Carlisle
Barnaby the Bear & bad bear
SEN has an NDB, SEN has radar and SEN also has ILS. I guess you forgot about the last item.
Stobart's plans for CAX include strengthening/resurfacing the existing runway, so the current weight limit for ATMs will be lifted. This will result in Q400/ATR capability which will be more than sufficient to establish scheduled services. The AMS will quite likely be operated as a one-stop, through flight via SEN which should ensure its viability and once SEN's rail station is open it will offer transit times from touchdown to arrival in the City or Docklands faster than either STN or LTN.
goatface
You underestimate the strength of a Section 106 Agreement. It becomes an element of the planning consent and any breach of it would nullify the consent. There is no way that Stobart could just ignore its requirements. I also understand that the runway and terminal work will not cost anything like £23 million now as a newly built hangar will be finished as the terminal building and Stobart Rail will do the runway work, thus keeping it all in-house.
Regardless of any scepticism shown by recent posts, developing CAX in this way and linking it to the developments at SEN to which Stobart are also committed, makes good economic sense. I believe the work will go ahead and that a limited number of scheduled services will be available from CAX within the next 18 months. The fact that Andrew Tinkler has said this is what he wants to see is not the least of the reasons why I believe it will happen - he is not known for backing away from commitments made.
SEN has an NDB, SEN has radar and SEN also has ILS. I guess you forgot about the last item.
Stobart's plans for CAX include strengthening/resurfacing the existing runway, so the current weight limit for ATMs will be lifted. This will result in Q400/ATR capability which will be more than sufficient to establish scheduled services. The AMS will quite likely be operated as a one-stop, through flight via SEN which should ensure its viability and once SEN's rail station is open it will offer transit times from touchdown to arrival in the City or Docklands faster than either STN or LTN.
goatface
You underestimate the strength of a Section 106 Agreement. It becomes an element of the planning consent and any breach of it would nullify the consent. There is no way that Stobart could just ignore its requirements. I also understand that the runway and terminal work will not cost anything like £23 million now as a newly built hangar will be finished as the terminal building and Stobart Rail will do the runway work, thus keeping it all in-house.
Regardless of any scepticism shown by recent posts, developing CAX in this way and linking it to the developments at SEN to which Stobart are also committed, makes good economic sense. I believe the work will go ahead and that a limited number of scheduled services will be available from CAX within the next 18 months. The fact that Andrew Tinkler has said this is what he wants to see is not the least of the reasons why I believe it will happen - he is not known for backing away from commitments made.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Expressflight.
OK, I accept that politics will rule the day on that one, although I know that the existing runway and airport infrastructure is totally unsuitable for any sort of operations by any aircraft of significant size.
Its not just a case of chucking down a bit of tarmac and putting up a Dutch Barn for a hangar.
The redevelopment requires a complete refurbishment and extension of the runway to allow a landing and take off distance of around 1800m or more.
This, along with the rebuilding of taxiways and apron, new runway lighting and approach aids is going to cost in the region of £20m. Don't forget that this all has to be done to CAA standards - not Stobart railway's.
Clearly many posters here have no idea what it costs to build and operate an airport or of what airlines demand in respect of start up costs.
Stobart Group may have made a profit of £23m, but they also have a group debt of £121m.
Their assets being little more than the debt, they are going to struggle to convince their shareholders and bankers that spending in excess of £20m with no projected return on the investment in the immediate future, is a viable proposition.
Pie in the sky.
OK, I accept that politics will rule the day on that one, although I know that the existing runway and airport infrastructure is totally unsuitable for any sort of operations by any aircraft of significant size.
Its not just a case of chucking down a bit of tarmac and putting up a Dutch Barn for a hangar.
The redevelopment requires a complete refurbishment and extension of the runway to allow a landing and take off distance of around 1800m or more.
This, along with the rebuilding of taxiways and apron, new runway lighting and approach aids is going to cost in the region of £20m. Don't forget that this all has to be done to CAA standards - not Stobart railway's.
Clearly many posters here have no idea what it costs to build and operate an airport or of what airlines demand in respect of start up costs.
Stobart Group may have made a profit of £23m, but they also have a group debt of £121m.
Their assets being little more than the debt, they are going to struggle to convince their shareholders and bankers that spending in excess of £20m with no projected return on the investment in the immediate future, is a viable proposition.
Pie in the sky.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the western edge of The Moor
Age: 67
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Though I accept there is some "spin" in this document it does address a number of points
http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/doc...leafletNEW.pdf
Though you probably already know, as existing
25 TORA 1714m, TODA, 1824m, ASDA 1714m, LDA 1468m
07 TORA 1659m, TODA 1777m, ASDA 1659m, LDA 1321m
from NATS - AIS
I am fairly sure that they do know that it will have to meet CAA requirements!
http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/doc...leafletNEW.pdf
Though you probably already know, as existing
25 TORA 1714m, TODA, 1824m, ASDA 1714m, LDA 1468m
07 TORA 1659m, TODA 1777m, ASDA 1659m, LDA 1321m
from NATS - AIS
I am fairly sure that they do know that it will have to meet CAA requirements!
Last edited by west lakes; 14th May 2009 at 20:16.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Expressflght.
You have expressed your views eliquently and with courtesy, but the facts at Carlisle Airport and the redevelopment required to bring it up to the standards required speak for themselves.
Nothing would please me more than to see a new regional airport rise from the ashes, but in this case, even at the best of economic times, it just isn't financially viable.
Regards,
GF.
You have expressed your views eliquently and with courtesy, but the facts at Carlisle Airport and the redevelopment required to bring it up to the standards required speak for themselves.
Nothing would please me more than to see a new regional airport rise from the ashes, but in this case, even at the best of economic times, it just isn't financially viable.
Regards,
GF.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Shirley an RNAV (GNSS) NPA at both ends of Carlisle's runway would offer greater regularity than wartime technology NDBs?
Once EGNOG is approved, then APV will provide a CAT l type of GPS approach ideal for any Cumbrian operation - and with the possibility of CAT lll once GBAS arrives.
Don't miss- over -estimate Stobbar Air, they know what they are doing.
Sir George Cayley
Once EGNOG is approved, then APV will provide a CAT l type of GPS approach ideal for any Cumbrian operation - and with the possibility of CAT lll once GBAS arrives.
Don't miss- over -estimate Stobbar Air, they know what they are doing.
Sir George Cayley
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: London Whipsnade Wildlife Park
Posts: 5,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carlisle - Southend - Rochford - City of London
is quicker than....
Carlisle - Luton - Parkway - City of London?
Have you read NATS Airspace Change proposals?
Going to be a long haul to Southend!
is quicker than....
Carlisle - Luton - Parkway - City of London?
Have you read NATS Airspace Change proposals?
Going to be a long haul to Southend!
Buster,
You misread what I wrote.
I said that transit times from touchdown SEN to arrival in the City or Docklands will be faster than from either STN or LTN and I stand by that statement.
As far as an airways routing CAX to SEN is concerned, as you know the airspace changes originally proposed by NATS are being looked at again in light of the representations received.
You misread what I wrote.
I said that transit times from touchdown SEN to arrival in the City or Docklands will be faster than from either STN or LTN and I stand by that statement.
As far as an airways routing CAX to SEN is concerned, as you know the airspace changes originally proposed by NATS are being looked at again in light of the representations received.
Interesting quote from Andrew Tinkler in the Cumberland News:
“Southend Airport is on 360 acres and at the moment it supports 1,400 jobs, all of them linked to aviation services: things like maintaining and refurbishing planes. There are 40 different companies based there. Carlisle Airport could be a mirror image of Southend Airport in the north, but with cheaper assets. The airport here is 460 acres. It could be a regional centre for aviation services, with even more potential than Southend Airport.”
The Stobart Group Extraordinary General Meeting held on Saturday duly passed the resolution to purchase Carlisle Airport.
I had been planned that the purchase itself would be completed the same day although I cannot confirm that that actually happened. It will be interesting to see how quickly the infrastructure improvements, in terms of resurfacing/strengthening the runway and providing a passenger terminal, will be put in place. That will obviously be the determining factor for a possible timetable for any commencement of their hoped for CAX-SEN scheduled service.
I had been planned that the purchase itself would be completed the same day although I cannot confirm that that actually happened. It will be interesting to see how quickly the infrastructure improvements, in terms of resurfacing/strengthening the runway and providing a passenger terminal, will be put in place. That will obviously be the determining factor for a possible timetable for any commencement of their hoped for CAX-SEN scheduled service.
Luton chief accepts airport director job at Carlisle
From the News and Star:
Carlisle Airport has recruited the operations director of London Luton Airport to spearhead its expansion. Andy Judge, 50, will take over as airport director at Carlisle in late September.
The high-profile appointment signals the intent of airport-owner Stobart Group to drive forward its plans for passenger flights and air freight.
Mr Judge said: “There’s a great deal of opportunity and potential at Carlisle. Passenger flights haven’t been on the cards for a while but that doesn’t mean they won’t be in the future. Flights are operated by airlines. The airport’s job is to provide the infrastructure and that’s where I come in.”
Mr Judge was born in north London and served as air crew in the RAF for 17 years. He was general manager operations at Bournemouth Airport from 1998 to 2001, then operations manager at Leeds Bradford before moving to London Luton in 2006.
He is married, with a grown-up son and daughter. He and his wife Sue plan to move to the Keswick area. Mr Judge replaces Richard Gordon, who has been airport director for six years. He is retiring but will stay on until the spring to ensure a smooth hand over.
Alastair Welch, managing director of Stobart Air, said: “Richard has been an invaluable and popular member of the team and we wish him the very best for his retirement. We look forward to welcoming Andy to lead the team in Carlisle as the airport moves into a very exciting phase of its development.”
The high-profile appointment signals the intent of airport-owner Stobart Group to drive forward its plans for passenger flights and air freight.
Mr Judge said: “There’s a great deal of opportunity and potential at Carlisle. Passenger flights haven’t been on the cards for a while but that doesn’t mean they won’t be in the future. Flights are operated by airlines. The airport’s job is to provide the infrastructure and that’s where I come in.”
Mr Judge was born in north London and served as air crew in the RAF for 17 years. He was general manager operations at Bournemouth Airport from 1998 to 2001, then operations manager at Leeds Bradford before moving to London Luton in 2006.
He is married, with a grown-up son and daughter. He and his wife Sue plan to move to the Keswick area. Mr Judge replaces Richard Gordon, who has been airport director for six years. He is retiring but will stay on until the spring to ensure a smooth hand over.
Alastair Welch, managing director of Stobart Air, said: “Richard has been an invaluable and popular member of the team and we wish him the very best for his retirement. We look forward to welcoming Andy to lead the team in Carlisle as the airport moves into a very exciting phase of its development.”
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy Judge has (alledgedly) considerable experience:
Current•Operations Director at London Luton Airport
Andrew Judge’s Experience
Operations Director
London Luton Airport
October 2006 — Present (2 years 10 months)
Operations Director
Leeds Bradford Airport
November 2001 — September 2006 (4 years 11 months)
GM Operations
Bournemouth Airport
January 1998 — November 2001 (3 years 11 months) .
Given all this, it has to be asked why he has given up such a good career to leave Luton and take on the poisened chalice and airport with no future that is Carlisle.
I'd love to hear his version of events.
After their purchase and promised development of Southend (which has now met severe opposition from the local authority) Stobart simply don't have the funds to develop Carlisle as an airport, however, they could easily attract investment to continue it's expansion as an industrial estate, which I suspect was their intention all along and still is.
Prove me otherwise.
Current•Operations Director at London Luton Airport
Andrew Judge’s Experience
Operations Director
London Luton Airport
October 2006 — Present (2 years 10 months)
Operations Director
Leeds Bradford Airport
November 2001 — September 2006 (4 years 11 months)
GM Operations
Bournemouth Airport
January 1998 — November 2001 (3 years 11 months) .
Given all this, it has to be asked why he has given up such a good career to leave Luton and take on the poisened chalice and airport with no future that is Carlisle.
I'd love to hear his version of events.
After their purchase and promised development of Southend (which has now met severe opposition from the local authority) Stobart simply don't have the funds to develop Carlisle as an airport, however, they could easily attract investment to continue it's expansion as an industrial estate, which I suspect was their intention all along and still is.
Prove me otherwise.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern spain
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy Judge
What I have heard for the time that Mr Judge has been at Luton there will be not many tears shed by the employees at the airport now that he is departing. When he first arrived he insisted that all B767 aircraft and similar size types had to be tugged onto stand along the Alpha taxiway from abeam the old Britannia (now easyJet) hangar plus no B757 could be parked on stand half which is located outside the hangar although the airport had worked without incident for many years. The towing situation was resolved after some time with the aircraft now allowed to taxi under its own power.
Strange he is leaving from the fifth busiest airport in the UK to some backwater in Cumbria.
Strange he is leaving from the fifth busiest airport in the UK to some backwater in Cumbria.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: london
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remember, the revenue attraction of airports, for non-aero-business investors, is not the landing/handling charges for hulls, freight and pax, but is the property play. Stobart began by hubbing Scotch distribution, then redeveloping railyards; Crosby's potential (like SEN's) is as a distribution/light industrial village, convenient by road to a hefty catchment, linked by the (short-haul) runway into all those world-reaching, multi-modal, 24/7 Chateauroux and Leipzigs. Expect very modest pax throughput: FR/Prestwick/Blackpool, EZ/Newcastle/Abbotsinch well-established: recall Lakeside Jetstream (and numerous SEN bandits)...and be humble.
Goatface
I'm sorry to have to disagree with you again (it seems to be becoming a habit), but it is not true to say that "Southend ...... has now met serious opposition from the local authority". Both SBC and RDC are still supportive of the plans to develop SEN into a 2mppa regional airport with a runway extended to 1,799m. All that has happened recently is that the vocal opposition of some residents under the 24 departure flight path has rattled some Councillors who fear a loss of votes, so nothing new there.
I believe that Stobart do have the funding to redevelop CAX itself, and they are committed to doing so by the Section 106 agreement which forms part of the planning consent for the construction of their new HQ and warehouse complex on site. I'm sure that Andrew Judge will have sought, and been given, firm assurances as to what form the development will take.
In order to gain the current planning consent they had to reduce the size of the warehousing they planned to build, so any attempt to further industrialise the airport is likely to be doomed to failure as it would fall outside of that allowed under the local plan.
tornadoken
I assume you're saying that CAX will only find a market as a freight feeder into/from the main European hubs and that must certainly be one of the things that Stobarts are looking at, but I think you dismiss any pax potential too readily. I see no reason why it's local market and inbound tourism should not support a modest number of business/leisure routes and I doubt that FR are on their radar for commercial reasons. There must certainly be the possibility a CAX-London(SEN) service with that feeding into, say, a SEN-AMS route for starters. I for one would not have expected Newquay, which has a similar catchment population to Carlisle, to have been as successful as it now is so don't write off Carlisle's chances in the pax stakes just yet.
I'm sorry to have to disagree with you again (it seems to be becoming a habit), but it is not true to say that "Southend ...... has now met serious opposition from the local authority". Both SBC and RDC are still supportive of the plans to develop SEN into a 2mppa regional airport with a runway extended to 1,799m. All that has happened recently is that the vocal opposition of some residents under the 24 departure flight path has rattled some Councillors who fear a loss of votes, so nothing new there.
I believe that Stobart do have the funding to redevelop CAX itself, and they are committed to doing so by the Section 106 agreement which forms part of the planning consent for the construction of their new HQ and warehouse complex on site. I'm sure that Andrew Judge will have sought, and been given, firm assurances as to what form the development will take.
In order to gain the current planning consent they had to reduce the size of the warehousing they planned to build, so any attempt to further industrialise the airport is likely to be doomed to failure as it would fall outside of that allowed under the local plan.
tornadoken
I assume you're saying that CAX will only find a market as a freight feeder into/from the main European hubs and that must certainly be one of the things that Stobarts are looking at, but I think you dismiss any pax potential too readily. I see no reason why it's local market and inbound tourism should not support a modest number of business/leisure routes and I doubt that FR are on their radar for commercial reasons. There must certainly be the possibility a CAX-London(SEN) service with that feeding into, say, a SEN-AMS route for starters. I for one would not have expected Newquay, which has a similar catchment population to Carlisle, to have been as successful as it now is so don't write off Carlisle's chances in the pax stakes just yet.
compton3bravo
Hmmm....
I'm tempted to bookmark that post for future use.......
So you really don't think a CAX-SEN scheduled service will be launched in the next year or so?
Hmmm....
I'm tempted to bookmark that post for future use.......
So you really don't think a CAX-SEN scheduled service will be launched in the next year or so?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: southern spain
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Proposed passenger services
I am not saying that a Carlisle-Southend service would start - I am all for any new routes from any airport - good for the industry and jobs- but cannot seeing it work unfortunately.
While I was working for an aviation journal in the mid-1980s an airline which name I cannot remember, commenced a twice daily Carlisle-London Heathrow service with a HS.748. My editor went on a press jolly and everybody on board wished it well but said that it would not get the passengers to make it viable and remember there was no Prestwick-Stansted service in those days - it lasted only a few months.
I see you are in France and I now live in Spain so will have a level €10 if it commences at all and if it does it will not last three months.
I wish them well at Carlisle but I just cannot see it succeeding especially in these financially stringent times.
While I was working for an aviation journal in the mid-1980s an airline which name I cannot remember, commenced a twice daily Carlisle-London Heathrow service with a HS.748. My editor went on a press jolly and everybody on board wished it well but said that it would not get the passengers to make it viable and remember there was no Prestwick-Stansted service in those days - it lasted only a few months.
I see you are in France and I now live in Spain so will have a level €10 if it commences at all and if it does it will not last three months.
I wish them well at Carlisle but I just cannot see it succeeding especially in these financially stringent times.