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Interesting..so many people on here actually think it’s a sensible idea to leave a long haul position on the jumbo in a top flag carrier with top benefits and virtually all the modern aircraft at your disposal, to go work next door on a single type of aircraft for the next 30 years, and all of this 8 months before that little unknown detail called brexit. Good to know this is the sentiment of many! |
For balance, what happens if BA are going through some hard times (and therefore redundancies) at the same time as the Jumbo is winding down? Think there’s going to be junior bods on other fleets getting the chop and retraining going on? I’d suggest not. I don’t think the Jumbo is really the best place to be (and this is coming from someone who has bid for it). Having said that BA has a good track record in that area so it’s unlikely but nonetheless it’s a discussion point. |
Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
(Post 10184523)
Interesting..so many people on here actually think it’s a sensible idea to leave a long haul position on the jumbo in a top flag carrier with top benefits and virtually all the modern aircraft at your disposal, to go work next door on a single type of aircraft for the next 30 years, and all of this 8 months before that little unknown detail called brexit. Good to know this is the sentiment of many! I don’t know about you, but you sound like you live to work, I work to live and to have the best lifestyle for my family. I would like to be a dad to my young children in person, every single day, rather than half their childhood through FaceTimE, whilst stuck in another hotel seeing the same things over and over again. I have no interest in commuting or packing a suitcase every time I go to work and BA simply cannot give me the lifestyle I want, I’ve seen the short haul rosters and no thanks, some of the long haul stuff looks pretty good. If I was in a different time of my life young and single, I would probably think about it and give it a go, but my life now is I have others to think about, who are more important than an aircraft type and colour and not being there often isn’t great for family life in my opinion long term, have a few friends families have broken down from being away. You sound very proud to work for the flag carrier and so you should be, BA is a great brand, I just don’t think that fits into most people priorities. Everyone is different, easyJet is a very very strong airline, you will not find a safer seat when times get tough. My my priority is to keep a roof over my families head and to be there every day for my children, if I feel tired I go fatigued/unfit and never had any comebacks, new bidding system working well for myself (not everyone mind) and don’t feel as tired as before, in fact feel pretty good this summer so far. I enjoy going to work most of the time, fly with some truly great people and have a lot of fun during the day. |
Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
(Post 10184523)
Interesting..so many people on here actually think it’s a sensible idea to leave a long haul position on the jumbo in a top flag carrier with top benefits and virtually all the modern aircraft at your disposal, to go work next door on a single type of aircraft for the next 30 years, and all of this 8 months before that little unknown detail called brexit. Good to know this is the sentiment of many! |
Fascinating discussion, albeit ultimately easyJet vs BA again. As the Count accurately summarises, there are many pros and cons to both.
For me, the idea of reaching the pinnacle of my career in my early 30s, followed by years of flogging between the same runways with nothing to look forward to other than fatigue, roster disruption and eventually part time, was enough to push me off towards BA. I won't reach an easyJet Captain's salary for many years, but at least now I have options, a career path and some fantastic experiences to look forward to. This is a unique industry where you have to back a horse early on - rocking up at BA in your mid 40's, in my opinion, is too late. Clearly you can only make these decisions based on your own situation at the time - it's certainly not easy and I honestly couldn't say at this point that I've done the right thing. Perhaps it'll be years before I'll even know. What is obvious though is that the gap is closing between Easy and BA, and I can envisage a day when BA see a real reduction in applications unless they stem the pressure on Ts&Cs. Easy is a great place to work and the financial rewards are huge, if that's what motivates you. Of course long haul is the big differentiator, but remove that, I might have have stayed put. In summary there's no right answer. Choose what suits you, and live with your decision. Easier said than done of course. |
Originally Posted by FACoff
(Post 10184748)
I can envisage a day when BA see a real reduction in applications unless they stem the pressure on Ts&Cs. Easy is a great place to work and the financial rewards are huge.
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Whatever your persuasion, it's a sign of ever changing times. . . . Would this thread ever have existed 10-20 years ago. . .? I think not. . . . .
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Was chatting to someone connected to Easy training a few weeks ago. Commented that Easy have an issue with quite a few people who have been with the firm for about 10-15 years, have had a fairly early command. These guys/gals really hate the company and the industry purely because they are trapped by the money. All options either require a substantial pay cut or a move to an unpleasant part of the world at a time when they are having young families. Recipe for unhappiness, which was fairly predictable.
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This is a unique industry where you have to back a horse early on - rocking up at BA in your mid 40's, in my opinion, is too late. Would I try to talk someone else into doing the same now? Probably not, as their career path will be different. Everyone must assess and make their own decision but I just wanted to point out that it worked for me. |
Apologies for slight thread drift....Rex refers to Balpa hopefully drawing a line in the sand should BA come after PRIAM(Cassandra)....I seem to recall all the old hands saying the same thing about Bidline! :uhoh: |
sidthesexist I agree, I’m sceptical myself but the fact is; if aspirational bidding goes what is actually left? |
I seem to recall all the old hands saying the same thing about Bidline! |
Bex, the fact of the matter is everyone said precisely that about bidline too. I have been struggling to comprehend for a few years now, why people still want to leave decent airlines to come to BA. The downward trend in terms and conditions has been accelerating all the time, and with its current inertia, we will be significantly worse than the low cost airlines before we halt the trend. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10185092)
sidthesexist I agree, I’m sceptical myself but the fact is; if aspirational bidding goes what is actually left? |
The reality is that it is swings and roundabouts.
When I left easyJet in 2011 it was a toxic atmosphere in which to work. An external management consultancy had completed a survey of employees and had used exactly that word, "toxic", in it's description of relations between front line staff and management. I remember how anti-company the majority of people I flew with were. No discretion, no favours, even no single engine taxi or reduced flap landings for some. I remember one captain starting the APU at 3000 feet because "it was a short taxi in". People were desperate to leave and many did. In the years since under the McCall regime, the airline seems to have become a much better place to work with excellent financial rewards on offer and better (if not perfect) rostering. The toxicity seems, to a large degree, to have been banished. Meanwhile at BA you could argue over the same period that we have seen a general slide towards dissatisfaction amongst the pilot workforce. Bidline is soon to be history, we have less leave than we used to have, 34 pay points instead of 24, huge and rising profits and fairly poor bonuses compared to easyJet. The pilot only pseudo share plan is a very poor relation to the excellent SAYE and BAYE share schemes at easyJet. There will come a tipping point soon though, as others have identified, where the pendulum will have swung too far and things will necessarily start to move in the opposite direction. Already BA do not have it as good as they used to when it comes to recruitment. I can't imagine, in 2011, anyone turning down the offer of a job with BA. But apparently, plenty do these days. Even for those who accept, some have changed their minds during their notice period. It has become a tortuous decision for some and particularly around the issue of pay. easyJet is an extremely profitable place to work at the moment and people have made significant sums of money from share schemes in addition to the much better command salary on offer when compared to an early command at BA. Personally I still think BA is a pretty good job. My wife and I have travelled the world in Club at a tiny fraction of the commercial cost, I love the long haul job (but also love the fact I can switch back to short hall if the situation should dictate it) and the training and the people are absolutely fantastic for the most part. I would describe it as generally more "chilled out" than easyJet in terms of the day to day flying. Bottom line, in another 7 years who is to say where we will be and which will be a better employer. Will the pendulum have swung again? Probably, I would suggest. I don't envy those trying to make the decision today as it is doubtless more complicated than when I made mine. All I would say is that whatever option you choose will not be a disaster. Think long and hard, and then don't look back. |
BA gives you choices that Easyjet doesn't (aside from regional basing) if you are of a certain age. I agree with pretty much with NM's comments but I sense a rise in the discontent within Easyjet too in the post McCall era - possibly a little more than the usual summer mayhem and driven by continual inability to get establishment/rostering sums right. Then again you could say that of about any operator these days. EasyJet has become one of the better shows in town mainly due to the drive and determination of its employees and their representatives coupled with management team who started listening a bit more a few years ago. |
Interesting point... Any easy Pilots care to comment on how things are under the new management? |
[QUOTE=737 Jockey;10187635] Interesting point... [/QUOTEAny easy Pilots care to comment on how things are under the new management? Nothing much I feel has changed since Johan has taken the reigns. On the face of it he seems a nice chap, he is very much into social media and does his communication through our Facebook workplace thing which I'm not sure many employees are on. Lots of selfies he likes to do with people out and about. I don't really use it so I don't hear from him. As for the henchman/ladies below Johan everything is quiet (at the min!) so I guess as long as no one wants to exert some authority and challenge for the throne game of thrones style we are happy with the status quo Caroyln has left in the air. |
I guess it depends on where you are based as well.
In my base we don't have access to FB workplace, meaning that nobody at all has any clue about what happens on management level within the company - however, we also don't get pestered with all sort of useless info that needs to be selected for relevance ect :) One very good thing I noticed is the selection of new managers. We had some managers exchanged on country and base levels, and Ezy seem to have chosen people with actual people skills and manager skills for these roles. This is new!! |
What about TUI UK with the opportunity of long or short haul and regional basing, would you recommend this over BA as a career choice?
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TUI, with regional basing over BA.......hell yes. My last duty I left home at 14:00 got stuck on the M4 and arrived for work at 15:45. So that was half an hours hold up but still ok as report was 16:00. Check in, flight delayed to 18:00 because the aircraft was late inbound. Pick up a ATC slot and eventually depart at 19:00 for a quick there and back. Again a slot and get back to my car gone midnight. M4 road works and eventually arrive home at 1:30. 11:30 door to door to go to the south of France and back. FFS really. The best bit is I can do it again for another 4 days before having 2 off. Oh that and it’s only worth 4:30 credit and £40 in flight pay. |
And that’s before they start moving the M25 and building a third runway! If indeed they actually do ever make a start �� |
Having backed the wrong horse early on in my career, being ex-Monarch, I considered easyjet amongst others when things went south but BA was of no interest as there was no way I could pay the mortgage. The thought of commuting to LHR was also a total turn-off . |
As always it’s horses for courses. So many factors determine your lifestyle at BA. Do you commute? PP24 or PP34? LH or SH? Which fleet? Age? Family circumstances? Seniority? The answer as to whether you stay or go will be different for everyone at every point on the seniority list for different reasons and nobody is right or wrong. If you want to be home every night forever then BA is not for you. If you can’t soak up the frustrations of operating out of LHR then I’d avoid it like the plague. For a career in short haul then EZY at a regional base probably beats BA - even at LGW. If you get a command after a few years then the money is certainly better at EZY. But if your goal is to travel the world and spend time in places you would probably never see on your holidays then I can’t think of anywhere else in the UK that can offer the variety than BA. It’s not a perfect place to work but you can delete those management emails without having to read them and if you never visit Yammer then you’d find life is pretty good because none of the negativity gets through to you! The variety and choice is unmatched but it goes without saying it’s not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. Look after number 1. Too many people are at BA because it impresses the neighbours. They’re often the unhappiest of all. |
Mylius - a very accurate and incisive post.
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Having recently joined from EZY I am genuinely surprised at the lack of rostering agreements, fatigue management system and the attitude towards fatigue in general at the company. Looking at several rosters guys/girls are working 6 on 1 off 6 on in certain cases (perhaps overtime) but Im sure a majority being forced to do it in order to get even the slightest bit of control later on in the month. 5/4/5/3 or the FRV pattern back at easy was FAR less fatiguing and the real lack of days off is crazy. Yes- you work fewer block hours, but how is sitting in the pilots bar for 2 hours waiting for an aircraft any less fatiguing? Duty hours are through the roof and the inefficiency of the system really is astonishing. FR are working 5/4 and yet BA see it fit that you can work 7 on 1 off? I appreciate it allows for overtime and moving trips around but when there is so much in overtime days are closed anyway! Grass isn't always greener...!
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Interesting post mikealpha320. My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul. Once you've gained a bit of seniority say a year or 2 in the rhs is this possible or is short haul at BA simply worse than at EZY now, even if you're relatively senior. Thoughts from anyone who has gone EZY to BA in the last few years would be much appreciated. |
Originally Posted by oleostrutbasher
(Post 10190449)
...My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul... |
Oh and another thing; It's not 'horses for courses' or anything along that vein. Unless of course you're a horse with 25plus years of seniority, a crystalized NAPS pension and at the top of a 24 point payscale... None of which are on offer, to be clear.
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Originally Posted by oleostrutbasher
(Post 10190449)
... My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul. Once you've gained a bit of seniority say a year or 2 in the rhs is this possible or is short haul at BA simply worse than at EZY now, even if you're relatively senior. |
A lot of what is written here reminds me of Churchill’s quote about democracy being the worst type of governance......apart from from all the rest. B.A does have its issues, as do many other airlines. What is for sure, is the pilot job has changed over 50/40/30/20/10 years...and not for the better. ‘Who is to blame? I’m sure we could come up with a list of suspects. What are we going to do about it collectively? Good question. I’ll vote for anyone that has an answer. |
Originally Posted by oleostrutbasher
(Post 10190449)
Interesting post mikealpha320. My main reasons for applying to BA were the lifestyle benefits - to have more control of what days I have off, control over the type and timing of work I do, and a more sustainable career in short haul. Once you've gained a bit of seniority say a year or 2 in the rhs is this possible or is short haul at BA simply worse than at EZY now, even if you're relatively senior. Thoughts from anyone who has gone EZY to BA in the last few years would be much appreciated. |
Originally Posted by Stocious
(Post 10192376)
I've been in 4 years and pretty much get every weekend off, never miss an important occasion and don't fly at night. Haven't done for about a year. It is possible...
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I guess 4 years in as a SH F/O will see you, ahem, “fly” up the list and gain some control fairly quickly. 10 years seniority on a popular LH fleet will see you just out of the bottom 3rd, maybe even the lofty heights of halfway! Only the 74) will see you top half by then. On the ezy/BA theme, I think the big orange finally reached a point where rosters were so ridiculous they had to improve - it was certainly bonkers when I was there. If the rumours of new improved fixed roster patterns are true then we may see things develop to the point Ba actually start providing TR’d and experienced Captains to ezy, not the other way round. Which would be a turn up for the books. In reality I think BA are just a bit behind ezy on the cycle of stupid rostering and things will have to improve* as some point. As things stand, BA lose very few pilots, although I know of one junior P1 who has quit for pastures new recently. Until that changes or we actually grow a pair as a collective and tell BA to poke off things will stay as they are. A moderately experienced pilot can have a lgw s/h command in BA within a couple of years of joining, I reckon that is as quick as it happens anywhere in Europe? Which says it all really. BA is no longer the holy grail, it’s just another airline job. *I heard anecdotally that an ezy accountant asked why historically they lost so many pilots to BA. “Because our guys are so well trained” came the response.....”we could save a lot more if we didn’t train them so well” was said accountant’s retort - so when I say improve...... |
Ahahahahaah fantastic! I hope the last one about the accountant is a joke?! |
I would hope so, but the again, we are talking about an accountant who works for an airline :ugh: |
Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
(Post 10190404)
Having recently joined from EZY I am genuinely surprised at the lack of rostering agreements, fatigue management system and the attitude towards fatigue in general at the company. Looking at several rosters guys/girls are working 6 on 1 off 6 on in certain cases (perhaps overtime) but Im sure a majority being forced to do it in order to get even the slightest bit of control later on in the month. 5/4/5/3 or the FRV pattern back at easy was FAR less fatiguing and the real lack of days off is crazy. Yes- you work fewer block hours, but how is sitting in the pilots bar for 2 hours waiting for an aircraft any less fatiguing? Duty hours are through the roof and the inefficiency of the system really is astonishing. FR are working 5/4 and yet BA see it fit that you can work 7 on 1 off? I appreciate it allows for overtime and moving trips around but when there is so much in overtime days are closed anyway! Grass isn't always greener...!
One of the FRM requirements of EASA FTL asks just that. question what happens when crew members flying on days off for overtime etc and what processes are in place by the AOC to manage it - The Airlines answer (not just BA) is hum - the FTL limits. With the extended rest recovery periods of EASA FTL you can work crews extremely hard if you so wish (just need to look around Europe to see this especially with a weak regulator) From what i've seen at UK AOC's most are behaving responsibly particularly if BALPA are keeping them on their toes. Not sure about BA though wasn't there a famous quote "There is no fatigue at BA" |
Apparently making cap so high that everyone has to work most waking hours but letting us try to choose how we do it means that its not fatiguing? Add in forcing trips on people- a very poorly organised operation in and out of LHR and the attitude that BA is still the best and there is nowhere else to go and you've got the perfect recipe for this situation. Not to mention forcing captains into RHS so they don't have to pay FO's for the overworked hours in the working agreement. When will BALPA get out of the companies pocket and actually do something?
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September. |
Originally Posted by Buter
(Post 10193806)
September. a heartfelt meant good luck. |
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