Thing that annoys me is that for all the years in SH BA, the saving grace for me and many of my colleagues and friends was getting on to the LH fleet . Here I am 3 years on the 787 and I’m working my ass off (I know we have a few grounded that is helping the high workload) , LUCKILY I’m on pp24 but still the temptation to leave is overwhelming , I feel that we are a somewhat neglected workforce , 2 applications in with 2 other companies.
rant over

I'm curious so I have to ask - I'd agree the BA Long Haul lifestyle probably beats SH hands down but what sort of workload were you expecting on Long Haul....?

I’m afraid the days of coming to BA Long Haul for rest have long gone, certainly if you are a trip line holder on a full time contract...and I suspect JSS might make it worse.

I guess you are right , I should’ve had my eyes open

Wiggy whilst I agree that JSS is less than desirable I think there’s a lot of scaremongering going on regarding its introduction. As a grass is greener individual casting “envious” eyes at some of the long haul rosters on iBid it has to be said that it escapes me how JSS could fit any more work onto the lines on Long Haul. We’ve already got tripline holders doing six east coasts in a month. Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient? The annual days off entitlement will remain the same too (I think I heard someone voting for JSS because we’d in fact get more annual days off?)

The inescapable conclusion for me is it’s not even about money as such, it’s the fact that to gain any semblance of lifestyle in BA nowadays you have to go part time. That is absolutely not just and it’s high time the workload was addressed. It won’t be of course.

That’s not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and i’ll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.

we’re splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.

RexB,

Your Point is well made ref tripline holders. However, I don’t see the BL issue as “splitting hairs”.

It varies by fleet/status and month, but I reckon a good 20% of the company are on blindlines. If, for example, you have 2 BL holders flying 600 hours a year and, next year, through JSS, you can get them to 900 hours a year, then you’ve effectively generated an additional pilot with no increase in pilot numbers.

This thread is aimed at new joiners who would have been low hours blindline pilots.

Anyway, to go back to your original point, you were struggling to see how JSS could squeeze more out of the workforce. You see the answer now?

My point is it’s a mathematical impossibility to do more than six east coast trips in a month or five trips constructed of anything longer. Many of our colleagues are already working these kinds of rosters so how can JSS make it any worse? Additionally if life is now going to be so brutal under JSS then how come one of the things that was delaying it was that we required more pilots to make it work, not less?

Hi again, just to add my post wasn’t a “pop” at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think “alright for them” with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.

Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I haven’t looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully you’ll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.

Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...I’m not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickled’s take on how it will out for many of them ...but since I’ve yet to even see a dummy roster I’m only guessing....

no offence taken mate , we are all good . Good post btw

Rex

At the moment, a senior 747 pilot can do 4 high credit 3 day trips and be pretty much at CAP, or 5 and exceed it by some margin, or they can do 4 x 4 day trips and be at CAP. A junior pilot does 6 low credit 3 day trips and is still hovering just below CAP, or alternatively, the company fail to squeeze the 6 trips on their line so they are left considerably below CAP. Theoretically, spreading out the high and low credit density a bit more would make the workforce as a whole more efficient, because the company could get more people to CAP more regularly. Whether JSS will do this to the most senior pilots remains to be seen, but there will likely be a seniority level where pilots no longer get the same average credit density as they once did, and this will enable the average credit density of the junior pilots to improve. Of course they will most likely still be doing 6 x 3 day trips, but I suspect their average credit density will improve, which will mean their annual hours will increase.

I will be one of those junior Captains before long so I have a part time request in, because without it, I don’t think I’ll be able to accept the command. It is madness that in order to take the promotion, I feel it necessary to go part time and end up earning less than I currently do, but we are where we are. I am not prepared to reduce my lifespan for any employer.

Well this makes for depressing reading. Anyone who is considering a junior command, I can tell you don’t touch it with a barge pole. As soon as my freeze is up I’ll be going RHS LH or if the company allows, part time and I’ll keep the command. The only way I have coped is because blindlines work me less but I’ll be dammed if I am going to work to the level of a trip line holder and take all the crap.

Current ops are not respecting our scheduling agreement and have given me some shocking duties. When I questioned it the response was “it’s legal” yep but not under bidline rule.......

I’m still sceptical Bex, after all if JSS is going to be so incredibly efficient and able to work us to within an inch of our lives, then why are we right now embarking on another massive recruitment drive (I’m told 2019 will be possibly a new record for numbers)? There aren’t that many people retiring.

(oh by the way see you in the sim soon!)

Oh no that’s it. Job’s F£&ked ��

Look forward to it.

Well for one, JSS has to work within bidline rules whereas Final Assign does not. Also, I think there will be quite a few people retire in 2019 and 2020. BA has been barely coping to cover the work even with three years of bidline rule alleviation’s. Suddenly those alleviations will be gone (hopefully not to be replaced with new ones). There’s a lot of catching up to do to establish the correct pilot numbers.

They have...FWIW there is a lot of disquiet now about the very fatiguing nature of some rosters/trip constructions.we’ve gone well beyond the level of grumbles over a beer post flight, people are now raising Air Safety Reports/Mandatory Occurance Reports, more so than ever before.

Also following increasing complaints and following the stalwart efforts of one individual in particular some in authority outside BA are now looking at BA’s handling of those who go sick....

As someone who is considering applying to Ba this year to look for an airbus command over the next 2 years, would this be a good bet? I’m not interested in LH, already done enough of that. What I’d like to know is what sort of working pattern a new SH FO or CPT have and whether you get any choice over base at interview/ offer time. Can anyone help me with this?

someone said, BA is a long term bet, is it worth the move financially and career wise for someone mid40s who has the hours for command but wants out of the northern bucket and spade outfits?

any pm welcome too.

Can someone outline the part time options available in BA please. Is there a waiting list and how long from applying can you expect to get it?

many thanks

NG708. You would be mad to join BA for SH only and a quick command. You will work nearly every weekend working the inefficient trips others don’t want. You will be paid less than that of a captain at both EZY and RYR. On top of that three months of the year you will be on reserve so are at the companies back and call for 28 days at 2hrs notice. Under JSS you could expect to work 18-20 days a month as a junior captain to make cap. The only bit in the above that is an assumption is JSS the rest is first hand info as reliable as you will get. Quick commands are never certain

Go through the application process if you’re interested, brother. You ain’t got a decision to make until you get offered a job.

You may get offered long haul or short haul, depending on what they’re short of on the day. Apparently, at the moment, you get offered a job once and once only. Your choice.

if you accept a seat on one of our fleets you will be there for for 5 years unless the company wants to move you. That includes long haul back to short haul.

EK for 10 years? You outta your f’ing mind?

Best of luck, dude!

Buter

Could you please email me the screenshots of the 744 pilots doing 6+ trips, sir?

Regards

Buter

3.5.4.3, by the way...

’Morning Buter...good to finally meet you in person the other week ..

The coffee hasn’t kicked in yet so I may be resistant to detail but a quick 1 minute skim read of iBid final rosters shows at least one 744 P1 with 6 trips completely contained within October, though the individual is so far above CAP they may have deliberately loaded their line up or have been RA’d. It certainly looks like Bidline rule 3.5.4.3 hasn’t been “deployed” or wasn’t in play for some reason.

Even if it’s the case that you don’t ever have to do a 6 trip month there are certainly some who do and for many 5 trips will be the norm on at least some of the Longhaul Fleets, which I suspect may come as a surprise to a few of our readers and prospective joiners.

ATB..

5 trips and two sim days for me I’m the latest bid. Without the sim, that line was a few minutes over CAP. That particular rule not in play sadly, Buter.

I met a junior 747 Captain the other day who claimed to have done 17 trips in a row with just 2 days off between each trip!

Bex88 said:

Just to clarify, the first 7 days of the 28 days reserve are normally ‘fixed days off’. One can elect to work during those days (excepting the final two) but BA can not assign any trips.

NG708: I was 42 when I joined BA, having had 10 years in GA and 10 years in 737 UK Charter Ops (including 8 years in command). I joined onto the 747 fleet and spent 14 happy years there. Then 5 years A320 LHS and now LHS on the 787.

As my BA experience spans the last 20 years, it’s difficult to give advice because the situation is now different but I just wanted to point out that it worked for me.

Hey guys and girls, just wondering if there’s anyone on here that’s starting the 320 typerating on the 7th of Jan? We’re trying to get a watsapp group going before the whole thing starts. Send me a pm if you want.

Skaterboi.

I am ex military and an ex turboprop driver and joined BA SH 3 years ago at age 46. I can honestly say it is the easiest gig I have ever had.

Yes I fly with people who are 15 years younger than me, but that’s not an issue.

Yes I will never get a LH command but frankly It doesn’t bother me, in fact I have deliberately not bid for SH command as it’s about quality of life for me and I have been there and done that.

BA is not the be all and end all and it most definitely has its problems but show me somewhere that doesn’t, other than the night Moscow you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of SH flights that are still airborne after 2330 so that’s a massive plus in my mind, the fact you actually get off the aircraft to explore the city you are in is also a massive plus to me. The biggest plus of all is the ability to move fleets and reinvigorate the job.

there are always people who are unhappy, it goes with the territory, I believe you could put pilots in a bar and give them free beer and a free lap dance and we, as a group, would complain because it’s bitter not lager and a brunette not a blonde, there are 4200 pilots at BA and I can’t believe more than 100 a year (and that’s a very generous estimate) leave for pastures new that’s about 2%, I wonder what the percentages are at other carriers?

like I say BA is not the be all and end all and it has its issues, talk to ex military mates to get a proper feel of how it is but take it from me it’s perfectly easy to enjoy it as an “older” FO.

Nice to meet you as well, sir.

I‘ve had a look through the C744 rosters and some of them look suicide inducing. However, very few of them were in the realm of the 5 trip rule. If you look, many of the trips were picked up at stage 2, IOT or EOT. There’s no protection, and there shouldn’t be, from a pilot loading up his/her roster as much as they want.

Sooooo happy to be on the tanker...

Cheers

Buter

That opens up a whole range of responses..:E

I’ve tried to resolve your unspoken unwritten :confused: by PM........

I’m P2 744. Blind lined. I’ve got 5 and a half trips this month and not beyond CAP.

Just had a row of trip/2 days off/trip rolling from last month. Totally knackered. Just woke from a mammoth 13 hour coma back home after busting through my two (very loud) alarm clocks :O

Trust me, You don’t have to plunder OT to have an eyeball busting P2 jumbo roster, they’ll offer that little service free of charge even on a blind line.

Many overlook the quality of a month isn’t about the 1st to the 31st. Your body doesn’t work 1st to the 31st. You can have a nice little compact rolling roster of pain from the 15th of one month to the 14th of the next and then a shockingly luxurious row of 4/5 days off block mid following month. Which by then consists of crying in a corner and sucking your thumb for the first two days :O

Ouch...

There are some who are of the opinion that the combination of JSS and recruiting will see some relief from that sort of scheduling but TBH and very much IMHO it’s hard to see any regime run by the likes of AC taking their foot off the metaphorical throat once they’ve seen what can be enforced.

I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.

Yup! For me it’s now black and white. No more messing about now. Beg for part time whilst I have a mull over (can’t afford it though so not a great long term option), bid for LGW (frying pan/fire?) or get the hell out of dodge. I can feel this in my body now. My time at home is now given to work. I’ve tried to be very positive about work until now. Loads of good aspects of course.. I might be paid 65k but my time “off” and health do belong to BA. I figure they’ve bought me half price :O

I believe you have hit the nail firmly on the head there Wiggy. I see people who have come to the jumbo from short haul, or have just joined from other airlines. They think it is great and say it is a breeze. I always say to them “Yep, that is because it takes about five years for the long term fatigue to really hit you, but it you it will.” They don’t believe me, but give them five years and they’ll be begging for part time or a return to short haul because the current work rate is beyond what the human body can reasonably be expected to do.