......or in other words, unless your a Captain with a Boeing/Airbus rating and a few thousand hours under your belt, we is all pretty much buggered on the recruitment front from here on in........well, unless you can fund a rating on aforementioned a/c

is there a cultural difference about money??
 

and interesting to see that these sort of thing is first coming from the UK. Once the balance sheet looks alright, it seem to be right. Even BA does not offer it´s own sponsered cadets anymore, unlike LH, AF, Iberia (?), Alitalia (?) or i am wrong?

Didn't you answer your own question?

and aren't EZY pound wise and penny foolish.

200+ SFO's leaving (absolutley nothing being done to retain them) and being replaced with three hundred 250 hour CTC 'flexi-crew' over this winter/spring (if NSF is to be believed and I for one believe him.) Good business right..?

This leaving Captains to closely monitor new cadets daily. Very hard work I'm told over 5 days times 4 sectors ("I'm so thankful to be flying with a SFO today", is the most frequent thing I hear these days and it seems to be about to get worse, especially for the 0000 to 0600 sim instructors...)

Over 160 internal promotions over the next 15 months, leaving new captains and new cadets flying together daily.

However, new "flexi-crew" to fly 300 to 500 hours per year, perhaps seasonally.

So 5-6 years to accumulate 3000 hours to be considered for command...?

Therefore 3 years from now, perhaps big recruitment for D.E.C's to fill void left by 2010/2011 resigning SFO's (no one left from BMI to fill these positions this time around)

So then and futuristically speaking (edited for African Dude), lots of cheesed off over-looked "flexi-crew", with only 1500-2000 of total factored time after 3-4 years of line flying.

History repeats itself; thus it ever was, thus it ever will be...

Roland Berger - Amen

Last heard that easyJet were working out their cadet intake requirement based on 750 hours p.a. - has this changed?

I don't understand - FlexiCrew has only been around for just under two years... or am I wrong again?

Can somebody confirm the above points? ...cheers.

Craggenmore

That is a good post and probably spot on, time will tell. One things for sure the current managers will be long gone having had their performance bonus's!!

:E

@The African Dude - You're right about FlexiCrew but I'm not sure about eJs requirements though... they're taking 158 this Winter/Spring but I'm not sure if they're planning on taking more after that.

One question I want to ask those who are flying the line at eJ right now is this:

What do those Captains who fly regularly with Cadet FOs (CTC) think of the standard/quality of the training and outcome of that training?

I've heard mixed reports about easyJet being pleased with the performance of CTC cadets and those on the other hand saying some have not been offered permanent contracts due to poor performance - Any enlightenment on the subject would be very interesting!

And on a final note, Major Cleeve has nailed it on the head... you might grumble about CTC/OAA but is that because you had a harder life (i.e modular) getting to where you are now?? (no disrespect intended btw)

Happy flying,
SJ

A number of points to consider. First to Major Sabille's point. I think that seniority is the only way to govern the airline industry fairly. I absolutely do not want TREs from other airline's turning up here to take command slots that belong to our own FOs. Everyone knows the deal at companies like BA - turn up there and absolutely regardless of your past experience you go to the bottom of the pool. That is the principal reason I would never join them as I would wait forever for a command. Nonetheless, I commend them for looking after their own guys and have no problem whatsoever with the system they operate - those are the rules and everyone knows it.

Regarding the issue of the quality of CTC/Oxford 'cadets', there is much foolishness spoken about the legendary '200-hour' pilot. We were all there once and then only for one flight - after that we had 201 hours and so it went on. A low-houred pilot is by definition a low-experience pilot with all that such a situation brings. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you accept that is a journey through which they must travel. They are almost invariably keen, intelligent, capable and well-motivated. Many low-houred pilots have significant problems with consitstency of landings but there are strick limits (15kts x-wind for example) on what they are allowed to take-on. The question arises as to what makes a good airline pilot. I would suggest 5 things - aptitude, training, knowledge, skill and experience. The first 2 are vital to start off with. After that the last three build up over a period of time. We should not expect that to be instant. So as one who flies all the time with low-houred pilots, I always enjoy it but do not expect too much. They are great folk to be around, but have much to learn - that does not mean they are not competent, but it does mean they are in a learning process that requires more supervision than would be the case with a pilot who had 3000 hours. There is nothing wrong, surprising or alarming about that - it is just a stage through which we all once travelled.

QUESTION. To all the CTC or Line Trainers in Easy, can you tell me guys/girls that come to easy with 2-3000TT on light twins, singles etc.. or turboprops king airs, shorts 360, ATRs etc) are better than a fresh CPL/IR (modular or intergrated) ??
In my company I would have to say that we as a whole have only had problems with guy/girls that have come to us with high time light aircraft/turbo prop time. After a few years the cadets shine through much more than the guys that joined with higher time.
What you think?? Do you find the same thing?? Would like to hear your thoughts as it is the way the industry is going hate it or not. How would you address the vast difference in standards??

SJAMES - 158 Thats a very exact number, where did you hear from.

Is that including the 40 odd that they are type rating now?

NSF forgot the sixth thing; The ability to self critique.

Some of the CTC cadets I've flown with are a tad young and arrogant to have developed this one..............................................

I agree they tend to shine in the long term though.

So what about integrated ctc or Oxford guys that have turbo prop experience? Does experience not mean anything anymore. Are a significant number of pilots who are currently operating turboprops or even regional jets confined to a career of regional flying?
Especially when these guys have proved they can operate with less than twenty minute turnarounds, fly aircraft with similar approach speeds, fly continous descent flight idle descents, into cat c airfields with a wide variety of city pairs throughout Europe, some may even be prepared to pay for ratings but aren't given the opportunity.
The question is why not? Same product plus experience, what's the difference, oh and please don't say because of bad habits picked up because that's insulting to te majority of professional regional pilots.

Your first sentence sadly says it all " Experience does not mean anything anymore!"

At least at the level of moving up from your first job or moving from TP to Jet or even in my case from Jet to another Jet!!

The sad truth is as much as it pains me to write this:

As a low houred cadet willing to pay for a TR and work for less than an experienced pilot the airline gets what it wants. An F/O who'll fly the plane under the watchful eye of an experienced Capt who'll hopefully save the day if it all goes wrong.

What would the airline (Easyjet) in this case gain by employing me for instance??? I am 36, married / Children with a large Mortgage so wouldn't /couldn't work for £25k a year and from different bases. I have 1500+hrs on a 737 so would take less training and have some experience etc... but they don't care because paying me £45k a year over the cadet doesn't make them any more money.

I won't get the plane there quicker or make them more money by me flying over a low hour cadet. The conversation might be a bit more interesting for the Capt and my landing might be consistently better (don't count on it!!):E But 99.9999999% of the time it simply doesn't matter and th people in the back don't know, they save money and get the same outcome for half the cost. Like i say it guts me to write it and it is so frustrating that experience actually now disadvantages you from getting a job.....:ugh::ugh:

Had this conversation yesterday with a guy whois in banking in the City. I said it would be like your bank employing people straight out of University into middle / high management roles. It wouldn't happen he said because if we did that we wouldn't make any money, we know if we pay more for the right person we'll make more £££££! Hence why aviation is the way it is and for the forseeable future because CTC will provide a low cost option that most of the time gives an acceptable outcome.

B*gger!!

:uhoh:

What makes a good pilot?
These days: sophisticated jet, multi-crew, passenger aircraft

No.6 - ATTITUDE
although I'd make that my number one.

Sadly it doesn't matter what experience you've got, if you're prepared to stump up the cash for a rating and be treated like a cadet you can still do it. Met someone last week with a little more experience than me (just over 2000 hours) with only medium turboprop experience (albeit all glass cockpit) who did just that. Mind you he was single, in his mid 30's and didn't have a mortgage! He didn't like having to do the cadet thingy but as he explained to me, what choice did he have?? :{

The hourly rate our flexi-crew get is quite a bit higher than some people assume in this thread.

Only those flexi-crew from BMI, the others (CTC / PTF) are on much less. Flexi-crew means flexible salary scales.

100% correct. The only argument left is that this sort of behaviour by an airline is in contravention to the Equal Opportunities Act. Employers should not be allowed (by law) to discriminate against "experienced" pilots or groups of employees which are deemed less inFLEXible simply because of knowing their salary, family and stability requirements.

If this mass exploitation of workers was taking place in the British construction industry (where apprentices are in the many already), they'd be Panorama documentaries with all the daily rags up in arms.

We would expect our only real voice, B:yuk:LPA, to address this matter and put it infront of labour law chiefs but the truth as quite obviously apparent is that B:yuk:LPA would rather campaign for issues that affect a tiny minority of already well fed and paid pilots. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Unfortunately EZY are taking pilots through CTC on flexible contracts. There is no discrimination because anybody can apply to CTC for one of these, the terms are just not as attractive as they used to be.

It's rubbish, I agree, but it's nothing to do with discriminating against experience levels whatsoever.

The figures I have seen were at least 50 pounds per block hour and 60-something at higher experience levels, so 750 x 50 = 37,500 PA which isn't great, but more than hinted in this thread. 180 something for a stand by, as fas as I recall.

I think you missed the point, the vast majority of EZ's recruitment will be for low hours cadets on the FlexiCrew agreement.

[QUOTE] think that seniority is the only way to govern the airline industry fairly/QUOTE]
You keep banging on about this Norman. The truth is however that seniority for pilots only suits managers. Anything that prevents free movement of labour and makes people sit with one company for all eternity for fear of losing their spot will bring a smile to their faces. You seem to believe it prevents management stooges and cliques etc, but the reality is that it promotes mediocracy. If pilots could move freely from company to company, do you think such poor T&Cs would exist at the bottom end?

No other industry operates to such a ridiculous system. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, politicians - seniority?? They would laugh you out of town. I can only assume you have never had to swallow the bitter pill of redundancy. If you had, you would change your mind very quickly. The truth is that seniority suits YOU, as it offers you protection against having to prove yourself in the work place, but it does not benefit the pilot community as a whole, quite the opposite.

I had a chat with a management pal at BA recently. It seems the first tranche of recruitment ( don't you just love management speak) is for 80 or so pilots. The idea of taking them all from eJ in one big block was suggested and not not exactly laughed out of court.

Now that would shake things up a bit.

I doubt another 80 would change much, if the rumoured 200-250 SFO's already leaving isn't enough to make Easy recruit some experience another 80 won't change that!

Infact you can hear management now, that's another 80 SFO salaries we can half by recruiting some more CTC Cadets to replace them, even more profit for the cash strapped Easy with profits in excess of £150m !!! :ugh::ugh:

Very sad but true i fear.

Dr Eckener - you are absolutely wrong in both your understanding of seniority and the likely benefits of abandoning it. When you talk of free movement of labour, that assumes a constant size labour market that never changes from year to year. The reality of aviation is that it grows and contracts with no rhyme or reason. Any concept of a 'master seniority list' assumes that at age 22 you get a number that guides you throughout the rest of your career. It makes no allowance for aircraft type experience, regional flying, long haul etc or for extensive periods of not working due company bankruptcy, having children, loss of licence and so forth. The real world is infinitely more complicated than that where some people leave other careers to fly, companies come and go and pilots decide to leave the industry. Furthermore it makes no allowance for the initial and ongoing employability of one candidate before another outside the company. You cannot just have some guy turning up at say BA, announcing he is Global Seniority List number 245,721 and demanding his appropriate place in the promised land above some innocent chap who is, alas, stuck forever at 245,722 - despite having worked there for 15 years. Seniority means that 'Captain Special', who is the Chief Pilot's wife's brother's tennis partner does not get preferential treatment over Fred Bloggs from a working class background, who has no important mates in the company but has slaved for years to get where he is.

Your comparisons with doctors, lawyers etc are invalid on a number of counts. First of all, a doctor's or lawyer's skill set is much more difficult to evaluate against a set of critieria that are clearly laid down. A pilot's skills can be clearly determined in simulator exercises to determine if he/she has the necessary skills to be a Captain. In addition a pilot's experience can be analysed hour by hour, so that it can be determined if they have the basic minimum experience to hold a command within his company. Incidentally, ask any doctor or lawyer to tell you hand-on-heart that their promotion system is fair - it absolutely is not and is decided in many case on wining and dining key bosses and clients plus the provision of 'favours' in all their various forms. I utterly reject that approach to promotion and see the seniority system as the only way of stopping that. May we be delivered in aviation from promotion on 'merit', which in most cases means sucking up to your boss and catching his eye over a curry and a drink down-route. I know that seniority is not perfect, and checks and balances need to be in place. I also accept that seniority only works in certain industries when all promotion candidates are basically doing the same job. It is, however, infinitely better than a system of global transfers where lucky people whose sole 'skill' was to start flying Cessna 150's the week before someone else and they then have a trump card to play at will for the rest of their lives. Suddenly, that guy gets the 'nod' over a more deserving candidate who has waited years within one company for an opportunity to advance. Leave airline managers to decide 'merit' and before you know it Chief Pilot's sons are promoted ahead of everyone else and the Captains are essentially 'grace and favour' appointees, employed at the whim of some senior bod whose next door neighbour gave him a good night out at the dog races or whatever. I absolutely cannot stand all that and would back a loyalty-based seniority system every time. If you want to advance in your company, do your time, prove your worth and take your chance when it comes - which it surely will in a seniority-based system.

Superpilot
 

I have suggested and are in the process of putting together information for either "panorama" or "dispatches" regarding the state of this "industry" and the possible safety implications particularly with regard to any P2F. Lots of work to do do to anticipate the airlines response and the toothless CAA/JAA. Imagine going into hospital for a serious op and the consultant says"I,m not operating on you as a doctor straight out of med school has bunged us 35k to get some hands on time,that ok with you?"

Flieng

If you want support with anything then I'm sure you would get it from people on here, I would be happy to help in anyway.
I agree the only way anything is ever going to change is to get whats going on in the media and expose how low this industry has gone in order to save money by exploiting people entering the industry and disadvantaging those already in it!!

:ok:

Their arguments would be:

- Cadets have been in use at many airlines including BA, bmi, flybe, Thomas Cook, First Choice, Thomson, Monarch, Jet 2 amongst others.

- They have passed all of the CAA written exams and flight tests along the way.

- Simulator courses are all passed to the company and the regulatory authorities standard.

- Vigorous line training with experienced trainers

- Final line check passed to standard

They will turn our arguments about safety around and make us look like we are just interested in the salary drop of the new scheme.

How many members of the public are going to be interested in the 20-something FO who now earns 30-40k instead of 50k+...?!?

The argument about the medic is incorrect, it's more a case of "Our new med school student is being paid 30% less than he used to, but he has still gone through the same checking and exams as before, and he will be fully supervised by a highly experienced consultant. Are you happy?" Yes, of course.

I believe the argument about the drop in safety will be very hard to make stick, and the public wont care about so-called rich pilots still earning double the national average wage.

I think these schemes are absolute !!!!e and a true sign of the future working conditions for us all, but I doubt anyone outside aviation could care less.

flieng
 

To answer your point here and your question on the Jet2 thread: I do think the public would be interested but unfortunately I don't have much faith in the ability of these programme makers to make a convincing argument and if they get the message wrong then they risk long term damage to the argument. There is so much money at stake here that the airlines and as you say toothless CAA, will go to enormous lengths to prove how safe evrything is.

I remain to be corrected but I always get the impression they (programme makers) are only interested in the big dramatic soundbites whereas to address the problem properly would require one of of the old style investigative journalists to conduct some serious in depth research in order to produce a convincing argument. The Colgan crash at Buffalo N.Y. would certainly be a good starting point: Colgan Air Flight 3407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Part of the problem is that we as pilots, can't even seem to agree what the problem is or even if there is a problem, just witness the attempts at defending the shocking Jet2 package. Just think about it; the F/O salary is quoted somewhere as £41,000 (plus max £6.00 per sector) but they only get paid 70% of that so £28,700 but are also required to fork out somewher between £25k and £16k up front (depending on what you believe) How is anyone expected to live on £3,500 (not even taking tax into account) BUT some will attempt it and right there you have the recipe for "Colgan" syndrome to be played out, right here in the UK, whereby some pilots simply cannot afford proper accomodation, whilst they commute for a job which they have accepted in desperation.

Another area for such research of course is the MPL (Multi-crew Pilot Licence), yet another vehicle to produce even less experienced pilots at even less cost and heavily supported by Boeing Flight Training for one (Pretty sure Airbus won't be far behind)

I am aware however, that there is a book being written (not sure of publication date) called "Race to the bottom" but the cynical side of me says its all too late and the bean counters, aided by far too many self centred and selfish pilots have won and there is no way back from the model we now have.

Norman Stanley Fletcher

I have been in this industry a lot longer than you and I can remember a time in the seventies when there were only really 2 scheduled Jet Operators of note BEA/BOAC & BCal. The only way into BA/BOAC was through Hamble. You then entered a seniority based system with a long time to command. Promotion was not on merit just time served, no rewrd for good performance. The airlines themselves were really government employment agencies offering poor service at high cost. Competition was kept out of the market. Even ex-service pilots (and especially navigators) were effectively excluded for a while under this Soviet style system.

What has offered you opportunity and has allowed you, NSF, to advance so far is the free-market, the liberalisation of air carriers, the survival of the most astute.

Now you NSF having got yourself in a good position want a return to the seventies. I believe you may be a good old fashioned Glaswegian socialist. Do you intend that the airline industry go the way of Scottish shipbuilding, union closed shops lots of power to the unions, pesumably lots of industrial action until you get to tell the management how to run the company.

Your allegations of nepotism etc are very naive. have you never met a pilot who claims to have had his career halted by the trainer/checker he does not get on with? You think that aviation is somehow special? Insulated from the real world? How do you eliminate unfairness at that level, or any level. Your seniority system traps individuals from moving jobs and bettering themselves just as you did. And didn't you leave an airline with a seniority system to advance your career (as the system was holding you back) couldn't wait your 'fair' turn eh NSF? But you expect everyone else to?

The best way to ensure fair terms and conditions is a thriving, expanding industry with free market conditions both in the market place and the employment market. That has been my experience over the last thirty years in this industry.

Fairness! When was life fair? Under any system someone wil get screwed and others will be unfairly rewarded. At least the free market gives us a chance to compete on merit and mobilty to move on if it doesn't.

You are no longer in the employ of HMG NSF. easyJet is owned by the shareholders, the want return on capital and they expect the board to deliver. If they don't the money walks. If you don't like the way the company is run you can do the same.

Like most good socialists you want to benefit from the free market when times are good but protection from it when times are not so good.

Just how much of your lecturing here has to do with benefitting your fellow man an how much is protecting the position of NSF?

If you are that moral, you could find a seniority based company that is actually expanding or recruiting I am sure you are free to apply for a First Officers position just like everyone else.

But the real problem I have with your holier than thou, condescending, lectures on pprune is that you played the free market system to better yourself and now you want to limit others opportunity to do the same.

Oh sorry I forgot conditions were different then (exapnding free market) and you disadvantaged absoloutely no-one, ever, not one person, not even for a minute. So thats ok then.

Well said Major, could not have put it better myself!

[QUOTE]When you talk of free movement of labour, that assumes a constant size labour market that never changes from year to year/QUOTE]

No it doesn't.

[QUOTE] would suggest 5 things - aptitude, training, knowledge, skill and experience/QUOTE]

The very things that a merit based system can promote.

[QUOTE] It makes no allowance for aircraft type experience, regional flying, long haul etc or for extensive periods of not working due company bankruptcy, having children, loss of licence and so forth/QUOTE]

Your seniority system certainly does not make allowances for this. Any redundancy means 'go back to Old Kent Road'!

[QUOTE]Any concept of a 'master seniority list' assumes that at age 22 you get a number that guides you throughout the rest of your career/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? I never suggested replacing one rubbish system with another rubbish system. I am talking about MERIT. This has nothing to do with golf clubs or starry eyes over curries by the way. I completely agree with the Major. Your views are naive, perhaps even paranoid.

[QUOTE]so that it can be determined if they have the basic minimum experience to hold a command/QUOTE]

Glad to hear that EJ are not interested in the best people for the job, merely those who can just about step up to the mark. No wonder you are always late.

How does your seniority system help all those within (or more appropriately without) your company, on flexi contracts etc. I assume they have no seniority, and are therefore nothing more than second class citizens in your eyes.

The Major is right about your self serving approach, and I fear it is not worth having the argument. I can only hope that your seniority system keeps you stuck where you are, eating crap sandwiches until retirement comes.:ugh:

That's right Major! Dammit, I remember having to walk through 4 feet of snow in order to get my jet! Today's pilots are a bunch of fairies.

I remember like it was yesterday, Feb. 5 1974...Amanda one of my favorite stewardesses came to the cockpit and asked," how I liked my tea?" I replied, "damn, you stupid woman....I like it how I liked it yesterday and the day before that!" I then told her that she had no place in an aircraft, especially considering that she was stupid and pushing 30 years of age! I then gave her a tissue to wipe away a few pathetic tears and then told her to get back to work.

Major.....you are right, people like NSF show little respect for their elders and need to be put in their place.

Some rather unkind and aggressive posts. As the person you berate as being self serving is already a TRE etc he is unlikely to benefit from a seniority list. However, colleagues who have served for a number of years and reached the required standard might.
It would be quite difficult to choose ,on merit, between an external DEC and internal SFO, how would HR compare training records ( if available),performance etc from different companies?
If I, as a captain, were made redundant, is it fair that I should leapfrog someone who has worked 5 or 10 years for their company and been assessed as suitable for command? I would not feel hard done by starting in the right seat.
I think it is wrong to solely employ low experience F/Os and would prefer the mixed recruitment of a few years ago, the difficult financial situation some of the young lads are in with bankruptcy threatened is probably moving towards a less safe operation.
While cost is king, it is cheaper to promote an expensive SFO and replace them with a cadet than keep him as a SFO and recruit DEC

Here here studi.
>NSF point is more valid now then ever as the Airline has started maturing. To present a long term career to SFO's and FO's there must be allowance for loyalty.

No, it wouldn't.

The Colgan FO had over 2000 hours with over 770 on type, hardly a 200 hour cadet.

"I have suggested and are in the process of putting together information for either "panorama" or "dispatches" regarding the state of this "industry"

:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

Yet another thread that started out addressing some interesting recruitment issues and questions, only to be hijacked by the anti cadet brigade.

As Norman Stanley Fletcher has said in the past, The CTC cadet entry that people are entering Easy on is hardly comparable to the P2F schemes that Eaglejet and the ATP scheme with line training at BMI are.

Exactly, and this is the point a few on this thread are clearly missing. It isn't three years to command at easy anymore. There is a long, long list of pilots in the airline who have been here years and are suitably qualified, awaiting assessment. As the airline reduces its expansion the time spent in the RHS will increase. We don't need DECs' anymore. I agree it is a poor state of affairs that only those from CTC are allowed to join, and the company are making a mistake with their recruitment policy of F/Os.

As for comments such as

Can't you come up with something more original? Our safety record over the past 15 years speaks for itself. We clearly do have the best people for the job.

Hi all,

Newbie here, so please tread carefully... I'd heard from a friend that Oxford or doing a similar scheme, or is CTC the only route in these days?

Seniority represents both direct and indirect discrimination and once tested in the Courts should become history

From October 2011 the 2006 Age Discrimination Act will be fully implemented and the 5 year period for companies and unions to become fully compliant will be over.

Pure seniority based selection procedures in all industries, not just aviation, will become a thing of the past, and not before time, for all the good reasons mentioned in a few of the previous posts.