Unfortunetly for you, it does work that way. There will only be direct entry captains if there is not enough supply internally, that has always been the case and that will remain for the forseeable future.

Pilotsince1999,

I've no problem with that. I do have a problem with some of your pontificating colleagues who think everyone else must be useless.

Your company, and their relationship with CTC, should be a serious concern for you all. FO's first as Flexicrew. Captains next? It's irresistible for your leaders.

That is my point. It is a business first and foremost.

I flew with a new CTC flexi crew chap who is treading water as cabin crew.

For his first 500 hours or 8 months he will be earning £1200 a month and his CTC/HSBC loan repayment will be £1000 per month.

He will have to relocate himself to the base of Easy's choice and pay rent, eat, fuel the car and try to have some sort of life, all on just £200 per month for these first 8 months/500 hours.

He's already talking about bankruptcy and his course date is not till the New Year.

What business indeed.

Sounds like Swiss cheese with another 300 more in his position joining in the next 3-6 months.

Yikes......!

Stansdead,
I know what you are saying and this has been of concern for us. The company did want DEC for the summer and it has been suggested. Our union though, has stopped any direct entry captains from entering the company, apart from a few CTC captains for training and familiarisation for the training of cadets. This to protect there own pilots. The entry of cadets was accepted as they did not disadvantage anyone in the company. Therefore there will be no DEC until the supply of our own runs dry. This has happend a few times in the past, but I don't think it will happen soon again.
The fastest way into the lefthand seat in easy, is to get direct entry into the righthand seat and I personally hope that these opportunities will open up again, as there are a lot of good folks with good experience flying around where the company could benefit a lot from.

Actually, you try to come across as a great professional but you have gained no easy way into where you think you deserve to be as a DEC, Stansdead. You may think you will be welcomed in here, but as you see, you will have no such luck and quite frankly, easyJet is the better place for it. You lost your gamble by gaining a cheap shot at a command thinking that it would open doors to the airlines you wish to join, but it won't. In there lies your defeat. Were it your desire to be a commander, you have succeeded, but that isn't what you wanted now, was it. You wanted to be a captain in a different place than where you are, for whatever reasons you may have for that. That won't happen, happily. Do your time and wait your turn like everybody else, instead of attempting to sneak past while boasting credentials that are not relevant.

PS1999,

True. I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from. Stay safe, enjoy your flying.

Really annoyed,

You need to grow up. I have not, at any stage said I deserve a DEC at easy. I have said I'm qualified though.

I couldn't care less about being liked, welcomed, disliked or unwelcome. That's being an adult.

Somehow, I do not think you are a Captain. And with your juvenile and petty attitude you probably will fail your upgrade. So, that is one less SFO to promote....and the day draws closer.

Grow a pair, pick your toys up and put your dummy back in. You are embarrassing your profession.

stansted, you said yesterday on this thread, post 147, page 4, 21:22hrs


You wouldn't stand a chance against our hundreds of excellent SFO's who know company manuals and SOP's backwards. And anyway you're not going to get the chance.

There won't be DEC's.


WWW

I'm not sure it's ReallyAnnoyed who's embarrassing their profession!

I was just thinking the same Rod!

[QUOTE]I have said I'm qualified though./QUOTE]

You have demonstrated beyond any doubt quite the opposite.



You will not be a DEC at Ezy. Not only because we will not be hiring any DECs anytime soon, neither only because our SFOs deserve their chance ahead of outsiders but mostly because we simply could not be as cruel to force existing FOs to spend so many hours locked in the cockpit with such a arrogant, self important, self serving and narcissistic individual.

I'll try again, does anybody know if BALPA are doing anything about the poor flexi-contracts? Thanks

If they are illegal I'm sure they will. If they're not, well, what would you suggest they do? What would you suggest they can do? Wail that "It's not fair"? Lobbying just doesn't work with a hardball company like EJ.
And if these guys are employed by an agency and not EJ then EJ-BALPA can do precisely NOTHING for them in any situation as they do not and can not represent them. BALPA itself could, if the contract is illegal, but that would require the flexicrew guys themselves to organise a campaign with BALPA head office direct. Do you see that as a likely outcome? I doubt the company is losing any sleep over the possibility of that.

I see what your saying Agaricus bisporus. Just wanted to know if they had done anything or not. And no, I don't see that as a likely outcome because I feel that most CTC flexi guys would be just grateful for getting a job on a jet straight from training school, which is exactly why EJ can get away with offering Flexi guys such bad deals. Cheers

Perhaps highlighting to the travelling public on EZY flights how the flexicrew are abused on the payment front ?? a billboard advertisment outside the airport in a style akin to that which EZY use themselves with a few selected wordings ??

OutsideCAS,
The problem is that you're talking purely from the perspective of someone who A) understands how badly paid pilots are B) How much work pilots actually DO and C) Someone that thinks that pilots should earn decent money (or at least presumably)

What you [where by you, I actually mean anyone who is involved in professional level aviation] have to understand, is that the general public believe - REALLY believe - that a brand new, out of the box first officer will earn somewhere between £50 and £80k a year. I'm not kidding you, the other week I asked someone what they thought a pilot earned and their view was a captain would be on well >£200k and a first officer £100k. Therefore, sad as it is, the travelling public just don't believe that a pilot earns that little. Then also compare that the national average wage is alleged to be around £27k - so what you're trying to highlight is that these poor little pilots, who only work a max of 900 hours a year, who potentially don't even have 5 GCSEs earn the national average....

You can see that this could be hard to drum up sympathy. You need to paint the whole picture first - and very few have the appetite to hear that.

[And as this is PPRuNe....clearly *I* know that 900 hours is flying time, doesnt' include duty time, doesn't have any factoring for stress or tiredness etc - but most lay men DON'T understand that!]

Major Cleve - I'll come work for you - do you accept (f)ATPL holders with little experience, looking for a first break with a questionable sense of humour...

A company offers an employment contract. Some people apply. They get offered the job. They sign the contract.

Good luck trying to turn that into either a news item or a legal case.


WWW

stansdead - have a read of some of your posts and tell me if you sound like the sort of person you would wish to employ at your own airline. Why, therefore, would we wish to employ you here, when we have so many better candidates among our own people?

Major - having started so well, it really is all starting to unravel. For whatever reason you do not like easyJet, and that is absolutely fine. Plenty of people do not like the low-cost world, and the great thing is you do not have to work here if you do not want to. Possibly harder for you to understand is that quite a lot of people do actually really enjoy working for easyJet, and I am unashamedly one of them. As I have said on numerous occasions, it is not perfect and for very little effort could be so much better. Nonetheless, it has much to commend it, as exemplified by people like stansdead hammering at our door in such an unsavoury manner. That door will remain resolutely closed to him and others like him, simply because we have so many top-quality, highly-motivated First Officers to promote ahead of him. I am proud that we increasingly look after our own, and see that quality as a sign of a maturing, professional airline.

Back to the original question - is there any recruitment likely at easyJet? The answer is yes, both internally and externally. We are recruiting 300 Oxford/CTC pilots who are predominantly low-houred cadets taking up their first job on temporary contracts, which may or may not be made permanent. A significant number of our current temporary flexi-crew pilots will be offered permanent jobs either in November or January (not sure of the exact numbers). We are also internally promoting in excess of 20 Line Captains into Training Captain positions plus upgrading a large number of our current trainers to TRI, TRE etc. In addition we are aiming to promote 168 new captains this coming year. I put it to any reasonable person reading those figures that they are good news by any criteria you care to use. Are we a perfect airline? Absolutely not. Are we a whole lot better to work for than many others out there? Most certainly.

NSF
 

Another wide sweeping statement from you. How can you possibly tell if you have better candidates than me just by anonymous posts. Remember the terms of this forum.... Don't be drawn in.

I'm already doing the job as a Captain on Airbus. I've been doing it a while. How can your logic possibly be sensible, when an SFO has still to pass all the things that I have already passed?

This whole thing has got out of hand. You showed no resolve at all in easyJet to stop the rot for FO's - where was BALPA then? - but you now feel the need to ride your white charger over the hill to protect what you know will inevitably happen somewhere on your network. Indeed it did last summer in easySwiss. Contract Captains no less. Where were you, WWW & reallyannoyed then?

Oh, I remember. You were too busy taking £10k to fly a random roster.

Don't get me wrong, I quite admire all of you for fighting. I don't admire your sweeping statements about people being better or worse than each other.

You are meant to be a trainer fir God's sake. How can you allow yourself to stoop to such unfounded statements? Do you see what I mean?

By all means be annoyed that people like me would like to join your airline as a DEC - even though we all know how you joined - but you should think twice before trying to decide who is a better candidate for a Command job.

As far as I'm aware, I've never met you. I've never flown with you, therefore how can you possibly tell? Is that sixth sense part of the core course?

WingoWango

Have to agree with you! I have over 3000 hours and a full ATPL, but have "only" flown light turboprops and biz jets. Is the only way I can join by becoming a cadet!!?? If true that's so disheartening!! :sad:

I can tell just because our exceptionally good SFO community in the Command holding pool wouldn't have posted comments on PPRuNe which made them sound like a complete tool.

I also doubt whether you know the minimum FFRS Cat we can accept and under what circumstance, what our stable approach criteria are and how they differ on a circle to land, how to work our flightplan system, what our Ops Manual says about downgraded equipment and Cat3, how our Roster Agreement impacts on Flight Duty hours or how our FDM scheme works and what its parameters are.

ALL of our SFO's are already masters of all this and much much more and have 4 and a bit years of FDM data and Sim checks to back up the fact that they are the Real Deal.

You. Are an unknown Arse.

A glaring example of why DEC's are such a Titanic risk.

And.

NEVER EVER EVER going to be an easyJet Captain.


Shall we move on? No pressure - this is fun.:rolleyes:


WWW

Are we a perfect airline? Absolutely not. Are we a whole lot better to work for than many others out there? Most certainly.
:D:D:D

Whether I agree or not I expected better of you.

Quite.

How about some moderation?

Sorry to have disappointed you.

This is PPRuNe. Not the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps so dry your eyes darling.


stansdead decides to kick-off about being looking forward to taking a Direct Entry Command in easyJet because of his extensive experience..

:mad:


WWW

I really am not sure why this conversation is continuing. If stansdead, or others like him, were to appear on some thread about BA or Virgin demanding to be let in as a DEC, he would be laughed out of court for all the same reasons he will not be considered at easyJet. He may or may not be a capable pilot and, despite his best efforts to hide it, he may even be a decent bloke - it simply does not matter and is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Notwithstanding his particularly unpleasant demeanour as presented on here, the fact remains that like BA, Virgin, Lufthansa, Cathay, KLM, BMI, Air France, American, United, Southwest, etc, etc we are going to promote our own. Why? Because we can and because we should - simple as that. In the past, both BA and Virgin took DECs when they had to. As soon as they could fill their command slots from within it all ended and that situation is unlikely ever to return. That is the case here - there really is nothing further to discuss. There are literally dozens of our own FOs reading stansdead's astounding words on here with uttter disbelief - who on earth is this guy demanding to be let into easyJet when we have hundreds of our own highly-qualified FOs? Why not start a thread about BA, Virgin or Cathay letting you in there as a DEC and see how much of a welcome you get there? You are never, ever, ever going to be offered a job at any of the airlines mentioned above, including easyJet, as a DEC - just get over it, move on and stop making an exhibition of yourself.

Please. Take NSF's advice and just stop this now.


The logical comparison laid out is irrefutable.
:=

And neither did anybody else before they joined easyjet. Including you. That is why there are such things as:

- Ground School - Here you will learn all that you need to know to operate our aeroplanes to our standard.
- Line Training - Here you will put into practice the theory which you spent the last few months learning. A Training Captain will then sign you off as capable.

You will, therefore, meet the required standard and become a known quantity.

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with direct entry commands. Full stop. End of.

What a ridiculous statement.

You learn in the RHS - not in Groundschool.

Shove that. DEC's are a massive risk. Most, of course are brilliant and add go your experience pool instantly. But, like a box of chocolates..

In a decade of working in this company I know of only 3 Captains who "left". All DEC's.

You can be as confrontational as you like but you know as well as I do that as soon as easy need DECs they'll bloody well have them. There aint a thing you can do about it either.

The only reason that you don't need them at the moment is because of the current recruitment market, or lack thereof.

Are you going to tell them to shove it?

To address NSF's point
The same reasons? No, not at all. The reason airlines such as the ones you mentioned very rarely take DECs is because they are long haul operators.

Nobody in their right mind would want to jump from the left seat of a short haul domestic and European operation to the left seat of ULH, polar, transatlantic, ETOPS, extended overwater ops. And nobody in their right mind would recruit such people. Two completely different types of operation no?

Why was it ridiculous? On the basis of what's been written in this increasingly entertaining thread so far, I'd say WWW's musings there are pretty spot-on.

I'm not saying WWW's judgement of stansdead is right or wrong.

It is however, ridiculous to suggest that his...
...wouldn't do anything that would have...
When:

a) He doesn't know all of the SFO's in the pool.
b) What you and I are like in real life may or may not be what we portray on the internet.

Usually you make more sense WWW. You usually put an end to squabbles! Whats got on your goat? Loaded question! Don't expect an answer! Keep going guys! Pointless and entertaining!!

been following this with interest.

WWW, NSF,

your are defending the principle of not taking DEC based on the availability of qualified SFO in your company. That is a perfect and unquestionable good reason.

But at the end of the day, all this is market forces driven. Should eJ need DEC some day for any reasonably acceptable reason -like when they took you NSF- then they will just recruit the numbers they need regardless of what you may think.

I don't think there is a need to get that personal towards Stansdead. Saying that he'll "never ever" get a shot as a DEC with eJ sounds more like your personal wish than what reality may possibly offer in the future based on an objective market context.

While I always read your numerous analysis with great interest and quite often agree with you guys, I think that on this occasion you have crossed the line of objectivity...

And regarding the list of technical reasons put forward to demonstrate the unqualified nature of DEC's, do you suggest that no airbus skipper outside eJ is able to acquaint him/her self with them in the right mindset and actually become a positive asset for the company? If I did not respect you guys from your history on this forum, I would have said that it's a bit arrogant...

safe flights all :ok:

Gi Dem Dub, I believe it is based on the assumption that the rate of commands will be slower than the rate of SFOs becoming ready for command. The growth is not as high as it used to be. There have been some real porkers amongst the DECs of the past, but luckily a minority.

Reallyannoyed,

I think it is based on the assumption that they got personal in this thread a few posts back. Along with you.

None of you are prepared to admit that you have no power over who is or isn't offered DEC's now or at any time in the future -admittedly, if it ever happens.

I may have got on your goats about the possibility of it, so that leads me to believe there is obviously a serious fear of it happening in the near future.

I have been singled out as "making an exhibition of myself" by self appointed experts on everything and that their argument is irrefutable against me, whilst they have been allowed to sling dirt in my direction without recourse - ah yes, the all knowing court of some easyJet anonymous posters on pprune. I should know better. You can never win, even if you play by their rules.

Why?

Because most people reading or contributing to this thread are from easyJet.

Therefore, they like the big strong NSF &WWW throwing their unjustified weight about and saying how good their outfit is, how great the training is and how bad everybody else is - because of one "Banzai" approach. You still didn't tell me what one is WWW....

However, others who aren't in easyJet think that your comments towards other individuals are wrong. You see, it's a matter of perception. And standpoint.

Anyone who knows me would say I'm a professional, with high standards who runs a very tight ship. That's the problem you see, none of you know me. You probably don't want to know me - no bother, I've got enough friends anyway and so have you I'm sure. But to suggest people aren't professionals because of an argument on an anonymous forum??? A bit basic....

There are too many assumptions and arguments in this thread.

The FACTS are:

- it is extremely unlikely that easyJet will ever expand at the same rate it used to, as such there will be no shortage of suitably qualified FO to be promoted internally.

- if, under exceptional circumstances, the company will not have enough FO ready to be promoted internally (this is aviation, after all) they are certainly going to ask PARC or CTC to provide contract captains, instead of hiring DEC, to fill the gap until those FO will be ready.

This way they can guarantee those seats will be available again when internal FO are eventually ready (and avoid industrial action), but most importantly they can get the flexibility from contract captains (in terms of roster) that easyJet dreams of, which is impossible to get hiring DEC on easyJet contract.

Ricky

Stansdead, the whole point is that DEC will not happen in easyJet, despite what you may hope for. I am not in recruitment and thus having nothing to do with to whom the jobs are offered - but the jobs won't be offered! No amount of boasting alleged credentials and cries of unfairness and business sense will change that. So yes, I retain my stand: You bet on the wrong horse if indeed Orange Land is where you wish to fly.

I did not cry unfairness about lack of DEC jobs. The fact remains that IF such jobs were ever to be offered, I am qualified, or at least was on previous criteria. That is not a boast.

Anyway, back to reality.

Safe flying.

Well, perhaps one day if DEC positions are available you'd meet the requirements to apply, whether you'd be qualified is another thing...

But do keep on hoping stansdead, because EZY (purposely?) c*cking up the pilot demographics might very well result in management soon crying crocodile tears claiming: 'we'd loooove to promote our own, but sorry, we now haaaave to hire DEC's' because our poor junior cadets living on bread and water, sleeping in car parks for the last 2 years do not yet meet the requirements.'

Oh yes, for all those people who think that NSF's fairy tales will shield you from DEC's: think again! It ain't gonna happen! The red thread running through that orange company is: divide/conquer, lather, rinse, repeat... Every 5-7 years the company can pull the same fast ones again and again because the new generation of pilots is again willing to believe the bullsh!t and the previous generation has moved on or has surrendered. :hmm:

The big picture: dangling one more carrot in front of those poor (but cheap!) cadets to prevent them from leaving too soon before their useful shelf life (a few years in the RHS and then LHS) has expired! Imagine: 'free' cadets paying their own type rating living on bread & water and then being able to squeeze even more productivity out of them in the LHS before they :mad: off to Emirates! A wet dream for any bonus oriented manager/accountant/training captain! :mad:

I thought it was appropriate to make the following remark in the context of this debate:

As professionals with some experience in this industry, we should all know that our say as simple pilots regarding our respective companies recruitment policies is most of the time non-existent or very limited.

Then the certitudes expressed by the eJ pilots on here regarding DEC's may well be the result of a logical analysis of a given situation. But that certitude also happens to suit them and it "only" remains their own personal opinion. Unless they actually are members of eJ management in which case it's another story...

Otherwise nobody knows for sure what tomorrow is made of and this applies to any simple pilot of any company. Therefore having such heated debates on the subject and making personal attacks towards each other is a bit .... over the top....

me thinks

Exactly Studi!

Despite all the beautiful (and completely irrelevant :hmm:) comparisons with BA, Virgin or Cathay from NSF, the EZY workforce was powerless when TRSS came along, they are powerless when cadets are exploited on sub-human contracts and they also will be powerless if/when DEC's are hired...again! :ugh: