Denti,

Take your politics elsewhere, it’s getting very boring now. The guy asked for help so give it to him. NAAs are accepting ATPL exams completed pre brexit, they were informed by EASA.

I can confirm this is correct as my son has just had his UK ATPLs accepted for this very purpose.

Thanks guys,

It just seems unclear at the moment whether this applies to everyone who already have a UK CAA Atpl or current students in the process of obtaining a licence. I've been in touch with a couple authorities and hope to get a better understanding.

Hope the process is simple.

Cheers

I think the problem is that no one really knows at the minute simply because the UK dropped out without a definite agreement in the TCA. There is scope for further agreements which is most likely but when that may be is anyones guess. EASA ought to do the decent thing and offer a simplified process for all those who held EASA licences and completed EASA training courses to be able to re apply for a new EASA licence.

And before Denti comes steaming in crying “third country, third country”, those who attained those Licences pre-Brexit did so as part of and in accordance with all EASA standards and regulations. Allowing those to regain sought privileges gained pre-Brexit is the only sensible way forward. Making them redo the exact same thing they’ve just done is just nonsensical.

For those finishing in 2021 this is where things may take some time to rectify as agreements will have to be sought.

Good luck.

There is no politics, i was just posting the official EASA information. It helps reading their brexit page.

Some NAAs do accept the exams, although EASA rules are very clear and do allow that only for student pilots in an integrated (not modular) program. They might be open to legal challenges, although that is very unlikely.

And no, of course EASA does not have the ability to change primary legislation. Third country license approval, and yes, sadly that is the legal status no matter what happened before, requires at least a Commission Directive like the one i linked above which was actually updated to deal specifically with Brexit in late 2020. That is simply EU rules 101.

The politics part is if there are any negotiations. And no, currently there are no negotiations in that area and there is no desire in the EU to do so as there is no pressing demand from either side, no matter how hard that might hit individuals.

Denti,

Here are two responses from two independent EASA NAAs on this very topic. Where does it say it has to be integrated not modular?

You’re just clogging this thread up with useless information. People have lost their careers and spent thousands of euros and many years training for the privileges that they’ve just had revoked at no fault of their own. Your posts lack fact, tact and serve no purpose other than to rub it in their faces.

Be part of the solution not the problem.

There is also this. FCL.025 (c) (2)

(c) Validity period
(1) .....
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.

Have asked one of the States mentioned above if this means that UK CPL/IR or ATPL holders with exams still valid under this EU law can apply for EASA licences with just the skills test and class 1 to do. Will report back when I hear.

I have queried the above with the IAA and been told that:

1) The allowance for exams applies to student pilots only, not for those who have already got a licence
2) Despite the allowance mentioning exams valid in accordance with FCL.025(c), they see it as FCL.025(c)(1) only and will not accept validity under FCL.025(c)(2).

Ahh, bless. Well excuse (1) is wrong because the 7 year validity becomes live for CPL IR holders on passing their IR and allows them to upgrade to ATPL without taking the ATPL exams again and (2) this is an EU regulation, not in their discretion, so they really should comply. Let's see what Austro say. One often gets answers 'shot from the hip' without proper consideration. Of course this question has only arisen since exit day.

Herein lies the problem whereby suitably experienced Pilots are being made to resit everything needlessly despite having previously held EASA credentials and years of experience behind them. This situation is absurd. Richard, nobody currently knows, not even EASA.

Hi,

I successfully completed mine in 2009. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilie...n_rolleyes.gif

As Alex quote;
FCL.025 (c) states the following:
Validity period(1) The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid:
(i) for the issue of a light aircraft pilot licence or a private pilot licence, for a period of 24 months;
(ii) for the issue of a commercial pilot licence, instrument rating (IR) or en route instrument rating (EIR), for a period of 36 months;
(iii) the periods in (i) and (ii) shall be counted from the day when the pilot successfully completes the theoretical knowledge examination, in accordance with (b)(2).
(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.

Contact Approach

I don't get it? It was clearly spelled out in the lead up to brexit. That in case of a hard brexit that a UK issued pilots licenses would no longer be a valid easa license. I too held a uk licence up to a year or two ago. It was clear to me, even back then. I don't know what to say, If you couldn't SOLI due to being employed by a UK employer, you might have some sort of legal recourse, between you and your current or former employer. But to those who are claiming ignorance, come on guys, you should have known better.

Alex Whittingham

I agree, but unfortunately they no longer even respond to my emails as 'the decision is final'.

Lear999wa,

I have an EASA licence but i don’t wish to join you on your high horse. I may not be directly affected but many of my friends and relatives are and unfortunately for them they are stuck in the mud. Just because you were able to jump ship that’s not to say everyone could. Like i’ve said before there’s absolutely no reason why EASA can’t reissue new EASA licences to those who held them previously pre Brexit, if those individuals so wish, none whatsoever.

Any UK guys who did SOLI manage to get the UK national license back yet ? A “simplified” process doesn’t seem to be delivering yet.

Plenty of European pilots who couldn’t for whatever reason, SOLI back to EASA pre Jan, are now being seriously disadvantaged by EASAs inflexibility.
I get it that EASA would want to make it difficult for third country Pilots (even though the UK have been magnanimous in granting a two year validity for EASA pilots), but to place unnecessary and costly barriers to its own citizens is nuts!

Contact Approach

For the n'th time, how can EASA oversee CAA after a hard Brexit?

That’s not what he’s asking.
It doesn’t require regulatory oversight of the CAA, for EASA to do the right thing and recognise previously held licences. They can do it unilaterally.

The fact they don’t want to, is baffling.
Reminiscent of returning Russian POWs, who were tried as traitors and sent to the Gulags.

Big_D,

For the nth time that’s not what im saying! It’s really simple stuff guys, Jesus.

Blake Seven

There are many people in this situation, including myself. The UK Government led by Alexander de Pfeffel decided to leave professional qualifications and services in general outside the scope of the negotiations. Just to reiterate, it was a political choice.

As such, given that the EU is a rules-based trade organisation, there is no legal basis to recognise the licences.

Why are you not able to grasp the simplicity of what I am saying?

Let me spell it out for you:

My argument has nothing to do with Brexit or the ECJ - nada, nothing, ziltch. The UK may have fallen out of EASA but that happened in 2021 not before.

People have paid money for something that was product EASA, they have the right, particularly if they conducted training in the EU, on EU reg aircraft, with EASA examiners, in full compliance with EASA regs to have that product restored, albeit under a new jurisdiction. Sod the UK, who cares. This has nothing to do with the UK directly, this is purely and simply about restoring what people worked for. They should have the right to have their previously sought qualifications acknowledged. A simple application to a member state for a new licence issue would suffice, as long as proof of compliance pre Brexit was assured, which would simply be any test completed pre 1 Jan 2021. Forget the UK licence, forget third country nonsense and just use the EASA course completion, skills test, ATPL results paperwork. Simple really.

Blake Seven

EU to the UK:
- Do you wish to make a deal on professional qualifications?

UK to the EU:
- No thanks.

EU to the UK:
- No problem. Your decision to be completely out then.

UK to the UK:
- Actually this might create some problems for our infrastructure. Let’s unilaterally recognise EASA Licenses.

UK to the EU:
- WHY WONT YOU RECOGNISE OUR LICENSES WHEN WE VALIDATE YOURS. THIS IS UNFAIR

…..a fairly large and bureaucratic organisation that has more important things to deal with, than disgruntled UK FCL holders. And a country that thinks that it is somehow an equal to a large multinational organisation that it wanted nothing to do with. EU is incredibly rule based and the current third country status was demanded by the UK. Within EASA there is no mechanism to recognise third country licenses; this sadly creates a very peculiar position for those third country license holders that were previously trained within EASA. This is a fact that was known and pointed out to the UK early on in the process, as highlighted in the CAA BREXIT website.

EU regulations have to be ratified by each member state, in order to become national law throughout the EASA membership. Not something that happens overnight. And quite frankly, where is the motivation to make this effort when currently the U.K. isn’t even honouring its existing trade deal with the EU and already asking (demanding) concessions from this deal…

Contact Approach

Unfortunately, when we left in Jan 2021 our EASA licences became nothing more than an ICAO licence. It is not great, but this is what our elected politicians decided. Do not ask me why.

This is not limited to aviation. There is a huge human cost to de Pfeffel's political choices in various sectors of the economy, such as fishing, manufacturing, banking, professional services. All those people who studied in the UK got shafted by the de Pfeffel's administration.

If you live in a EU country I can only advise to lobby your MEP to change the policy and unilaterally recognise our previously held licences. However, given the recent actions of the de Pfeffel's administration, I would not hold my breath.

The problem Big D would be quickly solved in the UK Govt just admitted it had made a mistake (or rather had never thought about it ) and went back to into EASA - that only requires 1 country to do something - not 27

As I live in a constituency represented by an opposition MP I am not even going to bother to lobby to rejoin the EASA.

Things may change under a different administration, but for now we remain outside the EASA.

What has an EASA flight training course, completed in Spain 2020 got to do with Brexit, the UK gov or anything else you keep talking about, for the purpose of applying for a new Spanish EASA licence?

Because the U.K. CAA have been guardians of those licences and since the 1st of Jan there has been no official oversight of the CAA by EASA. So the U.K. CAA could have done anything to those licences without EASA officially knowing. We know they haven’t in practical terms but officially EASA doesn’t. It is bureaucracy pure and simple but that’s the whole point of a rules based organisation. It is that simple. Without official oversight since the first of Jan those licences no longer comply as EASA licences and so cannot be converted to them without following the official procedure. It comes down to as simple a statement as rules is rules. And EASA (nor any EASA member NAA) cannot unilaterally change their own rules without approval through the EU rules making mechanism. But as has been stated it is what the U.K. wished for and has left MANY professionals high and dry.

Again, that is not what i am saying.

Why are EASA course completion certificates and skills tests completed far away from the UK not recognised for the purpose of applying for an initial EASA licence with a new member state. As an initial licence application!

back to Boeing

Not just the professionals, but pensioners abroad as well. But this is what 40% of the voters supported in the 2019 GE, so can't complaint.

I am sorry. But I have had it up to here with all this cakeism and self entitlement.

The UK is a third country to EASA. Exactly as they wanted to be. At their own initiative. Offer of EASA membership post BREXIT was declined by Boris.

The consequences of this decision by the UK, has been crystal clear and expressively laid out in writing. I believe the UK BREXIT Microsite went live early 2018?

Anybody who subsequently went and did pilot training in Spain in 2020, under the UK CAA oversight, failed to do their due diligence.

People who chose to remain in an employment which required a UK issued license, made that decision with the consequences available in black and white.

As one of ‘the three million’ I was faced with the same tough decision as all UK license holders; Do I stay in my current employment and lose EASA privileges. Or do I uproot my wife and kids, sell the house and find a job in the EU? My airline refused to let me SOLI out, and I had to acknowledge I was in charge of my own destiny. Was it an easy decision? Hell no. Am I upset with EASA for simply sticking to the rulebook? For being completely transparent and clear from day one? Deep down I think everybody is well aware of who instigated the current situation and to date keep trying to fit a square pig in a round hole…

I am deeply sympathetic for everyone who got stuck between a rock and a hard place because of BREXIT.
BUT. People need to grow up and stop this cherry picking and end this blame game. You want back into EASA? Welcome back! If not, you are a third country and will be treated exactly like every other third country. Where your training was carried out or which license you held in the past is not relevant. That is the law.

How very condescending, contradictory and frankly stupid. Uprooting during a pandemic in search of new pastures during the worst crises aviation has faced is simply poor judgement and questionable at best.

Still avoiding answering the obvious yet seemingly difficult question.

Do you care to answer why those pilots aren’t simply eligible to apply for a new Spanish licence off the back of their EASA training which was completed with full compliance to EASA standards? What purpose does resitting the exact same training course and skills tests completed all but a few months ago, at the exact same school, in the exact same aircraft with the exact same examiner actually prove?

P.S Some are EU citizens, resident currently in the EU.

how so? The UK is a third country to EASA. Plain and simple. EASA rules do not allow for recognition of third country licenses. No special treatment. What else do you need to know?

You are unable to recognise what it is i am getting at.

Big_D

Yeah, that’s as I see it. But there’s a few conflated opinions on this thread.
Fwiw, I don’t include myself as seeking reissue off an EASA ticket but see a fair few colleagues now having their lives and that of their families turned upside down. Not their fault, advised against converting back to EASA by the Company, so what are they supposed to do?
Not only unable to work in the UK, but spurned by the EU/EASA machine.

Remember, these are EU citizens, not Brits/ 3rd country workers.

Blake Seven,

Finally! Thanks, its simply not a one size fits all kinda problem as you have rightly pointed out.

I understand what you are getting at. But what a lot of people are trying to tell you, is that regardless of what you feel ‘should’ be the case with a former EASA License, this simply is not the way the law is written. You are arguing that a large multinational organisation of 30+ countries should re-write this law, which then has to be ratified by each individual member state. All of this because a former member state left the organisation. Yes?

Contact Approach

But it is something EASA is unable to do anything about. Ask the U.K. government to lobby the EU to make an exception.

I’m unsure who exactly you’re talking about in discussing your Spain ATO example. But it will be a limited amount of people.

EU students with a U.K. licence. Well the writing was on the wall and as has been said whilst spending 100k they should have been doing due diligence. I’m sorry but that’s the harsh reality of it.

U.K. students with a U.K. licence. They wouldn’t have the right to live and work in the EU anyway so only need an U.K. licence.

EU nationals living and working in the U.K. on 31st dec 2020 will still have the right to live and work in the U.K. either through settled or pre settled status. Pretty much every single EU national that was made redundant would have been made redundant in plenty of time to stay their SOLI out process. Those that weren’t made redundant can still use their U.K. licence.

so exactly on who’s behalf are you upset? Before you accuse me of arrogance. It’s bluntness

bittersweetheart

No that is absolutely not what I am saying.

What i am saying is: irrespective of holding a UK licence, why cant individuals re-apply for a new EASA licence, in a new member state for the issue of an new EASA licence based on the EASA training course they completed under the jurisdiction of EASA pre 1 Jan 2021. Documents to be submitted would be the EASA course completion forms compliant to EASA regs and skills tests, again compliant to EASA regs. The UK or holding a Uk licence has nothing to do with this. EASA are already allowing UK exams to be submitted as part of this process.

To make it even simpler for you, lets imagine you’ve just passed your skills tests and you’re applying for your first licence.

So who is salty today?:E

Contact Approach

The Answer: The law does not currently allow for this. No matter how unfair you think it is. Sorry but that is what all of this boils down to

Can you point me in the right direction with reference to EASA regs which says that this is not permitted?