Another heads up..
 

I have been told that BA will re-open A320 DEP recruitment this week.

Its already open:
BA Careers - Direct Entry Pilots

Wiggy,

As someone who literally just handed his notice in and will be a long haul commuter (albeit with a short commute) can you shed any more light on this?

Two pay deal options have been presented by the company, one of which is being reccommended by BALPA and does away with bidline. I've never known a vote go against BALPA's recommendation.

What would be the benefit to the pilot group if bidline was abolished? Given the ability to choose your roster it must be a hell of a benefit in kind to sacrifice that!?

Indeed, as another who was shown bidline rosters as part of recruitment, it would be nice to know what is being suggested in place of it and how that is likely to affect those at the bottom of the list?

Definitely. Anyone working notice would want to know some details behind this. Big decisions made on the info at the time.

You would think so, but you would be wrong, Bidline is to be sold for a few trinkets. Stockholm syndrome has taken the BACC under their current leadership and they have assisted BA in allowing Bidline to be destroyed. Now they are asking us to vote for a system that they decided wasn't good enough two years ago. It's the old politician's trick of repeating an election till you get the right answer.

So does the ability to preference trips/days off just disappear if this vote goes through?

But surely something is being put to counter the loss? What's to be gained? I cant see how a union can recommend a deal that's that negative, even more so why on earth intelligent people would agree to vote for it. Especially in times of strong recruitment and Hugh financial yields.

Cliff, There are a few things being thrown into the mix at the moment, such as a profit share/bonus scheme, that might make it a win and might make the changes worth voting for if you are willing to speculate.....

The two biggies that have got tongues wagging is firstly a proposal to move from Bidline in it's current iteration to a system known as JSS, which I believe our colleagues at United are using. I think the big big difference is that you'll be bidding for preferences on a seniority basis, e.g days off, preferred destinations, rather than bidding for predefined lines (that the company may then alter under the present rules). We are only just getting more info from the reps, maybe one of the smarter guys can fill in massive gaps in my knowledge.

Secondly the other big concern is that there is a proposal that we will get rid of the fixed "flying pay allowance" and revert to some form of hourly (flying hour/duty hour pay.), which by definition will vary from month to month depending on duties, sickness. BA BALPA fought a long battle to get as much pay as possible fixed, so to me a a bit of a strange step and most definitely a massive U turn, though I guess it might make sense to some financial whizz kids who look at the spreadsheets and reckon they'll gain somewhere else in the deal....personally I'm not convinced. Those negotiating with lenders for mortgages and/or loans are saying the drop in the fixed element in the pay could them cause big problems. I think for many it's simply a financial risk they can't take and I feel this issue alone is a deal breaker for a lot of the junior pilots- they need the fixed allowance. Then again I'm sure others here have more info and perhaps a different POV.

It is all being debated now, there will then follow a vote on whether to change or stick with something approximating to the current system.

Anyone have any idea on the other "Pilot recruitment news" to be announced this week after the A320 DEP was announced?

Whichever system comes in, BA have managed to bolt an optimizer to the back of it, so that 99.5% of the work will be covered to the detriment of everybody's preferences/awarded line. Don't be coming in thinking your roster will be set in stone. That won't be until around -8 days to the start of the month I believe. Sadly, those new joiners will realise the BA job is rapidly going the way of Emirates. Reading the Emirates threads just reminds me of what is coming our way....

Hunter boy, if it's heading to become like emirates then why on earth would anyone vote to change it? Do the union have to agree to a change either way or is it optional to keep as you are?

In my humble experience if you're onto a good screw and a company offers a variation or alternative, it's always for the workers detriment, no matter how glitzy it is presented

Changing the flight pay to variable from fixed looks like a pay cut. That is a concern to me considering the strong financial performance of BA - that they are still looking to reduce Pilots pay.

The idea of a bonus or profit share to offset the loss in fixed flight pay may sound lucrative but it's not guaranteed income.

I'm not a BA pilot, just an interested person in this new development.

Cliff, you've spotted the cunning plan. The company council have not given the line membership an option to vote for "no change".

I'll no doubt make a pig's ear of it but I will try and paraphrase the two options we have been given:

Either A. 3 year pay deal, small very much single digit %s, plus keep the fixed flying pay and allow Bidline to limp along with an increasing number of bits of bodge tape holding it together until it is revamped next year into Bidline 2017, which could well end up more of a preferencing system than traditional Bidline, or

B. Same pay deal as option A, but revert to variable flying/duty pay, adopt JSS preference rostering ASAP with a promise of a slightly lower annual hours target than under Bidline, take a chance on a bonus scheme which will run for three years and an enhanced medical loss of licence cover scheme which you may or may not need...

There are other knobs and bells attached mainly to option B but that seems to be the jist of it.

The Company Council don't seem to think BA are open to further negotiation, it's take or leave one of the two options, and they have recommended B to the membership (back to variable pay and adopt JSS)

Thanks Wiggy all very interesting and disappointing at the same time.
I was under the impression that, on the whole, you guys worked pretty efficiently in term of unitising the annual hours limits so, other than the company thinking they can squeeze a bit more out of you, can't see any reason for change.

BALPA, ie , us have agreed to an optimizer with BL17 and JSS. This means that the robustness of being awarded a line that reaches CAP that used to mean you were fireproof has long gone. There have been endless debates about why that is and who is to blame. All pointless. The important thing is what will happen in the future. Expect monthly flying hours of 85-90 hours with EASA limits in the near future and you won't be far wrong.

In that case, what will you be doing with your two months off in November and December then, Hunterboy?

Practical

I think it is always down to the company wanting a bit more, which is leading to a managed decline - something prospective joiners need to be aware of.

The lack of a "no change" option post negotiations has become fairly standard. I think many on the BACC are still scarred by the Open Skies episode ( having heard what went on at a personal level I think that is quite understandable), they saw what went on around the Cabin crew dispute, and have decided any move towards IA is best avoided. Therefore following any negotiations we tend to see a couple of options being offered up, one of which is usually recommended by the BACC. In the heated debate that then follows elsewhere we then normally get told that not voting for the BACC's recommended option will result in them (or many of them) resigning.

That's my read of it and all IMVHO of course.

Neither option looks especially attractive to me. At a time when the industry is supposedly on the up, why are we accepting this continuing downward trajectory? Have BALPA become a glossy magazine subscription?

Option B appears to disadvantage those lower down the pecking order with the removal of the fixed element of flying pay. For those not senior enough to benefit from JSS while receiving unpredictable pay derived from a roster that published a couple weeks earlier than the current system. What's in it for those of us lower down the seniority list? Or does this just benefit those at the top?

Perhaps it's time to consider other options to the sacred cow that is Bidline. Fixed pattern rosters have worked very well in previous operators and continues to serve those at FR and EZY very well. Perhaps its something worth looking at for us.... (he says while running for cover)

With a mortgage and a young family to pay for, my instincts tell me that the current offer is a big move in the wrong direction.

Thanks for the info Wiggy, much appreciated.
As a new joiner nothing I can do about it, however I have to agree that it seems a very big move in the wrong direction during a boom period. I dread to think what they will pull when times turn bad :-(
Bidline, even as junior trash, was a big selling point for me, I can only hope that the replacement allows for the flexibility that you guys appear to have enjoyed regarding swapping, bidding for days off etc. Time will tell.

I think the fact that the industry is on the up doesn't apply to the employees. In fact , the two are probably inversely related, like most large companies now.

A lot of the BACC resigning would not be a bad thing, the current lot are too close to the company and do not listen to their electorate, preferring to tell us that they know best and we should leave things to them, as they have our best interests at heart. That they have overseen the destruction of one of the most coveted rostering systems in the airline says a lot. Still, if you are a long distance commuter selling what is left of it for a few back to backs is probably quite desirable.

Possibly, but when the Industry is on the down, it definitely applies to employees. The employers make sure it does!

Don't get me wrong, when things are not going so well, being 'all in it together' and making sacrifices necessary to ensure the ongoing survival of a business and therefore our employment is absolutely the right thing to do.

Conversely, when things go in the other direction the sacrifices made in the tough times should be rewarded. At the moment all I see is T's and C's continuing to be erroded despite the industry doing relatively well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same.

Just my two penneth, those that have been in BA far longer than I will almost certainly have a more informed point of view.

Cheers

2W2R

I think what has hamstrung the current BACC is they saw what happened to the cabin crew in their dispute. End result is BASSA really aren't at the negotiating table anymore. I don't for one second think the new management would act any different if Balpa did the same. Sr. Cruz just needs an excuse to bring across some of his more interesting ideas from Vueling.

I wouldn't go as far as blaming the union, rather the lack of unity among the pilot workforce. Different pension schemes, pay scales and differing senses of entitlement mean that one size doesn't fit all. It is very difficult for BALPA to please more than about 30% of the workforce at any one time.

2 Whites 2 Reds

FWIW that is also the way I see it.

Wiggy,

I think that senior pilots are also disadvantaged under option B. The company state that it wouldn't allow a pilot to get something like Cpt Cpt Lax on a line. If my current seniority would allow me to get that then the proposed changes are a degredation in conditions. So junior and senior suffer. Who wins? Why the company of course.

This BACC have overseen a massive degredation in our terms and conditions. The holy grail of bidline has gone and we've received nothing in return. If they didn't see that allowing new entrants onto a new pension and payscale would lead to the demolition of bargaining power due to split interests then they are fools. Everyone else saw it and told them but, as usual, we were just short sighted whereas they had the "big picture" and knew what was best for us. Muppets.

Hi guys,
Quick one , probably mentionned before.
What are the best books to get prepare for the computer, comprehension, math...tests.
Thanks

What is the salary for a BA Longhaul DEP?

Flap62

Everyone else might have seen it and told them, but there have been votes on each of the changes you mention. If people want to continue to blindly follow their reps and vote in the direction BALPA recommend, then there is actually very little democratic process and the BALPA reps might as well just be a team of BA selected pilot negotiators. We need a team of professional negotiators, not pilots who've been on the odd course, and we need a union that is not scared of its own shadow. In my opinion, pilots are in BALPA for a few different reasons, but top of the list are laziness (they can't be bothered looking at proposals properly; choosing to simply vote whichever way the reps suggest), hope (they think things would be worse without a union and hope that one day it will grow a pair), and insurance (they think BALPA will protect them legally if they ever have an incident/accident, or if they have some other problem at work. They are wrong though. If BALPA chooses to protect you - you didn't need protecting in the first place.)

GS-Alpha has got it about right....in fact BALPA will only support you legally if there is a >50% chance of winning your case. I wonder how many members appreciate that......

GS Alpha and hunter boy,

Agree with you both 100%.

It is pretty difficult when the union present you with two choices, neither of which is palatable and both of which are acceptable to the management. A non of the above option on the ballot paper might be a winner. Oh, and you get to pay 1% of your salary for being stiffed by your union.

Flap 62

While this may affect senior people too, I would argue that the impact isn't quite the same. But you're quite right when you say that, in the end, the company wins. Which is why I'll go back to my original question, why are we accepting this at a time when things are on the up??? Surely we should be adding value to our contracts, not making huge sacrifices to the detriment of all concerned.

The problem is, those further down the list are the lower earners in the company so to remove £7-8k of guaranteed annual income represents approximately a 12% pay cut in year 1. When paying a mortgage and raising a family in the South, that's a really big deal.

I'm staggered that BALPA are recommending I accept a 12% pay cut from my fixed income to accept a Variable pay arrangement in return! My monthly subs were taken on Wednesday and I'm wondering what on earth I'm paying for.

2W2R,

I agree that (as usual) it is those further down the food chain who will suffer proportionately more. How can it be that we were persuaded a few years ago that moving onto a monthly fixed payment was better for us and the way ahead? Remember BALPA telling us that they had fought hard to get the best deal (after embarrassingly having to backtrack after initially high-handedly imposing a solution on us!)? so what has changed in the last few years that they are now recommending a 180 degree turn?
We have probably taken something near a 15% cut in the last 15 years and yet in times of near record profits BALPA tell us that the proposed 3 year deal will hopefully give us real world increases in at least one of the years!
Unfortunately I have no say in this as I, like you, wondered what I was achieving for my money and after a series of simply shocking decisions gave myself a 1% pay rise.

So is there any more clarity on what this new roster system is going to deliver?

All bidding for destinations and days off, so if you're junior you will still get the equivalent of a blind line? Can you prioritise days off over destinations? Will trip swapping still be available?

Yep, I may well do the same.

Not really. There's lots of verbiage about "preferences", and "bid groups", I'm fairly middling on my status list and would certainly like to see concrete examples of how one of my bids would be processed by "JSS" before coming to any conclusions. If anyone here has actually worked under JSS I'd be interested to hear their comments.

Overall it feels to me we're being asked to buy a new car without being allowed a test drive.

I'll tell what has changed in the last few years. We all worked particularly hard last year, but were paid the flying pay allowance based on the year before. This meant that BA saved a small fortune because we were effectively underpaid. The system means that this year, we should be paid for last year's hard work, but we'll be doing less flying this year because the pilot numbers are more realistic. BA have recognised that they can save by going back to the old system this year because they won't have to pay us the extras due to last year's enforced extra work. Also, sickness rates have increased since the new system of pay came into effect. What they don't recognise is that when people are forced to work harder, sickness is bound to increase. If you need a day off and you're going to get final assigned if you bid for that day off and then have the spotlight on you if you go sick for the trip, then most 'humans' would actively bid to work on the day they need off, with the knowledge that they can go sick without the spotlight on them. As a result, many people have stopped bidding for the days off they need - using sickness to achieve it instead. This is a problem the company would of course like to sort out, but it has nothing to do with whether people are paid £9 an hour flying rate or whether it's a fixed monthly payment.