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-   -   Leaving BA for low cost (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/610247-leaving-ba-low-cost.html)

bringbackthe80s 30th July 2019 07:04

This whole thread, starting from the title, is total nonsense.

I'm Off! 30th July 2019 08:23


This whole thread, starting from the title, is total nonsense.
No, it's not. If you think it is, you clearly have no idea what junior life is like on 34PP scale at BA...

Reversethrustset 30th July 2019 09:46


Originally Posted by VJW (Post 10531190)


Funny how people look at things. BA offering a £59k basic to join and easy offered £104k. The roles are very different yes but my family don’t care which seat I sit on. I suggest you don’t look at the BA pay scales as well. The fact it takes 14 years on BA SH lgw to make the basic easy paid me the day I joined...... speaks volumes and it’s why threads like this crop up.

Spot on, VJW, I'm in exactly the same position as yourself. I'm left seat easy now instead of joining BA longhaul, I work hard and I get paid very well. It's all about expectation, the aviation jobs out there that are a cushy number these days are as rare as rocking horse !!!!!. Most of the stress comes from perception and mindset, you just have to be happy with what you've signed on the dotted line for, like how many crew do we know that whinge their tits off when they get called from standby? A standby duty isn't a right to stay at home, you're being called for a duty you should have potentially been doing anyway, if you have the mindset that if you spend it at home it's a bonus then you'll be in a far better place mentally and more relaxed. Being stressed is more fatiguing than being relaxed, if your constantly stressing about a long week ahead then it'll affect you more. I didn't get home till 3am this morning and I have another long night ahead but I'm comfortable with it. I don't feel half as tired as I would if I was whining about it all the time. Pilots are the most highly strung fraternity I've ever known, take a chill pill guys.

Plastic787 30th July 2019 16:15

VJW I get your sentiments but to be fair you can’t really compare a DEC easyJet position to a DEP one at BA financially. It’s fairly obvious that one is going to come out way ahead of the other and different qualifications/experience are required for each, hence it’s apples and oranges, particularly as one who is in a position to apply for Direct Entry Captain already has their command and a certain financial status and, by virtue of their decision to apply to apply for a BA DEP position, is presumably taking a longer term view of things than the immediacy of the first payslip.

Meester proach 31st July 2019 06:11


Originally Posted by Reversethrustset (Post 10531910)
Spot on, VJW, I'm in exactly the same position as yourself. I'm left seat easy now instead of joining BA longhaul, I work hard and I get paid very well. It's all about expectation, the aviation jobs out there that are a cushy number these days are as rare as rocking horse !!!!!. Most of the stress comes from perception and mindset, you just have to be happy with what you've signed on the dotted line for, like how many crew do we know that whinge their tits off when they get called from standby? A standby duty isn't a right to stay at home, you're being called for a duty you should have potentially been doing anyway, if you have the mindset that if you spend it at home it's a bonus then you'll be in a far better place mentally and more relaxed. Being stressed is more fatiguing than being relaxed, if your constantly stressing about a long week ahead then it'll affect you more. I didn't get home till 3am this morning and I have another long night ahead but I'm comfortable with it. I don't feel half as tired as I would if I was whining about it all the time. Pilots are the most highly strung fraternity I've ever known, take a chill pill guys.

I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

UberPilot 31st July 2019 09:20


Originally Posted by Meester proach (Post 10532678)


I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

That’s the point though, if you relax and don’t get stressed about the inevitable slots and delays then perfectly fine! If I’ve got a block of earlier then I go to bed at 8 the Night before and then I’m not tired and actually enjoy the job!

Riskybis 31st July 2019 10:11


Originally Posted by UberPilot (Post 10532814)


That’s the point though, if you relax and don’t get stressed about the inevitable slots and delays then perfectly fine! If I’ve got a block of earlier then I go to bed at 8 the Night before and then I’m not tired and actually enjoy the job!

do you have kids ? Does your other half let you off for going to bed at 8pm ??

VinRouge 31st July 2019 10:25


Originally Posted by Riskybis (Post 10532849)


do you have kids ? Does your other half let you off for going to bed at 8pm ??

yep. Lie ins too after a long trip. It’s about management and fairness. I bring in the coin. She manages the household/kids. I’m amazed at the number of people who seem to have partners that don’t get the requirements of the job, seeming to think that staff travel, cheap luxury holidays and being in the top 3% of Uk household earnings happens support free from the other side of the relationship. If she is earning mega wonga too, why wouldn’t you get an au pair?

RexBanner 31st July 2019 10:37

If you’re someone who can get straight to sleep at 8PM on an early (especially the first night) then you’re a very lucky man and, believe me, very much in the minority.

Reversethrustset 31st July 2019 10:50


Originally Posted by Meester proach (Post 10532678)


I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

Well I'm well into my second decade of flying and being flogged and to be honest my health is fine. I just can't get too stressed about the day to day operation because it just isn't worth it. I've heard my crew moan and whinge over the years about slot delays, tech problems, company decisions etc etc but at the end of the day you won't whinge the issues away so there's no point in letting it get to you. I take every day as it comes and just don't get excitable about much and I have to say my time at work is very relaxed even if it's going to rat sh!t because it's completely out of my hands. Yesterday we were suffering from slot delays and my first officer was whinging the whole day about it, now that was tiresome and fatuiging.

Stone Cold II 31st July 2019 14:58


Originally Posted by Reversethrustset (Post 10532888)
Well I'm well into my second decade of flying and being flogged and to be honest my health is fine. I just can't get too stressed about the day to day operation because it just isn't worth it. I've heard my crew moan and whinge over the years about slot delays, tech problems, company decisions etc etc but at the end of the day you won't whinge the issues away so there's no point in letting it get to you. I take every day as it comes and just don't get excitable about much and I have to say my time at work is very relaxed even if it's going to rat sh!t because it's completely out of my hands. Yesterday we were suffering from slot delays and my first officer was whinging the whole day about it, now that was tiresome and fatuiging.

This sums it up.

Twiglet1 31st July 2019 15:12


Originally Posted by RexBanner (Post 10532876)
If you’re someone who can get straight to sleep at 8PM on an early (especially the first night) then you’re a very lucky man and, believe me, very much in the minority.

Rex - Pilots don't adapt to earlie's, late's or nights - much like everyone else you "manage" by using a host of strategies. There's a lot of science out there to suggest the second early/late/night is worse because having had (ranging from not a lot to a lot) of days off before you bring some sleep "bank" into your first duty.

I don't want to come over too harsh but if your a commuter (I believe you are) your already on the back foot, and unlike a couple of recent posters - your keep letting your head be full of negativity. As my old DFO once said when i complained to him that how come Nigel's (not BA) get £xxx for working one minute into a day off and I got jack all for working 12 hours on a day off - his reply was "go be a Pilot" - So.....

CEJM 31st July 2019 17:11


Originally Posted by Meester proach (Post 10532678)


I’m not sure how you can be relaxed all the time when your health is being degraded by being flogged to death over 40 years.

This reply only shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Having been at EZY now for the last 18 months, I am far from being flogged to death. So far I average just shy of 700 hours for the rolling 12 month period.

Also due to the preferential bidding I tend to only do early flights and two sector days. In general I leave home between 4 and 5am and am back home around 1pm. In my book that is far from being flogged to death. Yes, I do the occasional 4 sector day but on average not more then two per month. In my previous company I would normally fly close to 900 hours a year and most of these were Canaries, Turkey, Cyprus or Egypt so long days out.

Gingerbread Man 31st July 2019 19:16


Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 (Post 10533300)
Where do you get top 3% UK household from?
My misses brings in over £100k me around £50k but we don’t feel well of at all!!!

Institute for Fiscal Studies website puts you and your partner in the top 1% of UK households, never mind 3%. You may not feel well off, but you certainly are. Obviously it depends how much of that income is disposable and what choices you’ve made.

pitotheat 31st July 2019 19:21

CEJM You have been with EZY for 18 months. You know nothing about the long term effects. If you were a member of BALPA you would be aware of the alarming statistics.

PPRuNeUser0204 31st July 2019 19:39

Over 15 years in and yet to suffer burnout. Yes I am tired, but I am not fatigued. When it becomes too much I just call in fatigued.

Yes on earlies I go to bed at 8pm and I have school age children.

er340790 31st July 2019 20:46


Well I'm well into my second decade of flying and being flogged and to be honest my health is fine. I just can't get too stressed about the day to day operation because it just isn't worth it. I've heard my crew moan and whinge over the years about slot delays, tech problems, company decisions etc etc but at the end of the day you won't whinge the issues away so there's no point in letting it get to you. I take every day as it comes and just don't get excitable about much and I have to say my time at work is very relaxed even if it's going to rat sh!t because it's completely out of my hands. Yesterday we were suffering from slot delays and my first officer was whinging the whole day about it, now that was tiresome and fatuiging.
You should consider writing a 'Self-Help Guide for Pilots'. :O :} :ok:

VinRouge 31st July 2019 21:46




Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123 (Post 10533300)



Yeah I wish I could do that.
My my son doesn’t sleep before 8pm.

Where do you get top 3% UK household from?
My misses brings in over £100k me around £50k but we don’t feel well of at all!!!

why does your son going to bed after 8pm affect when you go to bed, or what time you get up? As I said, get an au pair in. Double mega salary requires sacrifice. That’s what we get paid mega bucks for.

i suspect another family chained to the south east rat race. Couldn’t do it myself.

VinRouge 1st August 2019 08:23


Originally Posted by midnight cruiser (Post 10533714)
Given that junior BA short haul (LHS or RHS) is not competitive in any way, I guess we are comparing long haul (BA) to loco short haul. And the health effects of working through the night + jet lag, are proven far far worse than getting up early (especially once you get into the early/late groove. Being in your bed in the wee small hours of the night are crucial to health.

how many hours controlled/in flight rest do you get on Shorthaul?

Rocket Ron 1st August 2019 20:47

As an EZY lifer skipper having just reached 60 I can tell you that the long days just get harder and harder and for us LCC guinea pigs, burn out is a fact, as the 75% of skippers at my base who are part time will testify.

IMHO it’s not just an EZY thing but a fact of life for airline pilots these days. Skin cancer, enlarged prostate, chronic fatigue etc etc are all things you young pups have got to look forward to, trust me.

The advice I give to the youngsters I fly with - get your command, pay off your debts and go part time - then the job is fantastic.




bringbackthe80s 1st August 2019 23:38

Guys have you had a good look at the EASA FTL?? I ask again, have you seen the EASA FTL??? And still people are here lecturing on how to be in bed by 8 p.m!
Unreal.

cessnaxpilot 2nd August 2019 03:07

On the US side we don’t have a “part time” option. Some airlines allow you to drop your schedule and lose pay, but most don’t. A full schedule is anywhere from 12 to 15 days a month.

Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time. I think that’s brilliant... when the kids are young I’d love part time, and now that i have a teenager I’m quite okay working a bit more :-)

Buter 2nd August 2019 03:19


Originally Posted by cessnaxpilot (Post 10534541)
On the US side we don’t have a “part time” option. Some airlines allow you to drop your schedule and lose pay, but most don’t. A full schedule is anywhere from 12 to 15 days a month.

Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time. I think that’s brilliant... when the kids are young I’d love part time, and now that i have a teenager I’m quite okay working a bit more :-)


12-15 days a month would be a part time contract at BA. Even for a part timer (75%), 12 days would be a light month; probably not possible without leave.

B

Dupre 2nd August 2019 07:27


Originally Posted by cessnaxpilot (Post 10534541)
Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time.

I'm new in BA, directly onto long haul. The two months I've had of completely normal roster (no leave or reserve etc) have both been 18 days at work. Both those months have had 5 trips of 3-5 days each plus one month had 2 sim days.

The part time seems to be working the opposite way from how you suggest... more senior pilots seem to be part time as they can no longer handle full time work. Not too many young part timers that I have met. That's just my impression!

BA works well for me personally, much more than a LCC but you can't deny I would be on a lot more money at a LCC - as others have said it will take 14 years to even equal the basic pay of an EZY skipper.

Denti 2nd August 2019 18:52


Originally Posted by cessnaxpilot (Post 10534541)
On the US side we don’t have a “part time” option. Some airlines allow you to drop your schedule and lose pay, but most don’t. A full schedule is anywhere from 12 to 15 days a month.

Im intrigued by all of the discussion of part time. Is that common in Europe? Is it difficult to get? And lastly, how many days is a full schedule and how many is it if working part time. I think that’s brilliant... when the kids are young I’d love part time, and now that i have a teenager I’m quite okay working a bit more :-)

It seems to be kinda common. In germany it is actually a basic workers right to get part time if requested. That can be restricted somewhat by a CLA, for example with quotas depending on "operational needs". Where i work we use a fixed roster, 5 days on, 3 off, 5 days on, 4 off. That is full time. Common part time choices are 7/7, 7 days off and 7 days on including at least one rest/off day and 14/14, 14 days off, a 14 day working block with 9 working days and another 5 rest/off days. The 7/14 days off are planned in a row. On a full time roster i fly around 50 to 60 block hours a month with around double that in duty time during summer, less in winter. And that is LCC work, but a tad lower on hours than most other bases as we do fly a lot of 50 minute domestic sectors.

FlightDetent 2nd August 2019 19:21

n.b. also that the EU-wide law on mobile workers in aviation prescribes a minimum of:
- 4 weeks (24x7) of paid holiday
- plus 96 off days
for every calendar year.

That is the mathematical equivalent of all annual weekend days after having subtracted the 4 weeks of leave. No OFFs for national/bank holidays. Spread evenly over a year (not a realistic scenario), that leaves almost exactly 20 days for duties in each of the months. Thus 75% part-time yields 15 workdays on a long term average - no charity, just crunching numbers.

cessnaxpilot 2nd August 2019 19:42


Originally Posted by FlightDetent (Post 10535212)
n.b. also that the EU-wide law on mobile workers in aviation prescribes a minimum of:
- 4 weeks (24x7) of paid holiday
- plus 96 off days
for every calendar year.

That is the mathematical equivalent of all annual weekend days after having subtracted the 4 weeks of leave. No OFFs for national/bank holidays. Spread evenly over a year (not a realistic scenario), that leaves almost exactly 20 days for duties in each of the months. Thus 75% part-time yields 15 workdays on a long term average - no charity, just crunching numbers.

for the four weeks vacation, does that mean... for example... that if in a normal month you work 15 days, so you use 2 weeks of vacation and now you’re basically off for a month?

simmple 2nd August 2019 20:20

Thread drift!
when I went part time my flying/duty hours increased, the part time guys were rostered the long days but got more days off, invariably starting on the earlies and finishing on the lates. The full time guys got the cushy duties.
Europe short haul.

Twiglet1 3rd August 2019 06:18


Originally Posted by Rocket Ron (Post 10534374)
As an EZY lifer skipper having just reached 60 I can tell you that the long days just get harder and harder and for us LCC guinea pigs, burn out is a fact, as the 75% of skippers at my base who are part time will testify.

IMHO it’s not just an EZY thing but a fact of life for airline pilots these days. Skin cancer, enlarged prostate, chronic fatigue etc etc are all things you young pups have got to look forward to, trust me.

The advice I give to the youngsters I fly with - get your command, pay off your debts and go part time - then the job is fantastic.



Not just Airline Pilots but many people have worked a life time of shifts - particularly night shift workers and all the negatives that go with it. I'm sure also a few of the Airline Pilots who are part time will appreciate these folk don't have the benefits of part time. There is always someone worse off.

VJW 3rd August 2019 07:27


Originally Posted by Twiglet1 (Post 10535488)
Not just Airline Pilots but many people have worked a life time of shifts - particularly night shift workers and all the negatives that go with it. I'm sure also a few of the Airline Pilots who are part time will appreciate these folk don't have the benefits of part time. There is always someone worse off.

Indeed ~ 97% earning a tiny fraction of an airline pilots salary.

My advice to the OP would be to get command in BA on the 320 then apply to places as a DEC rather than a DEP. Quick upgrades aren’t guaranteed at a new airline and while that’ll be the aim, what you’re actually doing is swapping BA LH FO for FO SH loco somewhere in the hope you’ll a) get a quick upgrade opportunity and b) pass the course. I’d wait until I had upgraded on SH in BA first and see what options are available then...


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