this point.
For a Cadet to take up LWOP would mean that thre would need to be a vacancy at one of those bases. In addition to the many Jetstar Pilots who through the Seniority system are entitled to bid for alternative bases the information I have is that there is also a healthy holding pool of pre-assessed and interviewed pilots waiting to join Jetstar Airways Limited but they are constrantly being advised by email that there are no vacancies in the Australian Operation but feel free to express interest in the New Zealand and Singapore operations where vacancies do exist.
No. Jetstar Airways Limited are bound to employ everyone on the EBA. The new contract is being offerred by a different Company 'Jetstar Group', another 'franchise operator come Sham company' in the Qantas Group Franchise.
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The Kelpie
You are not far off the mark with that summary, however I would make the following comments
The JetConnect training was conducted on the basis that they were returning to operate in NZ after CTL, which they did and which was consistent with normal practice of providing line experience for start-ups.
Jetstar (Westaway?) said that they always intended that the cadets would be transferred onto Oz contracts - which suggests that there was no intention of them leaving the country a la JetConnect.
For a Cadet to take up LWOP would mean that thre would need to be a vacancy at one of those bases. In addition to the many Jetstar Pilots who through the Seniority system are entitled to bid for alternative bases the information I have is that there is also a healthy holding pool of pre-assessed and interviewed pilots waiting to join Jetstar Airways Limited but they are constrantly being advised by email that there are no vacancies in the Australian Operation but feel free to express interest in the New Zealand and Singapore operations where vacancies do exist.
There is nothing other than the reaction of the workforce to constrain how an employer chooses to employ people - nothing legally forces Jetstar to employ pilots on the EBA.
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The Kelpie
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Sitting next to a certain person very high up in the food chain on a flight recently, (not management) I was told there is NO J AUST HOLD FILE.
It simply does not exist.
You go to the interview and if sucessful are told you can bend over and start straight away in Sing or NZ or wait for an Australian base on the imaginary Aussie hold file.
A good mate of mine had been waiting for an Aussie base since March 2010 but recently started some where else.
J are laughing all the way to the bank because they make money by charging people to be interviewed anyway so they don't care if you are on the imaginary hold file for 17 years before moving on with your life.
What an industry!
It simply does not exist.
You go to the interview and if sucessful are told you can bend over and start straight away in Sing or NZ or wait for an Australian base on the imaginary Aussie hold file.
A good mate of mine had been waiting for an Aussie base since March 2010 but recently started some where else.
J are laughing all the way to the bank because they make money by charging people to be interviewed anyway so they don't care if you are on the imaginary hold file for 17 years before moving on with your life.
What an industry!
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Boney
I have evidence it does indeed exist!!
Guys, all of the evidence is out there to nail these guys but it is widely disseminated so that the whole picture cannot be proved easily. Each one of you are in possession of information which you feel is insignificant, which considered in isolation may be the case however do not underestimate the power of that piece of information to complete the jigsaw.
The Senate Inquiry is receiving all of these pieces and putting them together and getting a very clear picture of what and who is causing safety in the Australian Aviation Industry to be compromised.
It is a similar principle as to why the US government did not see September 11 coming, many deprtments had snippets of information that they did not share and consequently whole jigsaw was not pieced together to reveal the threat until it was too late.
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The Kelpie
I have evidence it does indeed exist!!
Guys, all of the evidence is out there to nail these guys but it is widely disseminated so that the whole picture cannot be proved easily. Each one of you are in possession of information which you feel is insignificant, which considered in isolation may be the case however do not underestimate the power of that piece of information to complete the jigsaw.
The Senate Inquiry is receiving all of these pieces and putting them together and getting a very clear picture of what and who is causing safety in the Australian Aviation Industry to be compromised.
It is a similar principle as to why the US government did not see September 11 coming, many deprtments had snippets of information that they did not share and consequently whole jigsaw was not pieced together to reveal the threat until it was too late.
More to Follow
The Kelpie