I thought that was the reason for taking extra fuel.

737Jock

Actually it's very unlikely BA's recruitment has anything to do with next years Olympic games.

BA has neither the space, nor slots to engineer that sort of growth for a one of event.
The recuitment is for capacity growth and new aircraft, which don't really figure in the plan till 2013,

We'll see... I don't understand your argument however; you say it is impossible to grow in 2012 due to slots but in 2013 there will be capacity expansion??? What about that slot problem.... where will they put those new aircraft?

In my view the london airports will squeeze out as much capacity as they can for the olympics. How will all those people get to london otherwise???

Doesn't really change anything though, growth plans are very easily changed into fleet freeze or even downsizing if the economy suffers bad enough.

Personally I don't see any reason for capacity increase in the UK after the olympics if this economic crisis continues, certainly not for the prices BA is asking.

It's often pretty obvious!

Yep thats why new ***captains find ***FO's on their roster at roster publication, only to find out that when the date approaches they have just completed their 100 hours of line experience that is required to loose the stars.

So now we have a 400 hr guy sitting next to a 3500hr captain. Still a sub 4000hrs total experience in the flightdeck.

And that can happen 5 days in a row!!! I don't see how this mitigates against the effects of inexperience combined with fatigue arrising due to this inexperience.

There's no doubt that flying as or with inexperienced crew adds to fatigue, but then so does flying a week of earlies in apalling winter weather conditions. We can plan and cope with both these eventualities by being well rested prior to duty or, if this is not possible, calling in "fatigued". We're all grown ups after all, aren't we?

Nighstop, Seriously?

What department of H89 are you in then?

No nightstop there is a very big difference.

Recruiting solely inexperienced FO's and determining the 100hr limit for inexperienced/experienced is a positive decision and thus avoidable, !!!! weather isn't a decision it just happens.

Would you fly an approach with a known thunderstorm over the field with windshear? Cause there are warning systems and after all you can always go-around like a grown-up?

Don't answer that....

But lets combine those 5 days of winter weather with 5 days of inexperienced flightcrew and on top of that an FO under financial pressure as he is paid by the hour in the low season. How do we mitigate against that???

I see two factors in there that can be changed by policy, only the weather is a fact.

Nightstop,

Have you been "single crew" recently with a two striper?

Well I have and I can tell you it's not very nice.
The 'adrenalin pump' took care of the fatigue issue.But if it had stopped (and it does happen) I doubt if a recovery by two striper would have been successful.

Trainers have expressed concern about experience levels through their management...but they say nothing is being done.

And as most guys coming in aspire to BA and are in any case employed by other companies....the situation will change slowly if at all.

Threat Error Management anyone??

I think you guys are doing a diservice to the 2 stripers. 99% of them are fully capable and all are well trained to take over from old codgers (or anyone else) like me if I kick the bucket, despite their lack of experience. Indeed, didn't one such lad not so long ago do just that (and very well) when his Skipper expired? I've no problem working with these new cygnets, but maybe my 24,000 hours puts a different perspective on the issue. Cast your minds back to when you were wet-behind-the-ears with just a few hundred hours, I remember it well and thanked the Captain's I flew with for being so patient & understanding and for passing on valuable tips & advice, even though they weren't Trainers...maybe you should consider adopting this mindset too and give these guys/girls a chance to reach your standard?

Thanks, Nightstop. If only those feelings were shared by everyone. Regards... a "2-striper"...

Nightstop,

I think you are right and one of the reason why so many captains seems to be so hard on these 2 stripes poor guys is maybe because now they become captain after 5 years and are a lot younger and so less patient and understanding than their older fellow captain. like you...

You have 24000 Hrs many captain I flew with had barely 4000 Hrs total or so...
Most of them only flew one aircraft type and not various types in various continents which , I think , reduces their experience.

As someone who might be out of work soon (airbus UK charter) it seems there are still options to get into easyJet via Parc or CTC via their flexiscrew deal. Whilst it's not something I'd do lightly due to the terms and conditions I do however need to work and there doesn't seem too much else out there at the moment.

Can I ask if anyone knows someone who has joined recently with a bus rating and hours on type? I keep asking both parties for details of bonding arrangements, if there are any at all, and the silence is deafening!

Thanks in advance

Hi djfingerscrossed. A freind of mine went via CTC as flexi-crew (was a BMI pilot). He was not bonded as he was already an A320 pilot.

Have to agree with Nightstop! The vast majority of cadets I fly with are personable and capable for their experience level!! We have very robust SOP's and although at times some need more help I too was a newbie at one point! Overall, having been here for a decade the company has went through many changes but for me personally it's a great gig if u r outside of London, the money and days off are good and on the whole with good crew both up front and down the back. It's not for everyone but I haven't seen anything better, certainly not in Europe anyhow!


Tin hat on !!

737Jock

As this is an Easyjet recruitment thread I wont bore anybody with the fine details, but capacity growth comes from 380 and 787 being larger than the aircraft they replace. There is also a greater mix of longhaul to shorthaul flying requiring more crews. After that we're into retiree's.

Recruiting 800 pilots over 5 years is not for the olympics lasting just a few weeks.

Anyway that was last weeks plan. The worlds economy might, and probably will, implode some time soon.:ouch:

Goosemaverick - thank you very much sir.

I'm just wondering why they (Parc and CTC) haven't been more forthcoming with details. No doubt they're making quite a bit of cash from having people contracting through them. Have to wait and see what happens in charter land first

Wow how good a pilot are you binder? Easyjet must feel very lucky to have you......not. If you weren't whinging about 2 stripers you'd be whinging about something else that you feel superior over. If you need to say it, it's probably not true.

When I was wet behind the ears I wasn't flying big jets.

Like so many others I worked my way up through instructing, IR, Turbo prop FO/ Command, Easy 737 and now Easy bus. Unpopular as it may be my opinion is that the "old" way gave a very good grounding almost like an aprenticeship in aviation before climbing anywhere near a big jet.

No one is doing individual 2 stripers a disservice, it is the sheer number of them combined with a lowering of experience in the LHS that is the problem, combined with the amount of work we do it is far from ideal. Low hours cadets have always been around, but in the old days they represented a very small percentage of pilots mainly in BA that were released into a pool of vastly more experienced pilots.

Having done training in the past I am more than capable of, and do on a regular basis, pass on guidance to my FO's, however on many occasions it is more like training, with 2 Toga 10's to my credit in the last 12 months at LGW and many days of feeling on my own when things are going a bit tilt that I know the balance has gone too far. If I wanted to be a trainer, then there was a NTC out recently asking for applicants. There is a difference between coaching and training, and many days are too much like training and single pilot. I am concerned that my actions are not being crosschecked enough, because I am the Captain, therefore I must be right? Wrong! Its a two crew operation for a reason and it is not always that way in EasyJet right now when it goes wrong. That is not to say that is always the case, I personally have had written comments placed in two cadets training files because they were very much outstanding, and it was a pleasure to do so, however they are very much in the minority on my roster!

Black & Brown,

Your comments are somewhat 'off beam' and frankly stupid.

What I said is accurate and a view shared by many colleagues on the line. This was just one event that could have had a different outcome.

Have a look at ezydriver's post; Completely agree. The pendulum has swung too far.

Superior? Moi? Come off it! The cadets are great folks with things to teach me too. And with over thirty years flying experience I am always keen to help develop others in the same way that my 'superiors' did when I was serving my 'apprenticeship'.

What I want to know is will Easy have the decency to recruit the old TRSS hold pool guys who had been swimming for a couple of years (that they spat out last year) when they decided to bypass them for CTC after offering them an initial job?.....at least BA gave their guys that courtesy of first selection again!

BaronBlue - move on from TRSS and the hold pool, as those dogs are well and truly dead! BA only keep people in the hold pool for some time and then they have to go through the whole deal again. There is no way that easyJet will go back to the guys you refer to. Please do not shoot the messenger - you can no doubt justifiably argue the ins and outs over whether it was fair or not. That is not the issue now - easyJet are recruiting again and if you are eligible to apply you will have to go through the process they set up, regardless of whether or not you passed previously. Sorry mate, that is just the way the cookie crumbles.

The difference being of course, is that BA stopped recruitment completely (hold pool disbanded) while Easy (despite having a hold pool) recruited fresh CTC cadets without giving those guys a chance I know one who even offered to pay his type rating and was refused!

The message being beware!... could the same thing happen if placed in a hold pool and a fresh bunch of CTC cadets come along? I would keep every option available even if successful.

Really? Some people's powers of observation on this forum leaves something to be desired :)

Future First Officer Opportunities - Pilot Careers - Careers in the Air - easyJet Careers

It still all comes down to the lowest factor.

No matter what recruitment policy EJ have, can a young 2 striper carry out 40 years service with EJ..?

Deano777 - It appears that the person with the least powers of observation on this thread may be you. I am fully aware of the easyJet Careers website and its allusion to a possible entry method for non-rated pilots. The 'dead dogs' I was referring to, and which BaronBlue has understood, are the defunct Type Rating Sponsorship (TRSS) and hold pools of previous years. The situation that BaronBlue referred to was where easyJet ran recruitment sessions for non-rated pilots, indicated to the successful candidates they would have jobs shortly and placed them in a hold pool until specific course dates could be arranged. Then easyJet had a change of tack, recruited a whole pile of CTC cadets and left the TRSS guys high and dry with no clear indications of what would happen next. A long time later, the hold pool was abandoned and the waiting candidates were sent packing. Quite understandably, the pilots on the receiving end of this behaviour were utterly dismayed - frankly, I cannot blame them.

The problem is that, however badly the would-be TRSS candidates were treated, it will not change anything - therefore the dogs are dead and it is time to move on. The big unknown from easyJet's perspective is the quality of the candidates that apply with A320 ratings. Past sim sessions have not been encouraging, and whole batches of candidates have failed on some occasions. Therefore, easyJet have to keep the door open to the possibility of non-rated pilots if required - hence that last paragraph in the advert. If required, there will be non-rated opportunities under the guise of some kind of TRSS scheme - although probably called something completely different to save any awkwardness. The final terms and conditions are yet to be decided, but it will be a great deal for those who get it.

Behind the scenes at easyJet, there are many hopeful signs. The 'Project Merlin' team are about to present the plan for the future of pilots within the company. It has been and continues to be a root and branch analysis of every aspect of pilot engagement. I do not expect vast pay rises for all, but I do expect there to be significant changes in contracts. The most likely one appears to be a move from 5/3/5/4 to a combination of 5/4 and 4/4 contracts. I personally love the idea of starting on 2 or 3 earlies and finishing on 3 or 2 lates - it sounds about as good a deal as you can get in airline flying. There would be no random month and you could therefore predict your 4 days off for years in advance. The 4/4 deal may come with the right for the company to buy-back some days off, but I am not sure of the specifics. There are numerous details to be worked through, not least of all how the 'flexicrew' pilots will be sorted out. Furthermore there are significant inequities that need to be addressed - for example a UK-based Training Captain earns not much different from a Paris-based First Officer. A crazy situation exists where UK Training Captains have taken up jobs in France, Italy and Spain to get the big bucks. Therefore the Company has to position them back to the simulator at Gatwick on working days - on a 5-day block easyJet only gets 3 days sim training out of them. It would seem logical to ensure that these guys are paid properly and get more work out of them. At the other end of the spectrum, many 'flexicrew' First Officers earn a lot of money but do not have the security of tenure they desire. Would it not be cheaper to give them the permanent job that pays them way less than they earn at the moment, but would give them certainty for the future?

EasyJet is not perfect, but there is a huge amount that is right. Although there is much to be done, there is a sea-change in management thinking and practice that has become palpable. It will never be a British Airways but, compared with a huge range of airlines, it has much to offer. I believe that for many current captains in other airlines, it may be worth the risk to come to easyJet as a First Officer - it is a fine judgement that only the individual can make. For any turboprop or ex-military guys/gals fortunate enough to get taken on, should the opportunity arise, there will be very few of them who will regret it. Best of luck to one and all.

You know what Meerkat? I don't really care, I have more important things in life to worry about :)

Although I used your post in the quote it was meant to be more of a general comment aimed at the whole thread.

I don't know how your rosters are now, but don't wish for an earlies to lates pattern, it is most fatiguing. Done it for years and your are jelly by the last late.

We're all different DOO some like earlies to lates others don't one camp does not have to be wrong both can be right.

Tend to agree with ADM about easyJet CMC has made a real difference. Hopefully Merlin will keep the momentum going in the right direction. We are however a Low Cost Airline or as CMC would rather have it, a High Value Airline. Whichever we are never going to be BA. That said it has a-lot to offer. I loved my time in the RAF but I now earn close on 2x my RAF salary for less work, no one shooting at me and no secondary duties and I see my family pretty much every day. It has much to offer. Good luck to all of you seeking to join us.

thanks for this, I had heard a similar story. I read on another thread that there is going to be an issue wiuth flexi crew when the govenrment changes the rules for agency workers soon.

There is no seniority as such. You have a rank and that is about it! The only time seniority exists is within a base transfer list, in which case it is not improved by your length of service in the company: first on the transfer list, first offered transfer.

The only incremental pay is loyalty and only applies after a number of years and is only paid once per year as a bonus. There is no incremental pay scale. When you move from FO to SFO to Capt to Training Capt, you get a raise according to the promotion. That is your salary for that rank. The actual pay rates for each rank differ depending on local contracts and the applicable union agreements.

Hope that helps.

I'm looking to get work near my home in EDI after many years of commuting to London and see EZY as a good opportunity. Does anyone know what the chances are of getting up north fairly soon after joining???

Yep I'll 3rd that, did it at a low co for 2 years 3 earlies followed by 2 lates, it is a roster designed to fatigue you!!! An absolute killer over a period of time.

Day 4 you go to work when you have been finishing the previous 3 days and then land around 2hrs from when you were getting up for the earlies just 24hrs before!!!! :ugh:

Earlies to late is a terrible pattern! I've been working it for 5 years, and fail to see the benefit in it.

The flip side too is that you finish on a LATE, and start EARLY, which reduces your effective time off, and in most cases removes one local evening/night from your 'weekend' completely, the night before your early is equally unusable for anything remotely social

Clear4to in my opinion your chances of a base in edi or close to it are slim to none. Your best hope I'd have thought would be lpl or man. That said, if anything, I'd expect a mainland Europe base. Just as with Ba 'you join a company not a fleet', at easy you join a company not a base in most instances - lots of time away from base.

its really sad for the wannabes:{:ugh:

Not really - there is still an army out there wanting to sign up knowing everything that will happen to them.:ugh:

It is sad for those who have had to take a different path in life (instructing/turboprops) or those who have lost jobs and can't get one because these wannabe's are desperate to take their places at all costs.:=.

Your sympathy lies with the wrong crowd!!

Depends who you class as a wannabe. The guy who has paid out for a CPL, instructed, got some experience then hoped to get a job on his own merit with reasonable terms then yes, he or she has my sympathy.
The ones who want to buy their jobs, and are bleating about the roster or pay or how much the job costs them, I'm afraid they made their own bed.

These min hours guys currently buying jobs straight from Oxford or Jerez must be shelling out over £120k for their jobs now, all things considered. How long will it be before the £200k cadet arrives?!

Yes, but it was not that long ago that someone who had done their "stir" as an instructor, and then paid for a jet type rating was being criticised for buying his or her way past the turboprop stage. (Total cost for me up to ATPL including jet rating £35k). And not long prior to that when any self-sponsored CPL's were looked down on by sponsored cadets (remember them?).
Times do change. It's not as good as it was, that's for sure, but you can't always blame the customer for the service they recieve.

B&B, the EDI F/O transfer list is empty! Anybody joining EZY on a permanent contract now would largely get the base of their choice. Of course, anybody joining as flexicrew would remain at the whim of the company, although most get UK bases (read: LGW, LPL, MAN).