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Slight tangent but, for folks being given part-time now, how long have they been waiting? It is pretty much impossible to say, or is there an average or fleet-specific waiting period? What would one be looking at if going on the list as a new joiner?
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Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 9713066)
Can't talk about SH but 650 sounds low for a Longhauler, I would have thought for most trip line holders it is more likely to be 750 plus on average and we certainly have more than a few bouncing off 900 hours.
I've done around 800 hours on trip lines in the last 12 months. Just finishing a 7 day run today after which I have 2 days off. |
Yep I did scratch my head a bit but seeing as SH isn't my aisle........perhaps a better indication is what's CAP looking like at the moment.
''Twas always the choice: sit on a BL with relatively little choice, wth TASS but perhaps more time at home, or try for a Tripline, knowing you'll probably have more choice possibly more predictability but also fly more hours..... Anyhow with JSS is this all going to be moot? |
100% under 600 hours on shorthaul in the last year, March to March. I've double checked in the logbook. Obviously with the caveats that I mentioned. Mix of triplines, blind lines and reserve.
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Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 9713631)
Yep I did scratch my head a bit but seeing as SH isn't my aisle........perhaps a better indication is what's CAP looking like at the moment.
''Twas always the choice: sit on a BL with relatively little choice, wth TASS but perhaps more time at home, or try for a Tripline, knowing you'll probably have more choice possibly more predictability but also fly more hours..... Anyhow with JSS is this all going to be moot? |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 9713984)
100% under 600 hours on shorthaul in the last year, March to March. I've double checked in the logbook. Obviously with the caveats that I mentioned. Mix of triplines, blind lines and reserve.
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Cripes, 1976, one year on the T1e..............100 hours..........yeah, one ton.......thought I was working hard and collected me tea allowance for doing endless 1630 hrs check in .Oh, those were the days my friends ! Bort, we bombed around at M0.86 and LHR-NCL was 28 minutres..........er, flying time.....!
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My experience..
Exactly 2 years in the company as a full time DEP A320 LHR - already at 50% on the seniority list. I am a commuter from the frozen north (well Aberdeen) so bid for blocks of work to reduce time on bath road or brothers spare bedroom. In 2016 - 11 months of trip lines (last was a blind line as too difficult to make CAP due leave / sim) included in this was 2 months of reserve. Total hours flown 707 (least 17hrs in jan (reserve) most 78 in august. Remember CAP is not flying hours, for example an Amman standover is worth over 12 hours CAP but only 10:30 actual flight hours, trips are inevitably worth more then day trips. Nights in hotels downroute 73 - remember I bid for trips. Nights in my own bed at home in Aberdeen - 152. I don't do overtime but on the rare occasions I have tried have been unable to as there is very little available. Are we correctly crewed? I don't know but I am enjoying life and working less than when in the military or flying turboprops. Not sure if that sheds any light on the recruitment situation |
[quote=Icanseeclearly;9714357]
Total hours flown 707 .... Are we correctly crewed? ..Not sure if that sheds any light on the recruitment situation |
Taken from a management forum recently. Average 120 Pilots a year for the foreseeable. Some years will be more slack (like this year and possibly next) some will be busier. 2019/20 is the next big upcoming bulge of retirements.
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Am I correct in thinking that there are no more FPPs next year so whatever requirement there may be will at least come completely from the pool?
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It's a shame they don't give us our position in the pool and updates as and when they do pluck people out just so we know the likelihood of getting a call. I know people who've been in since April 2016 and I'm in from Sept 16. So imagine there's not too many before April and perhaps a few hundred maybe between them and myself. So not looking great really I don't think.
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VJW from what I gathered there's nowhere near that many in the hold pool, the estimate was 60ish. I would hate to jinx anything but - if that's the case - I struggle to envisage a scenario where anyone left in the pool who hasn't gone elsewhere wouldn't get an offer for 2018.
(P.S I love the way we all seem to be suffering Stockholm syndrome here and questioning that because we are having some semblance of a lifestyle at the moment it must be because we are overcrewed! To the complete contrary I would suggest that it's probably because we are correctly crewed at the moment. 93 Hours Cap and getting flogged to death is not the indication of correct crewing levels even if it is/was the norm!) |
"no further hiring for 2017 other than FPP cadets. 2018 mainly from current holdpool" quoted from British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools however i have no idea how trustworthy this site is and who indeed updates it!
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That's essentially what we were told in a hold pool update email in January.
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 9714732)
VJW from what I gathered there's nowhere near that many in the hold pool , the estimate was 60ish.
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Likewise, but your position is clearly more relevant to the rating you hold than your actual number in the pool (assuming the A320 is where most newbies are headed). Last I heard 70% of the pool weren't bus rated.
Trouble is all we can do is speculate (natural in this position of perpetual suspense I suppose) - I do hope BA appreciate this and throw us a bone now and then. |
The first offers for 2018 would be August/September to start Jan 18. We all knew that until then it would be quiet. The fact is that if at the moment SH is correctly crewed this does not mean in 2018 with new aircraft being delivered and more part time/commands that it will stay this way. At the moment people are looking at tea leaves.
The last communication from BA to the hold pool was that 2018 will be a busy year for recruitment on SH and LH. Even if they only take 120 guys that will be a large chunk of the hold pool. As FACoff said, I hope that BA will update the members of the hold pool even if it doesn't contain anything we didn't already know. On a side note, surely in this day and age of cost cutting the guys would be kept in the pool regardless. |
As an additional note to the discussion, the last few remaining 767's are due to leave the company towards the end of 2018. Depending on how the final wind down is managed, it'll release around 85 pilots to other fleets almost overnight. Just under half of which are in the RHS and although it's only a small ish number in the grand scheme of things, it will fill seats that would otherwise have gone to DEP's.
But that's the plan today and it's always subject to sudden change.... |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 9714732)
VJW from what I gathered there's nowhere near that many in the hold pool, the estimate was 60ish. I would hate to jinx anything but - if that's the case - I struggle to envisage a scenario where anyone left in the pool who hasn't gone elsewhere wouldn't get an offer for 2018
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On a side note, surely in this day and age of cost cutting the guys would be kept in the pool regardless. |
Originally Posted by applecrumble
(Post 9717007)
I think there are a fair few more in the pool than 60. If you multiply that by three you are probably closer to the mark.
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60 Bus Rated / 180 total? The maths would almost fit with the chap further up the thread who claimed to be 40th in the queue overall, but 8th in the bus queue.
Sorry I don't have names / quotes, I'm on mobile. |
and with FACOff who thought that 70% were non bus rated.
RexBanner - your source is seemingly well placed, so I shall hang on every word and hold you to it! ;) |
The 767's retire late 2018. In early 2018 there are quite a few 787's delivered.
If the crewing levels are correct now then surely that would mean there has to be more guys taken on next year. Someone needs to fly the new aircraft. Or after the shuffle the seats left on the A320. That's not taking into consideration the retirements, part time requests, sickness etc |
BA, having decided earlier this year that they would not be granting any more part time contracts have, through some wiley BALPA negotiation, reversed their decision. This means that probably after the summer season finishes, pilots will start to work anything down to approx 50% of their current flying commitment. This will obviously have some positive impact on the required recruitment numbers. But I wouldn't expect much momentum until it is agreed and enforced.
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Are we thinking part time is due to over-crewing or just a well negotiated deal by Balpa? Could be a double-edged sword.
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Anyone got the answer to the above by Mikealpha
Surely as has been mentioned it's not over crewed, just crewed correctly.... at the moment. |
Lots of full time guys and gals have been asking for part time for severals years but BA have refused due to the old part time contracts giving rise to large peaks and troughs in work coverage, which made crewing difficult. Also the large recruitment numbers over the last few years meant it was difficult to let people go part time as this would require even more recruitment.
The new BA/BALPA agreement allows for a new part time roster schedule that smooths out the peaks and troughs. This will allow all those who wanted the various part time options to get them and this should allow for more recruitment. So good news. |
This sounds like good news for recruitment
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http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways
Although, I don't like the sound of that. Not sure who updates pilot jobs network though. |
That says the same thing my BA hold pool email update did on 16/1/17.
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Very well said
First time I have gazed over this forum , what a very insightful and honest view on BA
Originally Posted by Amigo South
(Post 9021691)
An interesting thread - to which I'd like to add my view.
Joining BA is obviously no longer the clear cut decision that it used to be. Our managements eagerness to join the race to the bottom (and BALPA's willingness to help them) means that there is little left to differentiate BA from other airlines. To put it very bluntly, if you have an easy drive to work, like who you work with and enjoy what type of flying you do then don't bother coming here unless it's as a LH DEP and even that needs some consideration. Sadly BA is very much 2 different airlines, LH and SH. On LH you'll get to fly a heavy jet around the world and will probably get 14-15 full days off at home every month. You'll have limited exposure to LHR and the M25. Not a bad job but God only knows what bidding system will be in use 18 months from now and as previously stated you will not be able to guarantee a single day off in any month unless you have leave. If you never want a SH command, be prepared to spend 20 years in the RHS. SH is another matter altogether. You'll fly 800+ hours but will also spend as much time again on duty. Expect 10-11 days off a month with mostly only 1 or 2 days off at a time. There are 2,3,4 and 5 day tours - the majority with 3 sectors on the first and last day. Mid-tour 4 sector days with 3 aircraft changes and 4 sets of cabin crew are not unheard of. There are long airside turn rounds of up to 3.30hrs, spent in dirty, windowless airside canteens. The impact of EASA FTLs later in the year is a huge worry - 5/6/5 anyone? Also do not under estimate the frustration factor of working out of LHR. 20 minutes to get from the car park to T5, 20 minutes to taxy out, 10-15 minutes holding to get back in and then a long wait for the bus to take you back to the car park after work (up to 45 minutes after 10.30pm). More importantly, BA is not a nice/happy place to work and the working/socialising relationship with cabin crew is unlike any other airline. There is still a great deal of bitterness and hatred from a number of CC (this was evident before the dispute too). Thankfully on SH there is a nice mix of EF, ex-BMI and MF so every now again you'll have an enjoyable night stop. There are some great guys/girls on the FD but be prepared for those with limited emotional intelligence who will moan about their crystallised APS pension and their property portfolio, whilst you're wondering how you'll ever get on the property ladder! You'll never get a consensus from BA pilots about whether or not to join because our opinions very much depend on our fleet/ pay scale/ pension. However, it does not take a genius to realise that a senior pp24 744 Captain will have a very different lifestyle to a junior pp1 or 2 Airbus F/O and that lifestyle and level of remuneration has gone - no matter how much BA/BALPA promise jam tomorrow. Finally, BA at the moment is all about the money. Everything boils down to cost and there is no care for the employees or the value that they can add to the company. If I had to make my choice again in today's climate I would not join - and I was a DEP on to LH! |
Where did you hear that?
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Accurate
I have never really read this thread , whilst flicking through I found this post
A very interesting honest opinion on BA , obviously not the golden handshake anymore |
I'd like to take issue with a couple of points here
1) You'll fly 800hrs+ on SH. Completely incorrect as far as my experience goes. 600 hours in the last twelve calendar months. Others I speak to have averaged around 700* 2) Spending over three and a half hours on a turnaround? Never done it, not once. The maximum I've had is maybe an hour to an hour and a half. Maybe there are duties with such a turnaround hidden somewhere but they're absolutely not frequent. 3) The relationship with cabin crew. Again I found this to be a complete over exaggeration, yes there are some pissed off guys and gals but the amount of times they cause you a problem is minimal. You don't get to form much of a relationship with them as they are always swapping aircraft at Heathrow but that's the nature of the beast, aside from that I've noticed no real difference in the relationship between Flightdeck and cabin crew to the other large airlines I've worked for. There is some genuine banter to be had out there on the line, be in no doubt. 4) My sample size is admittedly limited (as usually I'm on public transport to the local hotels but have done a few reserve periods now with a hire car in the car park) but, again, not once have I had to wait 45 minutes. I think the longest wait has been 5-10 minutes. Yes with some late finishes too. I've said it before but there are some gross over exaggerations on pprune. It seems to be think of the worst case scenario you can imagine (which I admit sometimes does occur) and make out like it is something that happens all the time (it doesn't). You really have to take the postings on here with a large grain of salt. Amigo South's post was written almost a year before I joined and being honest, I can't vouch for what he's said as regards day to day life here. There are some grains of truth in there but if you're someone who sweats the small stuff and spends their life being overwhelmingly negative then no doubt that post will chime with you. If you take it as it comes you'll see that the things mentioned happen infrequently enough for you not to be bothered by them. I'm sat writing this on eight straight days off by the way. It's not leave and it's not a DFW. Yes I've done a couple of 6 on 2 off 6 ons in the past, but you take the rough with the smooth and - more importantly - try getting eight days off at Ryanair or easyJet as part of your normal pattern. I've got another seven day block of days off next month too, again it's not holiday. This isn't a willy waving contest either, it's just to demonstrate and highlight the level of roster control you can get at BA (yes even on short-haul and even when you're 80% away from the top of the list). *Flight time as a measure of workload in BA is notoriously inaccurate. |
Originally Posted by applecrumble
(Post 9730548)
Rumour (and it's purely that) that I heard was that some people were told they are no longer in the pool. Can anyone confirm that or otherwise?
This could have been the very last people to gain entry to the pool, essentially won't be required? Surely that's not true? Frankly I can't think of a scenario where this would make any sense for BA. Even if the swimmers at the back really are unlikely to be needed, surely better to keep them in the pool anyway in case requirements change (which as we know, they frequently do). As recruitment have said to me themselves, they've spent a lot of time and money getting us through assessment, so scrapping us (at any stage) does no-one any favours. |
Originally Posted by FACoff
(Post 9730788)
Any idea when he/she joined (and was supposedly dismissed from) the pool?
Frankly I can't think of a scenario where this would make any sense for BA. Even if the swimmers at the back really are unlikely to be needed, surely better to keep them in the pool anyway in case requirements change (which as we know, they frequently do). As recruitment have said to me themselves, they've spent a lot of time and money getting us through assessment, so scrapping us (at any stage) does no-one any favours. |
1) You'll fly 800hrs+ on SH. Completely incorrect as far as my experience goes. 600 hours in the last twelve calendar months. Others I speak to have averaged around 700* Problem is Rex is trying square what you've experienced with the fact on another forum some folk are regularly pushing how awful SH rosters and workload is under EASA rules. Certainly at the moment isn't it also fair to say that one's position on the seniority list can make a tremendous difference to your perceptions of BA? I also know there are ways of being say 80% off the top low hours but there's often a trade off involved that some people possibly wouldn't want to entertain (e.g the unpredictability of being time assignable as a blind line holder or just the total unpredictability of reserve). I do happen to know from conversation there are still some very unhappy SH (and LH) bunnies out there, so maybe on average workload is somewhere between yours and what amigo south wrote a while back That aside I do agree with a lot of your other points, and frame of mind and expectation comes into it. |
Thing is Wiggy I just don't recognise this whole argument that shorthaul is awful. Yes there are bits that leave a bit to be desired but nowhere nowadays is a utopia. I'm wondering how much is being written by people who've lost touch with reality. We get plenty of leave compared to other places so if you get creative, virtually every other month you can have a nice block of time off.
If you want to measure SH against LH and take the point of view that because SH isn't as good as LH then that makes SH awful then as far as I'm concerned that's just a state of mind. If you're like me and you're staring down the barrel of another four years of it, then you begin to see the positives and there are quite a few. You just never hear of them on here because that's not the agenda on display. I've worked for a few airlines now and I can categorically say that this is the best overall. You can get some significant time off but that might mean you work harder on your days on duty. I don't see a problem with that. (Maybe part of my way of thinking is that I've seen the worst this industry has to offer, which is freezing your arse off out in the arse end of Europe flying with grizzled CRM free captains on multiple 12hr+ four sector days off a 05:00AM report on repeat with no coffee provided, a single mouldy sandwich for crewfood and being paid peanuts.) |
Towards the top of the list and if you can avoid repeated earlies, shorthaul isn't too bad. Maximum credit coupled with minimum days at work on lates only is how to bid. However, you need to be towards the top of the list to assure that.
The change to EASA scheduling means there are some nasty early rotations out there. I think this particular gem has gone now but from an early report, OSL-LHR-KEF-LHR anyone? Legal perhaps but not sensible through the disaster area that is LHR with its holding and waiting for parking/catering/tugs/you-name-it. I have heard of delights of Corfu and back followed by a European nightstop too so they're still out there. Lates were largely untouched as the changes from CAA to EASA scheduling were pretty minimal for them. |
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