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Originally Posted by 3Greens
(Post 10463305)
how so then? Because your post made me doubt myself so I had a look at my logbook from 1999 when I joined. Seems very similar actually. Every weekend worked. 4 reserves a year. 790 hours. And 5 east coasts a month the norm. Few months with 5 trips and two sims. It has pretty much always been pants (in relative terms), one way or another, at the bottom of a seniority list...on one fleet (744) it was mitigated by seeding the Blindlines with a "decent" trip...(e.g. HRE or GRU), and what saddens me is it appeared around the time of the ballot that many thought getting rid of Bidline would be the answer to all their problems.. Now, we've done "The four Yorkshiremen" ... do we need to think about trying a look on "The Bright Side". Maybe somebody can come up with a solution to weekend working that doesn't drop everybody in the muck...I reckon setting a flying hours target of 750 a year would be a start and might get JSS working as advertised pre-ballot..fat chance of that. |
I thought we were starting on occasions to see to six trips a month on some lines in relatively recent "days of old" under Bidline and Roster assign/FA but I'm probably wrong. Introducing some kind of points system for weekends is an attempt to remove the seniority advantage for that element of monthly bidding. Messing about with inhibitors is an attempt to do away with the seniority advantages there also. We seem to be attempting to use a strict seniority system with a load of sticky plasters. It is true that the BALPA members voted for JSS. When 50% of the pilots are more senior than the others, and many of those in the bottom half recognise they will be in the top half by the time the system comes in, funnily enough, it gets voted in - particularly when tied to a paydeal, it doesn’t mean it is a good system for the guys in the bottom portion. I know plenty of people who are refusing commands purely because they don’t want to give up the huge lifestyle advantages afforded be being senior. |
Plus one to working every weekend when junior, first on short haul, as an FO, then again long haul, a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row, admittedly the 3rd was allocated from TASS, but today’s snowflakes would be at the priory after that! JSS is rubbish, I didn’t vote for it, and those did are stupid for following BALPAs advice, give the promise of a free gift in their packet of cereals and pilots will vote for anything. But JSS is not the problem, it’s the people that promote themselves into a command, then moan about working weekends, like they didn’t know and the people who join a seniority based company, with 34 pay points then moan about it. Those people are the problem! I wanna be a Captain.......... but I shouldn’t, have to work weekends, poor me........ |
"a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row"..
That's nasty..very very nasty.... for those going :confused: take a quick look at the timings of the BA183/182 (available on an Internet near you) and translate it into UK time/UK body clock timing. |
I’ve been with BA for quite a while now. I’ve had the best 22 odd years of my life. Great people to work with, going to great places round the world. I really have had a ball. JSS has changed all of that. If you’re junior you’re going to work every weekend, every month, doing a lot of the most fatiguing trips available with minimum days off. And that’s just long haul, I can’t speak for short haul. Anyone applying, just bear that in mind... |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10465094)
"a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row"..
That's nasty..very very nasty.... for those going :confused: take a quick look at the timings of the BA183/182 (available on an Internet near you) and translate it into UK time/UK body clock timing. OK you do get two shots at a sleep but my (in-experienced) view would be the sleepy scientists would have a field day with that trip. Looks good on paper I can roster anything job. |
JSS is rubbish, I didn’t vote for it, and those did are stupid for following BALPAs advice, give the promise of a free gift in their packet of cereals and pilots will vote for anything. |
Snowflack: “those that promote themselves into a command?” Nobody promotes themselves. They get the opportunity to prove they can meet the required standard. It’s a good job somebody will take a SH command because just imagine how many course failures there would be if we were dragging long term SFO’s from LH to SH LHS against their will. Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10465611)
Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command |
.Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command In passing just an observation that I think might be worth making to avoid any tendency to stereotype parts of the BA workforce: Over the years at BA there have been more than a handful of "long term" Long Haul Co-pilots who have successfully gone to Short Haul for a command by way of a Command conversion. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10465611)
Snowflack: “those that promote themselves into a command?” You know what he meant; don't be difficult. You joined BA late, got an early short haul command, and now can't stop moaning about the BA / seniority system. Get over it! |
The Blu Ridband. Wrong, wrong and the seniority system is fine as a concept but the delivery of it is not. Since you know me send me a email and I will happily meet you to give you the facts surrounding my position. You are probably misinformed as many are and I don’t blame you for that. Email is just the standard BA one. wiggy, quite correct. It is one of the most challenging courses RHS LH to LHS SH. If you are not committed to it, it will be a much greater ask than it is. It’s the attitude of guys I have flown with that gets me. The system as I said is fine but the attitude of a minority shows a lack of compassion or empathy and in some cases a spiteful enjoyment. Re reading I should have worded my point better. |
No more Short Haul courses until the end of the summer schedule according to latest Comms on yammer. |
Holdpool
Hi All, I’ve been in the BA holdpool for just over 2 months now. Slightly unexpected as we were told during the process that the holdpool was pretty much non-existent and to expect to be called up very quickly. Anyone else been waiting that long, or would anyone that’s recently received an offer be able to let me know how long they were waiting before it came? cheers |
Originally Posted by Stall-turn-Go
(Post 10467968)
Hi All, I’ve been in the BA holdpool for just over 2 months now. Slightly unexpected as we were told during the process that the holdpool was pretty much non-existent and to expect to be called up very quickly. Anyone else been waiting that long, or would anyone that’s recently received an offer be able to let me know how long they were waiting before it came? cheers |
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123
(Post 10468810)
TUI is probably the best at the moment. Unless you’re French or Dutch. KLM pay a massive bonus if TR on joining -we do get a compensation if we still have a pilot loan on the date of joining. -this year is the last year we get a compensation for slashing klms pension contribution to the half. For the last four years. Next year back to normal pension contribution(which is much better than the compensation) |
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123
(Post 10468810)
TUI is probably the best at the moment. Unless you’re French or Dutch. KLM pay a massive bonus if TR on joining |
Originally Posted by The Foss
(Post 10468932)
I wouldn’t think so - there’s people leaving TUI after less than a year to join as type rated 787 at BA. Came across one who’d left tui for a320 as well. Be surprised if any going the other way. |
Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123
(Post 10468976)
To be fair I don’t know any moving either way but rosters I have seen plus remuneration, TUI is not bad. How many FOs year 1 or 2 at BA grossing 90k? I know of 3 at TUI from the 6 I personally know. Please give details? I would say something has gone badly wrong with TUIs staffing levels if they are giving every new FO in the business 3 day off working payments a month, even more remarkable considering the seasonality issue of their business. |
I'd say 600 hours quoted above as being a slight exaggeration. At least in my experience - on the 73 fleet my average was around 700 - which when you consider for the winter period I averaged 4/5 flights (even as little as 1 flight) per month, it gives a taste of how busy the summer can be.
the figures quoted above in regards to FOs earning potential within TUI can also be true, but is by no means guaranteed. It has nothing to do with the crewing levels being wrong though. As a charter airline, it has to be adaptable, and therefore crewing at around 80% and offering considerable remuneration to pilots willing to work on days off, is actually cheaper in the long run than having a surplus of pilots and paying for pensions, national insurance, etc for the next however many years. Most duties attract 2 WDO payments, some even 3 - so its quickly quite easy to see how 90k is achievable if 1. The opportunity to work on days off is there, and 2. You are willing to be flexible. |
Reading some off the above I'm beginning to understand and believe some of the rumours going around that people haven't been turning up for courses and perhaps have headed elsewhere...:oh:
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Originally Posted by SEBBES
(Post 10470862)
I'd say 600 hours quoted above as being a slight exaggeration. At least in my experience - on the 73 fleet my average was around 700 - which when you consider for the winter period I averaged 4/5 flights (even as little as 1 flight) per month, it gives a taste of how busy the summer can be.
the figures quoted above in regards to FOs earning potential within TUI can also be true, but is by no means guaranteed. It has nothing to do with the crewing levels being wrong though. As a charter airline, it has to be adaptable, and therefore crewing at around 80% and offering considerable remuneration to pilots willing to work on days off, is actually cheaper in the long run than having a surplus of pilots and paying for pensions, national insurance, etc for the next however many years. Most duties attract 2 WDO payments, some even 3 - so its quickly quite easy to see how 90k is achievable if 1. The opportunity to work on days off is there, and 2. You are willing to be flexible. |
Originally Posted by Enzo999
(Post 10470823)
Please give details? I would say something has gone badly wrong with TUIs staffing levels if they are giving every new FO in the business 3 day off working payments a month, even more remarkable considering the seasonality issue of their business. Your obviously new to the business, Tui/Thomson have adopted this process since Pontius was a Pilot - well for at least 20 years I imagine. They were the first Airline to work out to cover 3 flights a day you need 3 standby crews. Or, just 1 Pilot on a day off payment. 1 or even 3 days off payments is also cheaper than a sub charter - Simples and keeps the Nigels happy |
Originally Posted by clamchowder
(Post 10471116)
I'm sure there is an obvious reason, but why haven't BA adopted this style? Company reduces costs + pilots make more = winwin?
In the old days of CAP371 it didn't take much for crews to work out if they flew on 2 days off the regs would likely mean they would get another 1-2 days off - result. Not so much under EASA FTL however tut tut. |
BA do basically use the same model. Only there is a significant difference in reward. Less than 25% bonus over normal hourly rate. And people lap it up as soon as its available. Factor in no pension contributions on the above, and BA basically get the additional work covered for the standard hourly rate.
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Yeah BAs day off payments were awful ! |
Originally Posted by Tricia Takanawa
(Post 10471168)
BA do basically use the same model. Only there is a significant difference in reward. Less than 25% bonus over normal hourly rate. And people lap it up as soon as its available. Factor in no pension contributions on the above, and BA basically get the additional work covered for the standard hourly rate.
Flying on day off: 200% (and sometimes more because last minute duties generally have deadheads attached that I don't have to do as a commuter. just got 20 hours of pay to work a 4 hour flight, I was gone from home 15 hours.) There is absolutely no chance anybody here would take a last minute assignment for 25%-115%pension=10%extra. |
Could any kind soul decode the following gray / amber tiles from a crewlink roster:
CL LA LB WR BW SW S2, S3, S4, S5 NA DD ZZ RP PR PL PD GT GD LFS FDO HSB Also, looking at a roster (screenshot I took from a roadshow), how can you tell if it's 747, 777, 787 etc? Are the aircraft number coded? Where do I look? Thank you. |
CL - compassionate leave LA - annual leave with wraparound days after x4 LB - annual leave with wraparound days before x3 WR - wrap around days off (workable) BW - bank withdrawal SW - not sure off the top of my head S2, S3, S4, S5 - simulator. The number refers to the time slot. I2, I3, I4, I5 would refer to the instructor’s roster. NA - non-assignable day associated with DD usually DD - duty free week associated with NA day at the beginning. Can be worked in if desired. ZZ - break, usually to denote days off after a trip on reserve RP - reserve period PR - protected day off, for a variety of reasons PL - not sure EDIT: paternity leave PD - part-time days off GT - ground training e.g. SEP GD - ground duty LFS - Leading Flight Safety course FDO - fixed days off associated with a reserve period HSB - HSB associated with a reserve period Depending on the roster format you’re looking at but you can usually tell by the destinations. |
Don’t know what SW is either but just a health warning that it would be best to be cautious of drawing too many conclusions if the rosters in question are from prior to Jan 19. |
SW means the trip was swapped in some way. |
Anyone with an idea on when DEP might/will reopen? |
If I was a betting man, fairly shortly for shorthaul....:} |
Originally Posted by Tay Cough
(Post 10473743)
If I was a betting man, fairly shortly for shorthaul....:} |
O no, sorry, that doesn’t work anymore and was the old bidline answer. Under JSS the questions about the very high level of global constraints just get ignored 😉 |
I am curious to see what will happen when global constraints and crew repair goes senior in a few months time. At the moment the junior are being worked hard as a result of those mechanisms, but when they become hours restricted, GC and CR will have to go much further up the seniority! |
schadenfreude?
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Originally Posted by GS-Alpha
(Post 10474134)
I am curious to see what will happen when global constraints and crew repair goes senior in a few months time. At the moment the junior are being worked hard as a result of those mechanisms, but when they become hours restricted, GC and CR will have to go much further up the seniority! |
Concur with Wiggy, you want to take any potential Long Haul roster you have been shown on a roadshow with a huge pinch of salt. I’m taking it they haven’t been advertising the most recent JSS rosters for those junior particularly on the 777 & 747 fleets. |
Interesting that there are more people leaving with seniority numbers above 3500 than those naturally reaching retirement date some with numbers above 4300. i think JSS has been a game changer for many and looking at junior rosters they look unsustainable in the long term. cant believe it was voted for. |
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